Kathy's Barn Conversion!

Actually no; the paper on insulation (or foil, if that's what it has) is the vapor barrier, and should be toward the side that is warmest most of the time; so in Florida, the vapor barrier goes toward the outside - in New England, vapor barriers go to the inside, just under the first layer of drywall. On the framing thing, that long a studs should have blocking somewhere near the midpoint or they will tend to flex and bow off center, making it difficult to predict where your screws should go among other things. I'm looking mainly at the really tall wall more than the slanted one.... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Actually no; the paper on insulation (or foil, if that's what it has) is the vapor barrier, and should be toward the side that is warmest most of the time; so in Florida, the vapor barrier goes toward the outside - in New England, vapor barriers go to the inside, just under the first layer of drywall.

Yes, that's what I am doing on the newly built inner wall. The paper backing will butt up against the first layer of drywall. But I'm asking about the old outer wall in the picture. That wall has nothing between it and the outdoors except the exterior siding. When insulating that wall shouldn't I put the paper backing against the outer wall so that the pink stuff is facing indoors towards my new inner wall? There has to be a vapor barrier on that wall doesn't there? I'm starting that very soon so I need to be clear.

Kathy wrote:

But I'm asking about the old outer wall in the picture. That wall has nothing between it and the outdoors except the exterior siding. When insulating that wall shouldn't I put the paper backing against the outer wall so that the pink stuff is facing indoors towards my new inner wall? There has to be a vapor barrier on that wall doesn't there? I'm starting that very soon so I need to be clear.

Kathy - there should only be 1 vapor barrier - and it should be on the wall face inside the studio - the existing wall should have batt insulation without any vapor barrier - A vapor barrier against the outside wall will cause sweating (condensation) which will rot the existing exterior sheathing and studs. Rod

rod gervais wrote:

Kathy - there should only be 1 vapor barrier - and it should be on the wall face inside the studio - the existing wall should have batt insulation without any vapor barrier - A vapor barrier against the outside wall will cause sweating (condensation) which will rot the existing exterior sheathing and studs. Rod

Ok, that's what I wasn't sure about. But without a vapor barrier on the outside wall won't there be a lot of moisture that gets the insulation wet on the inside wall? :?: Also, without paper backing how will I secure the insulation to the outside wall cavity? :?: So to recap:

• I'm stuffing both wall cavities with insulation and there will be about a 2 inch gap of air between each insulated wall. • The outside exterior wall will be insulated with R19 and NO paper backed vapor barrier. • The inside newly built wall will be insulated with R19 that DOES have a paper backed vapor barrier that will face towards the drywall layer and inside of the room.

Kathy wrote:

But without a vapor barrier on the outside wall won't there be a lot of moisture that gets the insulation wet on the inside wall? :?:

No - without a vapor barrier on the outside wall the wall cavity will have exactly the same relative humidity as the outside air - which is exactly what you want to happen. When the cold outside air reaches a warm interior surface (the inner vapor barrier) it won't condense - so it stays dry.

Also, without paper backing how will I secure the insulation to the outside wall cavity? :?:

One easy way to do this is to apply nylon strapping to the inside face of the studs - the stuff used for wrapping shipping crates - you can get rolls at Home Despot. They also make metal stays for this work - which are about 16" long thin rods that you can buy at any shop that sells insulation (Perhaps even HD). Rod

So to recap:

• I'm stuffing both wall cavities with insulation and there will be about a 2 inch gap of air between each insulated wall. • The outside exterior wall will be insulated with R19 and NO paper backed vapor barrier. • The inside newly built wall will be insulated with R19 that DOES have a paper backed vapor barrier that will face towards the drywall layer and inside of the room.

