Kathy's Barn Conversion!

Kathy wrote:

**Ok, for my setup - what EXACTLY should I run?**

Kathy, I'm not trying to beg off on answering your questions but I think you are going to have to do a little of your own research on this subject. As far as I know, there is only one HVAC expert that visits the board (Rod). You might want to read the part of Sharward's thread where he was discussing this for his room. What you can do is check out a few places like "budgetac.com" and the like that sell complete systems to end users (not really a good idea) and look at some of their reference links. It will tell you things like how many "tons" of A/C you need per sq ft of space, how often you need to exchange the fresh air in the room, etc. I don't think anyone is going to have the answers for your particular situation at their finger tips. A quick Google search for HVAC or A/C will bring up a lot of links. At this point in your build, you only need to figure out roughly where the registers are going to go and where the main unit will be.

Kathy wrote:

•Insulated ducting comes in what sizes and brands and what exactly should I use?

See above. Do the research. You might call out an HVAC company and have them give you an estimate for a system. Just as a point of reference, in my studio (about 1500 sq ft, 5 rooms/areas to do, $6,000. That was the system, installation, ducting, permits, etc. You need to make SURE that they understand what you are trying to do because they are not going to have recording studio experience. As I said before, in a normal house installation, each room has a supply register and then one return register for the whole house. Since your rooms will (hopefully) be air tight, you'll have to have both supply and return vents in each room. They also need to know that there will be NO FRESH AIR in the rooms so ventalation will have to be put in/taken out of the A/C system or people will start dying from lack of oxygen.

Kathy wrote:

•One supply line and one return line for each room is good enough for me, yes?

Probably. I put two of each in my control room and main room, but only one each in my vocal booth and drum booth.

Kathy wrote:

•Should I throw a return and supply in the vocal booth anyway?

Since the venting is so cheap (relatively speaking), I'd put the ducting/vents in the vocal booth. In a small room with the door closed, you can raise the temperature to an uncomfortable level in just a few minutes with only body heat.

Kathy wrote:

•Do I secure it with bracing or anything or just lay it on top of the plastic?

You should be able to get away with just laying it on the plastic. The flex ductiing I'm talking about is insulated (available at HD by the way). The only issue is that you don't want to kink it when you bend it up from the plastic to the vent in the floor. You also want to GENTLY "snake" it a little so there isn't a straight line from the register to the unit. Helps keep the sound from traveling down the ducting and into other rooms.

len-morgan wrote:

To maintain your isolation, you'll want to run SEPARATE flex ducts from each of the rooms all the way to the HVAC system.

Kathy wrote:

But where will that be? How do I know that now? Can you maybe tell me what these "units" look like, how big, how many, and where they are "most likely" to go? I can make an educated guess as to where the install will be and run the ducts there and hope for the best. I am having a subpanel of electricity put in this spring so one of the breakers could end up being dedicated for this???

As to how big, this is where your research will give you the answers. The unit will have to go outside and be ducted inside. This not a DIY job. You'll have to take heating and A/C into account. No matter how mild your summers are, you are more than likely going to NEED A/C because your equipment and bodies in a sealed room WILL generate an enormous amount of heat. This is not something that can be easily (and effectively) retrofitted after the fact. If I were to take an educated guess, I'd suggest at a minimum, 1 return vent in the floor of each room and a supply vent in each room in the ceiling (and at the opposite end of the room). You want to use the biggest (within reason) ducting you can (I used 8" diameter except for the vocal booth which used 6"). Here is where you might have to educate your HVAC man because in homes these days, they like to use high velocity small diameter (like 4") ducting because they can run it between the studs. The problem is that the smaller diameter, the faster the air has to move through it to provide the same amount of air. Fast moving air is your enemy because the whistling WILL get into your microphones. 8" will probably be fine for you and this size will also have a nice slow air velocity. Your registers should probably NOT be the type where you can adjust the flow with a little handle because those little moveable vanes will also whistle.

len-morgan wrote:

You don't need to "design" the whole system right now but putting this ducting in the floor now while it's "easy" will save you some work later. Some things you just can't postpone.