Yup - although (if it were me) I would use standard unfaced insulation on the interior face - and then apply a poly vapor barrier in lieu of the foil face. It's a much better vapor barrier without all of the little edges you have with the paper. Rod

Kathy, another thing - just how soundproof do you need your place? From the pix, it seems to me like your outer "leaf" is not too airtight to begin with, nor does it appear to be very massive (just individual boards, possibly some sort of Lap siding?? - most people here who've wanted decent isolation have first "beefed up" between studs with more mass, such as gypsum or OSB layers cut to fit between studs - this gives a heavier outer leaf for a better mass-air-mass construction and better TL. Check out Keith Sharward's thread on about page 10 or so for more on this, if you haven't already. If isolation isn't much of an issue, then don't read the first part of this :wink: ... Steve Oh, a bit more on the dynamic of vapor barrier - in a heated environment (whether by nature or by man) the heat tries to "even out" by traveling toward the colder location - when it does this, it carries any moisture (in the form of vapor) WITH it - so a heated room, when it loses heat thru the walls, also loses vapor INTO the walls - once there, it gets cold and condenses on the cooler surfaces. This leaves the inside of the wall WET, but with little or no air circulation, and stuff starts to rot/mold/mildew. This is why the vapor barrier ONLY goes to the heated side (inside in the North, Outside in the South) - That way, we don't allow MORE moisture to enter the wall from the heated space. There's more on this at the Building Sciences site, linked from the REFERENCE section... Steve

Quick question: Today is my Wenesday with Scott and we are framing more of the wall. The section we are working on has a doorway. We will be adding a second door for a double door system. The second door will be in the new interior wall we are building. If I go with a st andard 80 x 32 door size, how large of an opening do we need to leave for a "rough opening"? We are working now and hope to get to it in the next hour or so. I'll check back to see if there is an answer. Thanks!

This depends on the door you get - most typically run 2-1/2" larger in each dimension than the stated size of the door, but the best advice I can give you is BUY THE DOOR FIRST. Each manufacturer normally states the rough opening size, which can vary depending on the way they do their frame, etc. For a studio, solid slab EXTERIOR doors work a lot better than interior ones, and by "solid slab" I do NOT mean a "stile and rail" type with recessed panels, I mean a flat-sided, 1-3/4" thick SLAB of solid wood. A pre-hung exterior door with good quality threshold, etc, will give a lot better isolation - but don't "wimp out" on framing, these are heavy. I did a sketch of rough framing for another member here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 2&start=15 Check the drawing about half-way down that page. If this seems like overkill, remember that your seals will only work if the door doesn't sag after you've made the seals work. Here are a few more informational links that should be helpful - http://www.hometips.com/content/hinged_intro.html (The door shown in the picture is exactly what you do NOT want - nowhere NEAR as much mass as a full-thickness slab type door. You may have to look harder for the slab type door, but DO it; there's no comparison between the two types for sound control. Install guide - http://www.hometips.com/articles/door_install.html HTH... Steve

knightfly wrote:

the best advice I can give you is BUY THE DOOR FIRST. For a studio, solid slab EXTERIOR doors work a lot better than interior ones, and by "solid slab" I do NOT mean a "stile and rail" type with recessed panels, I mean a flat-sided, 1-3/4" thick SLAB of solid wood.

Ok, just came in from the barn and saw your advice. We are stpping for the day at this point. We finished framing the back slanted wall and a few other odds and ends. About the doors: there are 2 awesome deals on ebay right now that I would love to grab if they are the right door for me. Can you please check these out and tell me if they will work? The problem I have is that I need 4 doors and I only have about $2500 left in my Home Depot budget. I need more lumbar, paint, nails, carpet, etc.....I can't blow it all on doors. So, a cheap way out is what I need or I have to start compromising and eliminating doors. Here's the ebay links: http://cgi.ebay.com/New-unfinished-soli ... dZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/METAL-DOORS-EXTERIO ... dZViewItem P.S. Steve, thanks for the tips from the Hometime site and the link to the drawing you did of the door framing. Just so you know, I had visited all of those before posting my question about measurements (trying to do my homework and research) and I printed out your sketch as well as bookmarked the DIY info on the websites concerning how to frame and hang doors.

knightfly wrote:

On the framing thing, that long a studs should have blocking somewhere near the midpoint or they will tend to flex and bow off center, making it difficult to predict where your screws should go among other things. I'm looking mainly at the really tall wall more than the slanted one.... Steve

Done! :D

knightfly wrote:

Kathy, another thing - just how soundproof do you need your place? From the pix, it seems to me like your outer "leaf" is not too airtight to begin with, nor does it appear to be very massive (just individual boards, possibly some sort of Lap siding?? - most people here who've wanted decent isolation have first "beefed up" between studs with more mass, such as gypsum or OSB layers cut to fit between studs - this gives a heavier outer leaf for a better mass-air-mass construction and better TL.