You probably CANNOT get away will "room air conditioners" for a couple of reasons: 1) Isolation. If you look at the front of one, you can see daylight on the other side! You might as well just cut a hole in your wall. 2) Noise. They are extremely noisy. 3) No ventalation. These units recycle the same (stale) air over and over and there is no provision to get fresh air into the stream (or to take bad air out). I would suggest that see if you can find someone with a central HVAC system and take a good look at it. See how big it is, how the ducting works, etc. Perhaps your carpenter/policeman friend can take you on a field trip to see a few installations. If he does contruction for other people, he more than likely is friends with someone that installs HVAC equipment that might be willing to come over and give your place a look without having to have a contract in hand.

Kathy wrote:

Since I will have two rooms (control and live) I guess I will need two systems? Or one system that works both rooms - do they call that a split?

No, one central system. A "split" unit has part of the system ouside the building and part inside the building with a couple of small ducts (4 or 5") between the two. These are the same as "room units" or window units in that have NO provision for fresh air. It should also be noted that I think building codes everywhere require that there be a separate electrical box AT THE UNIT so that it can be disconnected and worked on safely (i.e., the service man doesn't flip the breaker in the house and then someone comes along and turns it back on while he's holding onto the wires). You'll probably need a 220 VAC connection for the A/C part too. You'll have to decide what kind of heat you'll need (electrical/oil/gas/nuclear reaction, etc). Hope that helps! len PLEASE don't make the mistake of thinking that you won't need fresh air.

len-morgan wrote:

Kathy wrote:

**Ok, for my setup - what EXACTLY should I run?**

Kathy, I'm not trying to beg off on answering your questions but I think you are going to have to do a little of your own research on this subject... I don't think anyone is going to have the answers for your particular situation at their finger tips.

Hi Len, Thanks for your reply. In no way am I trying to get around doing my own research, just so you know that right off the bat. I'm usually pretty thorough and will do so for sure. I was just looking for a quick answer on the kind of ducting I can go pick up now to run under the floor while it is opened up. In terms of the unit itself and all the educating I need to do for myself about how air and heat actually works, there will be many long nights ahead on the computer for that. I was hoping though, that no matter what the end result is on my choices, they all will require the same basic ducting stuff and I can lay that down now. That's why I wanted to get the size and specifics on what to go get. In my mind, I figured getting the ducting was as simple as going over to Home Depot this weekend and getting the stuff, laying it down, and being done with that until further notice. All completely done in ignorant bliss before acquiring the knowledge up the road on the entire HVAC situation. I just was trying to avoid getting to Home Depot and discovering all these different types of ducting, a wide variety of choices and applications, and not knowing what to pick. I am hoping that there is a "universal" type that applies and it's not a huge selection since I'm limited in what I know at this stage. Sort of like the plastic sheeting I am laying down now for the vapor barrier. Never seen or heard of the stuff before in my life but once I realized I needed it, I was lucky that it was a basic supply that didn't have a lot of variation or required making decision about. Chose heavy duty, chose my size, that's it. Will ducting be the same? Choose size (8"), choose length, make sure it is insulated, that's it for now? That's really my basic question.

At this point in your build, you only need to figure out roughly where the registers are going to go and where the main unit will be.

Easy enough.

You should be able to get away with just laying it on the plastic. The flex ductiing I'm talking about is insulated (available at HD by the way). The only issue is that you don't want to kink it when you bend it up from the plastic to the vent in the floor.

Do I need to buy the vents now too or just the flex ducting?

len-morgan wrote:

If I were to take an educated guess, I'd suggest at a minimum, 1 return vent in the floor of each room and a supply vent in each room in the ceiling (and at the opposite end of the room).

You mean, in the future when I am doing the ceilings, make sure I place the ceiling supply on the opposite end of the room from where I am now placing the floor return, correct?

It should also be noted that I think building codes everywhere require that there be a separate electrical box AT THE UNIT so that it can be disconnected and worked on safely (i.e., the service man doesn't flip the breaker in the house and then someone comes along and turns it back on while he's holding onto the wires).