You're correct. The bare interior of the barn you are seeing in the pictures is indeed some old wide planks and nothing more. Attached to the other side of them is the actual exterior siding of the house! But isolation is not THAT much of an issue for me. It is to some degree but the truth is, if I followed just half of the priniciples and techniques learned here I would have decent enough sound proofing for my needs. Doubling up the walls by building a whole new second set on the inside of the room, doubling up the drywall instead of a traditional single layer, and doubling the plywood layers on the floor (as well as other little things along the way like extra insulation, roofing paper on the floor, etc..) are already providing me with a much better studio and should be just fine. However, it would be nice if I could have the ultimate soundproof enclosure built to perfection. Since I know my starting point won't allow for that I am going to be satisfied with any and all improvements and progress made. I'm confident that I can get close enough to "wow" the average joe into believing we are recording inside of Fort Knox. Whether you, Rod, Andy, Keith, Dan, Marc, Len and everyone else in here would believe that is another story! As far as beefing up the existing barn walls, I think I might cut some more mass to attach to the walls before putting the insulation up. We'll see. These woman's hands are gettin' awful tired these days.....

These woman's hands are gettin' awful tired these days Yeah, but remember - anything that doesn't KILL ya makes ya STRONGER... :? (It just takes longer for that to happen than I'd like :cry: ) The wood slab doors at your first link are a good buy and exactly what you want (135 pounds each is SOLID) - the downside is, no frames or hardware. This means you'll need to find some door frame (custom molding prices, haven't bought any in a long time so not sure how much), then measure this material EXACTLY and build your own EXTERIOR sized finish door frames, mount the hinges (with that heavy a door, 4 would be my choice along with longer screws) - Also, for inner doors that don't require security a push plate and a "barn door" type handle with a hydraulic closer will give you better isolation. Home Depot sells closers for about $50-60. If you do this, you can fill the doorknob hole with Fixall and eliminate a sure sound leak. What it comes down to is whether you're willing to become an accurate enough finish carpenter to build your own door frames and hang your ownd doors; or, another possibility is to find an exterior pre-hung door and just replace the wimpy one with your heavy slabs (and a couple extra hinges) - As to the metal "solid core" link, at that weight they must be filled with styrofoam. I'd forget it. Maybe you can ask Scott if he's ever built frames like that; having an experienced hand around would sure make it more of a possibility... Steve

Forgot to make this clear; there are two basic types of hardware and frames and doors - referred to as "interior" and "exterior". Interior doors, frames, hinges, and some doorknobs, are all based on a door thickness of 1-3/8" - most interior doors are either of the "stile and rail" type or a flat (but HOLLOW) type. These are nearly worthless for sound control as is (but work pretty good as a SINGLE door when modified per my directions in the REFERENCE section on doors) Exterior doors, frames, hinges, etc, are all based on a nominal door thickness of 1-3/4", not 1-3/8" like the interior versions - the hinges are wider, deeper, thicker, just generally beefier because code requires exterior doors to be "solid core" - With the exception of the SLAB type doors you found on Ebay, a lot of these doors are a joke security-wise, and sound wise too. Some of these "solid" panels (in between the stiles and rails of the thicker part of the door) are only maybe 1/4" to 3/8" thick - so while they're "solid", they're still WIMPY... Main reason for this post is to make sure you watch what you buy for hardware - hinges and frames aren't all the same, and you need to match everything carefully. That's one of the reasons the pre-hung doors are so popular with everyone; you just slide the whole thing into your rough opening, snug it up with shims, check for level and plumb a few dozen times, then drive some fasteners thru into the rough frame, put on wallboard, add molding and you're done. (BTW, this WON'T work for studio the same way; where those shims go in a normal house, so follows the sound. This, and any extruded door jams, etc, must be filled with mass or it's "leakin' lena" time. Gotta run, hope this helps... Steve

knightfly wrote:

The wood slab doors at your first link are a good buy and exactly what you want (135 pounds each is SOLID) - the downside is, no frames or hardware. This means you'll need to find some door frame (custom molding prices, haven't bought any in a long time so not sure how much), then measure this material EXACTLY and build your own EXTERIOR sized finish door frames What it comes down to is whether you're willing to become an accurate enough finish carpenter to build your own door frames and hang your ownd doors Maybe you can ask Scott if he's ever built frames like that; having an experienced hand around would sure make it more of a possibility... Steve

Just got off the phone with him. That would be a clear "NO". He has no clue how to do that and doesn't want to try and I don't blame him. Without hardware and frames he told me to run the other way. I suppose I could hire out contractor help but cost is an issue. Plus, is that a normal carpentry type job or do I have to look for a specialist for doors?

; or, another possibility is to find an exterior pre-hung door and just replace the wimpy one with your heavy slabs (and a couple extra hinges) -

Yeah but the problem with that is that these doors on ebay are 102 inches tall....that's not standard height, right? I can't just swap them out with a pre hung door. I just know that is going to be a headache to match them up to work with the frame. I don't know what I'm going to do. Honestly, I think we'll just rough in a door opening for now because we are at that wall and can't stop progress. There are TWO doors in that wall. One goes to the house, one to the driveway. I may just have to live with the current doors there now until there's significant money to add the second interior set. The house door first leads to a mud room porch and then there's an additional door to the entry to the kitchen. So we are talking two doors now before even being in the house. Why do I need another door there? To block sound just to the mudroom? That's fine and you honestly cannot hear me blasting my iPod thru a speaker system out there when I'm working so that's the good news. The other door to the driveway is what it is. We'll leave two openings for future doors. I still have to consider the door for the vocal booth AND a door between the control room and live room. I'm tired and have had it for the day. My brain and body need a break so I'll approach this again tomorrow. Thanks for all your help.

Man, not sure how I missed that height; you'd need to cut over 22" off each door. Guess I never expected such a variation. Probably for now, your plan is the way to go; if you make rough openings 2-1/2" wider than nominal (2'10-1/2" for 2'8" doors) and an inch taller, you should be good. If your doors end up being a little bit taller, you can always cut the bottom of the jam AND the door if necessary - then, hopefully you'll get lucky and find some pre-hung exterior slab doors cheap... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Probably for now, your plan is the way to go; if you make rough openings 2-1/2" wider than nominal (2'10-1/2" for 2'8" doors) and an inch taller, you should be good.Steve

I think it was on the Hometime site that I read you should allow 6 inches wider and 3 inches taller when leaving a rough opening. Why do you say 2 1/2 and 1 inch?

Kathy if you left the rough opening that big you wouldn't have anything to nail your door frame into.

They are used to having folks block or shim between the jams with all kinds of nonsense, which you dont want to do. I guess they figure no one can frame a square and plummb opening. You want the opening to be as tight and solid (with materials) as possible to not weaken its strength or sound proofing mass. In homes they dont take this into consideration, because you have non insulated big airgap in your wall anyway. Tom

DreaminDrumBeats wrote:

Kathy if you left the rough opening that big you wouldn't have anything to nail your door frame into.

tmix wrote:

They are used to having folks block or shim between the jams with all kinds of nonsense, which you dont want to do. I guess they figure no one can frame a square and plummb opening. You want the opening to be as tight and solid (with materials) as possible to not weaken its strength or sound proofing mass. In homes they dont take this into consideration, because you have non insulated big airgap in your wall anyway. Tom

Thanks to both of you for bringing this to my attention. Just in time, I might add. I'm up and showered and waiting for Scott who is coming again today to do some more framing and we will work on that wall that has the door opening to the driveway. I guess we'll just leave a rough opening for the future. 2 1/2 inches wider and 1 inch taller if I am framing for a 32 x 80 door. I assume the same applies if I choose to frame for a 36 x 80 door? But why would I want a larger door? That just means more of a weaker opening for sound to pass thru, right? So, the smaller the door the better I presume? The goal is to leave more wall up than door, correct?