Well, I will be having a subpanel out in the barn. But does it have to be on the same wall as the unit will be outside? The way I am thinking, I will place the HVAC system in the back of the barn (east wall, backyard wooded area) but the electrical panel is on the front wall of the barn (west wall) facing the driveway and next to the entry door. Does that even matter? As long as it's a subpanel that is away from the house main panel is all that matters, right? I don't need to have the panel and the unit kissing each other, right?

You'll probably need a 220 VAC connection for the A/C part too. You'll have to decide what kind of heat you'll need (electrical/oil/gas/nuclear reaction, etc).

I heat with oil forced air in my home. Someone mentioned just adding additional ducting to my main house for this but that is something I don't want to do. That sounds like a big overhaul to me and way too much money. Plus, my house has no air conditioning at all. So, the fact that I have an oil tank now probably has no bearing on what I decide to do for the barn. Electricity is so expensive. I think maybe having a propane gas tank would be an option. This whole HVAC thing wasn't even in the budget even though I knew it was a showstopper. All other materials and supplies for the project are covered. This is still, as of right now, unfunded. For that reason I will obviously be going with the smallest and cheapest setup I can get.......WITHOUT compromising the undeniable facts that I need fresh air and both heat and air without question. Thanks for your help Len. I'm back out to the barn now today to resume the plastic laying. Will check back later....

Kathy, 1st let's talk duct - I don't really care for flext duct runs - they tend to compress in areas that we don't want compression - which means an increase in velocity - which means an increase in noise. You're much better off with something akin to John Mansville Super duct. If you're doing heat and AC - then you should have high returns and low returns - high for the sumer time - low for the winter time. Grilles in floors are not highly reccomended because they collect dirt and dust and mites - low returns are much better suited in the side walls. Fresh air is an issue - and should be ducted from the outside to just prior to the return air side of your air handler unit - which also requires a relief duct (again to the outside) be installed at leasst 10' away from that (also on the return air duct) this can be adjusted with a barometric damper to control the pressure release......... otherwise you will limit the amount of fresh air you can draw into the building. One nice - fairly inexpensive way you can acheive this would be if you have a spare area that you could use as a cooling/heating chamber - a seperate room that you could install a through the wall heat pump - or even just a standard thru wall air conditioner - along with a small boiler that ran to hot water baseboard in the chasmber. You could then just run your duct and let it use the room as a large plenum - use a fan only on the return duct - which tends to pull the sound away from you. Same thing in this case though - you want high and low supply runs inside the chamber - high and low return runs in the rooms - bacasue in summer you want to pull the cold air off the floor of the chamber - in winter the heat from near the ceiling - and just the opposite in the rooms for the return air. I hope this helps a bit. BTW - the disconnect has to be within view of the equipment - saves people from getting zapped. Rod.

rod gervais wrote:

Kathy, 1st let's talk duct - I don't really care for flext duct runs - they tend to compress in areas that we don't want compression - which means an increase in velocity - which means an increase in noise. You're much better off with something akin to John Mansville Super duct.

Hi Rod, Thanks so much for stepping in with your expertise. Ok, so this John Mansville Super Duct is available where? I did a search on Yahoo and your name and posts came up everywhere! But there didn't seem to be a resource for the product itself. I checked Home Depot's website as well.

If you're doing heat and AC - then you should have high returns and low returns - high for the sumer time - low for the winter time.

So then, NOT just one return per room, TWO. Do I understand this correctly? Do I still only need one supply vent per room?

Grilles in floors are not highly reccomended because they collect dirt and dust and mites - low returns are much better suited in the side walls.

Ok, then the low return goes in the low part of the wall. And the high return goes in the upper part of the wall or in the ceiling? Am I getting this confused with the supply?

One nice - fairly inexpensive way you can acheive this would be if you have a spare area that you could use as a cooling/heating chamber - a seperate room that you could install a through the wall heat pump - or even just a standard thru wall air conditioner - along with a small boiler that ran to hot water baseboard in the chasmber. You could then just run your duct and let it use the room as a large plenum - use a fan only on the return duct - which tends to pull the sound away from you. Same thing in this case though - you want high and low supply runs inside the chamber - high and low return runs in the rooms - bacasue in summer you want to pull the cold air off the floor of the chamber - in winter the heat from near the ceiling - and just the opposite in the rooms for the return air.

I DO have a small bathroom downstairs that is on the other side of the south wall of the barn. In fact, the builders "bumped out" an area of the barn wall with extra insulation and drywall for that little bathroom on the other side. It annoyingly extends a foot into my barn space (aka my control room). It also has a washer and dryer in it. It's very small and I don't know if I have that much room to put anything else in there but that is a possibility if it's recommended to me. Otherwise, I'll have to put a unit outside.

I hope this helps a bit. Rod.

Yes, I appreciate your input. While I continue to absorb more about the heating and air process I'm probably going to get more confused before the fog lifts (seems to be a trait I've discovered about myself on these boards recently). For the moment, I need to try and clarify the supply/return facts - how many and where they go - and then find the ducting to put in place in the floor before we seal it up.

Kathy, the multiples I am refering to are returns - as to how many supply registers you need - distribution is a function of room size - and I do not really kow how large your rooms are.. As far as the transfer room goes - it would really need to be dedicated - a bathroom wouldn't work - so that one is out for you. The do make some very quiet mini-split systems - you might want to consider that. A mini-split still places the compressors outside of the building - but an air handler mounts inside of the room on a wall. There is no ducting required with these systems. Even if they were too noisy for when you recorded - if you think about it - each piece of a recording session only lasts a few minutes - then you sit - you plan the next cut - you discuss what went wrong - or what felt so right - and then you record another 3 or 4 minute song. So you could always install a kill switch at your desk to turn off the HVAC for just that few minutes - turning it back on as you turn off your recorder. If you're just practicing - - a little bit of background noise is meaningless. In the control room -during mixdown - if you have a constant background noise - as long as it isn't REALLY noisy - you mind learns to mask it out........ and seeing as it's the mix time - it isn't like it will get into your recording. Recently - this has become my 2nd least expensive suggestion. These systems do require a couple of 2 or 3" penetrations into the outside world for freahs air supply and releif. - but with care that the effect of that can be minimized. Rod

rod gervais wrote:

Kathy, The do make some very quiet mini-split systems - you might want to consider that.

Yes, this is the term I had heard and that was what I was just asking about in a previous post. I mistakenly called it just a split, but mini-split was the term I remember now.

A mini-split still places the compressors outside of the building - but an air handler mounts inside of the room on a wall. There is no ducting required with these systems. Even if they were too noisy for when you recorded - if you think about it - each piece of a recording session only lasts a few minutes - then you sit - you plan the next cut - you discuss what went wrong - or what felt so right - and then you record another 3 or 4 minute song. So you could always install a kill switch at your desk to turn off the HVAC for just that few minutes - turning it back on as you turn off your recorder. If you're just practicing - - a little bit of background noise is meaningless.

I absolutely LOVE THIS IDEA. It sounds so painfree for me. No ducting, no crap to learn and deal with. THIS is beautiful.

In the control room -during mixdown - if you have a constant background noise - as long as it isn't REALLY noisy - you mind learns to mask it out........ and seeing as it's the mix time - it isn't like it will get into your recording.

Just ONE problem there might be....how much background noise in comparison to a computer is there? The reason why I ask is because I am SOOOOOOO sick of my Macs noise in the background. They are really whiny and fatiguing on the ears. I just recently had the good fortune of setting up my temporary bedroom studio in such a way that the walk in closet is holding the two Mac towers. I close the door and it's like heaven. So quiet. For the real studio in the barn, we are placing the computer towers out of the control room - in the live room actually, - BUT....they will be placed inside of a built in bench that wraps around the control room wall underneath the glass. The bench will act as a seat for players to sit on as well as storage and the computers will be housed nicely in there. It won't be soundproof but it will dull the noise more than enough so that it won't be picked up thru mics or recording. And I CERTAINLY won't hear them in the control room. So.....after all that thinking and consideration to make sure I don't have computer whir in my ears - how does the mini-split compare? Is it a more comforting sound to begin with? Because I can handle that. I'm the kind of person who has to sleep with a fan on at night even in the dead of winter because I like the white noise. I don't like the silence at night. But I can't stand the sound of the computers in my office or studio. It is brutal on the ears for music for hours on end. Tell me it's softer than a computer.....quieter.....easier to live with? And I should consider that I can shut it anytime I like without affecting my work....UNLIKE the computer!