By the way, here's a couple of pics to show the area that we are framing today. This is the next section just to the left of that long tall straight wall we built earlier this week. You can see that first section we framed in one of the pictures to the right. This door leads outdoors to the driveway (where the RV is parked in my colorful diagram that Marc got a chuckle out of) :) When you open the door you have to step up immediately as the new floor is elevated about 14 inches. That's where I would like to put a second door.

Those sizes I got from one manufacturer; here's a more generic view http://doityourself.com/info/framing.htm Specifically the 4th paragraph, and the LAST; but as Tom pointed out, the vast majority of info on this you'd find on the web is NOT aimed at studio construction. I guess bottom line here is, if you gotta frame before having the doors on site, leave 2" wider each direction. However, you WILL want to wait til you have your doors/casings on site before you drywall; things like amount of offset of the casing for multiple layers of drywall, filling solid between rough opening and casing BEFORE drywalling, etc, will require this... Steve

Oh, sorry; missed one of your questions - door size. The main problem with doors, assuming they're heavy slabs, isn't the size of the door; it's the seal. A solid core door at 1-3/4" thick has a bit more mass than two layers of 5/8" drywall, so the m-a-m performance would be a bit better than two layers of drywall each side; this is true whether a 2 foor or a 4 foot wide door, the only thing being that the wider door would have a bit more seal, therefore a bit more loss. The upside of wider doors is moving gear in and out; I have 4 foot doors in my old studio, and I would never do anything less (at least for a live room) - it's just so nice being able to move large bass amps, pianos, organs, etc, without having to stop and say "gee, which way can we turn this so it'll go through the door??" Just a thought... Steve

knightfly wrote:

I guess bottom line here is, if you gotta frame before having the doors on site, leave 2" wider each direction.

Well, it's too late for that now. I went with your earlier answer and framed out an opening 2 1/2 wider and 1 inch taller. I will have a photo a little later. I hope that 's going to be okay now.

Kathy, It should be fine. The door casing is typically 3/4 wood(each side) plus a little bit of space they leave around the door so it is not wood to wood tight. So it might be an 1 and 5/8ths or so wider than the door. So if you left 2.5 inches you might have to add some 3/4 thick wood (like a 1 x4 or 1x6) to the side of the opening. I got overzealous one time and measured the door frame and built the opening exactly the same........ Man... just a little warpage in the wood made me spend hours sanding and chiseling to make it fit without binding. Congrats on your project! I am sure it seems like forever before it is done, but it will be worth the effort. At least that is what I am telling myself about my own studio buil project right now. My son and I are on Spring break putting the roof and shingles on the outer shell. Miles to go....... Tom

tmix wrote:

Kathy, It should be fine. The door casing is typically 3/4 wood(each side) plus a little bit of space they leave around the door so it is not wood to wood tight. So it might be an 1 and 5/8ths or so wider than the door. So if you left 2.5 inches you might have to add some 3/4 thick wood (like a 1 x4 or 1x6) to the side of the opening.

That's good to hear. I'm sure I'll have the energy to deal with it all when the time arrives to actually put the door in. Right now I'm just beat and can't deal with "problem scenarios". Framing is done for the day. I think it turned out well. Photos below.

Congrats on your project! I am sure it seems like forever before it is done, but it will be worth the effort. At least that is what I am telling myself about my own studio buil project right now. My son and I are on Spring break putting the roof and shingles on the outer shell. Miles to go....... Tom

Thanks, Tom. Do you have a project thread here? What is it called? I'm trying to find time to read everyone's when possible.