Recently - this has become my 2nd least expensive suggestion. These systems do require a couple of 2 or 3" penetrations into the outside world for freahs air supply and releif. - but with care that the effect of that can be minimized. Rod

I'm going to price these. Then I want to pick some brains on the best way possible to minimize the unfortunate need to penetrate the outside world. Thanks for the suggestion, Rod!

Kathy wrote:

Just ONE problem there might be....how much background noise in comparison to a computer is there? The reason why I ask is because I am SOOOOOOO sick of my Macs noise in the background. They are really whiny and fatiguing on the ears. I just recently had the good fortune of setting up my temporary bedroom studio in such a way that the walk in closet is holding the two Mac towers. I close the door and it's like heaven. So quiet. For the real studio in the barn, we are placing the computer towers out of the control room - in the live room actually, - BUT....they will be placed inside of a built in bench that wraps around the control room wall underneath the glass. The bench will act as a seat for players to sit on as well as storage and the computers will be housed nicely in there. It won't be soundproof but it will dull the noise more than enough so that it won't be picked up thru mics or recording. And I CERTAINLY won't hear them in the control room. So.....after all that thinking and consideration to make sure I don't have computer whir in my ears - how does the mini-split compare? Is it a more comforting sound to begin with? Because I can handle that. I'm the kind of person who has to sleep with a fan on at night even in the dead of winter because I like the white noise. I don't like the silence at night. But I can't stand the sound of the computers in my office or studio. It is brutal on the ears for music for hours on end. Tell me it's softer than a computer.....quieter.....easier to live with? And I should consider that I can shut it anytime I like without affecting my work....UNLIKE the computer!

Kathy, I would describe it as much softer - but the degree of quiet is a function of the amount you wish to invest in the system - I would seriously suggest you listen to them run before you make your choice of gear........ or provide me with the sones rating and I will translate that into a noise level you will understand. Understand - the noise of a computer is very different on the face of it.......... BTW - these are available as true HVAC systems - so they cover the Heat side of HVAC as well as air conditioning. But - the heat is electric copil - so you will have to be willing to settle for electricity bills....... Sincerely, Rod

Here's a link to a blowout on minisplit systems http://www.ductlesshvacsupply.com/ambiance.html and their regular site which has more info is http://www.ductlesshvacsupply.com The whole mini split solution seems perfect for me. The more I read, the more I like. They come in dual zone, tri zone, quad zone?? That means being able to control atmosphere in the control room, live room, and even a little system in the vocal booth! They are about $1500 to $2000 from what I see - maybe more but I'm going to try to stay with the lowest possible. Since I didn't have ANY budget for this to start with and was scared about thousands of dollars being needed, I'm quite pleased that I might be able to get by with heating and cooling several zones for $1500. This DOES address the issue of fresh air as well from what I see so that's a huge relief as well. So, I will be looking now for models and such. The links I provided above were to units being discontinued and blown out for like $1200 or less...if they are any good maybe I should consider doing something now. One question Rod (or whomever feels qualified to answer): The smallest units are 12,000 btus and I believe they said something about that being for one ton? Anyways, how do I know what size I would need? There is apparently a great concern of not oversizing for various reasons so I guess smaller is better. My whole barn is 25 x 15. After construction, the control room will be about 14 x 14 with a 7 foot ceiling. The live room will be 10 x 14 with sloped vaulted ceilings starting at 7 feet and reaching as high as 15 feet. Inside that live room space will sit a free standing vocal booth 4 x 5. I won't need to heat/cool the live room very much and barely ever on the vocal booth. The live room would only need temp control due to the drumkit residing in there. The control room would need the most temp control and the equipment keeps it warm as well as the fact that I don't like much heat. I will use more air. Any ballpark on how big a unit I should get?

Mini splits in and of themselves don't provide any fresh air -- they only condition the air inside the room(s). In my thread I detail a plan where I will be using a mini split for air conditioning and a heat exchanger with big beefy silencers for ventilation required (1) by code and (2) to not suffocate.

sharward wrote:

Mini splits in and of themselves don't provide any fresh air -- they only condition the air inside the room(s). In my thread I detail a plan where I will be using a mini split for air conditioning and a heat exchanger with big beefy silencers for ventilation required (1) by code and (2) to not suffocate.

Shar buddy, There are mini-splits that can provide fresh air as well. Example:

36500 BTU Friedrich 10 SEER Ceiling Suspended Mini Split System $2,815.80 S36CE 36,500 BTU/h Ultraquiet operation - Ductless systems are in sharp contrast to other types of air conditioners where the rush of air from ducted vents can be annoying, or where compressor noise of window units can be objectionable Simple controls - You decide what room conditions to set for your own personal comfort. And with state-of-the-art electronics, system controls constantly monitor and maintain selected settings Security advantage - Only a small 3 inch hole is needed for connecting indoor and outdoor units. No worries about intrusion through window installations or wall openings. Low ambient cooling - Most models feature built-in controls that allow the unit to cool even when outdoor temperatures fall to 0°F. An important feature typically required for computer, telecom and electronic gear rooms, or any other room requiring year-round cooling Includes convenient wireless remote control featuring 24-hour timer, sleep timer, auto, cool, dry and fan modes, and 3 fan speeds plus auto-fan Standard features include air louvers, auto-restart, washable/reusable air filters, auto-shut flaps, low ambient operation and fresh air capability

Sincerely, Rod

rod gervais wrote:

sharward wrote:

Mini splits in and of themselves don't provide any fresh air -- they only condition the air inside the room(s). In my thread I detail a plan where I will be using a mini split for air conditioning and a heat exchanger with big beefy silencers for ventilation required (1) by code and (2) to not suffocate.

Shar buddy, There are mini-splits that can provide fresh air as well. Sincerely, Rod

PHEW! Thank goodness. I had also heard or been led to believe before that mini splits did not solve the fresh air problem. That's why I was so happy today to hear from you that they DID provide that function. My heart sank when I first read Keith's post... So then, I guess maybe not ALL minis will address that issue? I hope that most do and that my choices are not severely narrowed to just a couple that offer the whole package.

Kathy wrote:

So then, I guess maybe not ALL minis will address that issue? I hope that most do and that my choices are not severely narrowed to just a couple that offer the whole package.

Kathy, no - not all units offer that - however enough do that you still have some decent options. Understand though - one again - care must be taken with the through penetrations to assure isolation. Rod

rod gervais wrote:

Shar buddy, There are mini-splits that can provide fresh air as well. Example:

36500 BTU Friedrich 10 SEER Ceiling Suspended Mini Split System $2,815.80 S36CE 36,500 BTU/h Ultraquiet operation - Ductless systems are in sharp contrast to other types of air conditioners where the rush of air from ducted vents can be annoying, or where compressor noise of window units can be objectionable Simple controls - You decide what room conditions to set for your own personal comfort. And with state-of-the-art electronics, system controls constantly monitor and maintain selected settings Security advantage - Only a small 3 inch hole is needed for connecting indoor and outdoor units. No worries about intrusion through window installations or wall openings. Low ambient cooling - Most models feature built-in controls that allow the unit to cool even when outdoor temperatures fall to 0°F. An important feature typically required for computer, telecom and electronic gear rooms, or any other room requiring year-round cooling Includes convenient wireless remote control featuring 24-hour timer, sleep timer, auto, cool, dry and fan modes, and 3 fan speeds plus auto-fan Standard features include air louvers, auto-restart, washable/reusable air filters, auto-shut flaps, low ambient operation and fresh air capability

OK, I see that... Interesting indeed. I found that on this page on Friedrich's Web site. However, I'm unable to find anything about that on the specifications -- how much fresh air, how that fresh air is provisioned/delivered, and on what model(s) the fresh air feature is offered. Having some fresh air is better than having no fresh air -- but I really wonder if it will be enough to pass code, specifically making up for the lack of windows in the room(s)... :roll: Rod, have you had any experience with these fresh-air making mini splits? Kathy, you should find out what your local codes require in terms of mechanical ventilation to make up for the loss of windows. (In my case it is two full air exchanges per hour.) --Keith :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

Having some fresh air is better than having no fresh air -- but I really wonder if it will be enough to pass code, specifically making up for the lack of windows in the room(s)... :roll:

Kieth, Unit size is based on room area - fresh air is always balanced to typical code requirements.

Rod, have you had any experience with these fresh-air making mini splits?

Nope - but I have a few friends who love them - and a few contacts with home studios who rave about them as well.

Kathy, you should find out what your local codes require in terms of mechanical ventilation to make up for the loss of windows. (In my case it is two full air exchanges per hour.)

I agree that (of course I always do) checking with the Building Official to verify requirements makes sense - but I gotta tell you Kieth - you 2 complete air changes sounds screwy. Upon what was that based ? Typical design (for actual design versus packaged units like PTAC's , thru walls and mini splits) would be based on X cf of fresh air per occupant. I find myself curious what the formular was for your space. Rod

This is fascinating discussion... I am in a similar phase right now, but am looking at modifying my existing home system to allow supply and return ducts in each of the three rooms, each with there own zone / thermostat controlling mechanical thing that opens or closes the duct to that zone. The new system would also add fresh air into the system. I am waiting on quotes from two HVAC guys right now and will let you know what they come back with so that we can compare the two. I think we have about the same amount of space so it should be an interesting comparison. Talk with you soon, Andy

Just doing some preliminary research on the web tonight. Based on my room dimensions I will only need one of the smallest units - I can easily get by with 9,000 btu - and shouldn't go any higher than 12,000. I have about 350 sq feet to condition. I'm really liking these things alot. It's still a learning phase though and it's hard to find solid info about the fresh air on any particular unit. I'm thrilled to be going "ductless" though! They all seem to come with remote controls which is nice for a dual zone setup. By the way, I finished taking up the last of the barn floorboards. I was able to pull up most of BOTH layers of floor - the original floor from 1900 and then the second layer from whenever that was placed there. I'll have some updated photos tomorrow.

rod gervais wrote:

Kathy, you should find out what your local codes require in terms of mechanical ventilation to make up for the loss of windows. (In my case it is two full air exchanges per hour.)

I agree that (of course I always do) checking with the Building Official to verify requirements makes sense - but I gotta tell you Kieth - you 2 complete air changes sounds screwy. Upon what was that based ? Typical design (for actual design versus packaged units like PTAC's , thru walls and mini splits) would be based on X cf of fresh air per occupant. I find myself curious what the formular was for your space.

It's buried in my thread -- on page 20 to be exact:

On August 15, 2005, I wrote:

CBC [California Building Code] does in fact allow for mechanical ventilation as an alternative to a window in habitable space, provided it is certified as capable of doing a full air exchange every 30 minutes, or as much as 15 cubic feet per minute per person occupying "the building." I'm interpreting that as the number of people being in the room. Figuring 5 people in the room (oh how cramped that would be :shock: ), that's 75 CFM. I'm going to need some good fans and ducting! . . .

There's also this great little handout from the City of Boise (Idaho) that calls for three changes per hour (i.e., a full air exchange every 20 minutes), based on IRC Section R303. Remember that these numbers are based on the mechanical ventilation required for habitable rooms without windows. The ventilation system also doesn't have to be on all the time -- just available to be turned on when needed, much like an operable window can be opened on demand. --Keith :mrgreen:

You know, I just reread my post, and then I looked at that City of Boise handout (which I've looked at so many times), and it dawned on me that I might have done the calculations incorrectly! I think the exchange rate is .5 ACH, which is one full change every two hours, not every half hour. I'll verify this and I'll post back (with, possibly, corrections everywhere I posted the wrong info!). At any rate, it's best to find out what code requires in your area, because my codes don't match your codes.

Shar buddy, What it says is :

The glazed areas need not be openable where the opening is not required by Section R310 and an approved mechanical ventilation system is provided capable of producing 0.35 air change per hour in the room or a whole-house mechanical ventilation system is installed capable of supplying outdoor ventilation air of 15 cubic feet per minute (cfm) (7.08/L/s) per occupant computed on the basis of two occupants for the first bedroom and one occupant for each additional bedroom.

That is .35 air changes per hour - or one complete air exchange every 2 hours 51.6 minutes - let's call it one complete change every 3 hours. That is a little more reasonable. The "or" doesn't come into place here seeing as this is not a whole house system. Think for a moment about the amount of air you are heating (or cooling) and then just throwing out of the building (you have to exhaust eventually or you will stop pulling in fresh air) the energy costs would be enormous. Rod

Yes, I've thought of the efficiency too. Fortunately, I'm using a heat exchanger in my project for my ventilation, so that will save a bit. Also, there will be multiple fan speeds, so it won't always be pumping in/out the maximum amount of air. 8)

Kathy wrote:

By the way, I finished taking up the last of the barn floorboards. I was able to pull up most of BOTH layers of floor - the original floor from 1900 and then the second layer from whenever that was placed there. I'll have some updated photos tomorrow.

As promised, I have some new photos. The first batch are shots of all the floorboards I was able to pull up and collect into one pile. As I said before, it turns out that the barn had TWO layers of floor under it. One seems to be original from the year it was built (1880-1900) and then there was a second floor added some years later - probably because the first floor had started to sag and rot. However, there were some beautiful boards I pulled up from BOTH layers. Underneath both floors was simply dirt and ground. The wood framing that the floorboards sat on is actually sitting down into the ground. I look at this pile of wood and can't believe I did it all myself!

This photo shows the longest board I was able to pull up without breaking (was hard working with the new elevated floor joists in the way - couldn't pull up or slide out long pieces of floor). It is leaning up against the barn building itself. It must be close to 18 feet or so.

Here's two final pictures showing the inside barn floor and how it looks now that the floorboards are all pulled and dirt is showing. You'll see all 3 layers of flooring in these photos. There is still wood boards showing but those are staying there because they are either too rotted or too difficult to bring up. I've made them thumbnails. Click on them to open them in a new window which will allow you to see them in large full detail. Each photo has descriptive text as well. I'll be back later to post the most recent updates: I've laid down the vapor barrier (in a much easier way than how we originally discussed) and have actually built the cleats for the joists that will hold the insulation! I even had some unique help this weekend. I'll post the full update a little later. I'm off to continue working on the floor details.... Please click on each one to enlarge for detail. http://www.kathylabonte.com/barn/thumbs/th_oldfloor_closeup6.jpg http://www.kathylabonte.com/barn/thumbs/th_oldfloor_closeup7.jpg

Hi guys, Since the layout I previously provided was so bad in terms of judging the true size of the studio, I've worked at it a bit and have revamped it. Remember, I am quite handicapped when it comes to "visualization" and I am in awe of all of you who provide such incredible drawings and sketches in programs like Sketchup. I just have a real block when it comes to architectural type sensability. Drawing in walls, insulation, doors, and other materials seem so difficult for me. Anyways, I went to work in my OWN way, the only way I know how to communicate and visualize for you, and I did it in just a simple drawing of Appleworks. I liken myself to that of a kindergardener trying for the first time to express themselves thru fingerpaints and crayons but not really knowing how. The floorplan should look much more to scale now. I've added images to try and give you a picture in your mind of what I am trying to build. Structurally, there's a lot left out because I just don't know how to draw that stuff in. For instance, I want an open loft above part of the control room ceiling that will be visible from the live room due to the high vaulted roof. But I can't draw that. Other than the construction issues here and there that can't be visually expressed, and therefore can't be seen, everything else is spot on. If you see anything here that grabs your attention as a possible problem please let me know. Barn Layout

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Nice job Kathy, I love all the visuals included in the layout. I'm tossed between the RV and plants as my favorite. 8) Makes me wanna add in my garden just outside studio and my patio (lounge room) with hanging plants beside studio, in my next post of design layout. :twisted: Marc P.S. Can I export it out to JPG so everyone can have a easy view on your thread? I'll edit out this comment once you reply.