Kathy's Barn Conversion!

guitardad72 wrote:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Nice job Kathy, I love all the visuals included in the layout. I'm tossed between the RV and plants as my favorite. 8) Makes me wanna add in my garden just outside studio and my patio (lounge room) with hanging plants beside studio, in my next post of design layout. :twisted: Marc

Are you pokin' some fun at me? :-) I knew I was gonna get razzled for some of the pics....but you gotta admit, it gave a good visual this time, right? :lol: You're actually the reason why I redid it, Marc. You posed a question about the size of the studio and my speaker placement because my last drawing looked like it was real wide and narrow like a hallway. I realized everyone was getting the wrong impression. Anyways, the RV and the plants....absolutely pointless but it helped me to scale the layout and add the realism of how it truly is. It also helped me to lay the groundwork to pose one of my next questions concerning speaker placement, actually. My studio is "offcenter" and with this drawing you can really understand that my focal point and center workstation is actually off to the right side of the room which is how I am very comfortable and how it works best for me. But because of that setup I cannot house an old fashioned speaker placement that is traditionally centered to the left and right of the control room window. My room layout is moved to the right and the right side wall stops me cold from having a speaker beyond it. I've toyed with changing it to the standard way but my mixing board is NOT the central brain of my studio. It is more like the heart (everything pumps thru it) but the nervecenter of my studio are my 4 computer screens and Mackie Controllers. That's why the mixer can be off to the left and not centered in front of the window. Now, I DO have a solution for speaker placement in mind however, I was hoping to get some outside input on this. I thought once everyone saw my control room configuration they could throw out any suggestions they have for balanced speaker placement. So......that's why I went with such a detailed drawing complete with third grade level pictures. :oops:

P.S. Can I export it out to JPG so everyone can have a easy view on your thread? I'll edit out this comment once you reply.

Well, the reason why I hosted it on my own website was because I originally tried to attach the PDF here but it was much too large to accept. When I reduced the filesize the detail got lost and the text was unreadable. It really looked awful. I would have liked to have it viewable here but in order to keep the quality preserved I had to keep the file intact at its original size and type. That's why I'm hesitant to export it to any other format, dimension, or size. It's just as easy to click on the PDF link and it opens in a new window pretty quickly. That being said, if you think you can preserve it in a way that it can still be read without squinting and so forth, be my guest. But that's my concern. Thanks for the post. Now.......go ahead. Let's see your plants and garden!

Game On :D I'm working on the garden!! Will post on my own thread when done. And no I'm not poking fun. Pics attached, it took 2 to show text in studio area and entire pic with RV. :mrgreen: Marc

The pic of the rack, and the short one sitting on the bench, reminds me; be careful of any objects taller than your desk, they can mess up your stereo imaging if you get reflections off them. Isolation - have you or Scott gotten a firm grasp on the mass-air-mass concept of isolation, and have you looked at your entire project to see if it's violated anywhere? I'm concerned with your statements about the wall where no concrete footers were poured, and your outer shell in general... Steve

Hey Kathy, nice work. Hey I was wondering, have you checked your area for any reclaiming lumberyards? Believe it or not, there are saw mills that will pay you good $$ for those old boards. They mill them down and make beautiful hardwood floors for people out of them. You could have a gold mine there.

Kathy, it looks like you're going to have a lot of wood close to the ground... Is there going to be a crawlspace under the floor to accommodate regular termite inspections? If not, then aren't you concerned you're going to get Eastern Subterranean Termites? :?

Too tired to post replies - it's 2 am and I'm off to bed. Just wanted to check in and let everyone know that I received my DVD today of the Hometime "Construction Basics". After resuming work on the barn today of running cable thru PVC (after a 2 week setback to stop and pull up the old floorboards and lay down the vapor barrier), I stopped early tonight to come in and watch it. My head is swimming from a new vocabulary of terms! Just one prevalent thought keeps going thru my head: is it only me or does anyone else find that the drywalling process is medieval? I mean, with all of our technology advances and scientific breakthroughs, not to mention gadgets galore to make life easy and quick, why on earth are we still constructing with drywall? Days on end of mud taping and joint sealing.....tedious time consuming rituals....it seems awfully Flintstonish in this day and age to be doing things the long way. I dunno.....just kind of hit me as odd that there hasn't been a new way implemented. But whaddo I know.....after watching that video, apparently very little! I'll answer the questions tomorrow.

Kathy wrote:

Just one prevalent thought keeps going thru my head: is it only me or does anyone else find that the drywalling process is medieval? I mean, with all of our technology advances and scientific breakthroughs, not to mention gadgets galore to make life easy and quick, why on earth are we still constructing with drywall? Days on end of mud taping and joint sealing.....tedious time consuming rituals....it seems awfully Flintstonish in this day and age to be doing things the long way. I dunno.....just kind of hit me as odd that there hasn't been a new way implemented. But whaddo I know.....after watching that video, apparently very little! I'll answer the questions tomorrow.

Hey Kathy, have you ever done lath & plaster?!?!? :mrgreen:

Kathy wrote:

Just one prevalent thought keeps going thru my head: is it only me or does anyone else find that the drywalling process is medieval? I mean, with all of our technology advances and scientific breakthroughs, not to mention gadgets galore to make life easy and quick, why on earth are we still constructing with drywall? Days on end of mud taping and joint sealing.....tedious time consuming rituals....it seems awfully Flintstonish in this day and age to be doing things the long way.

Kathy, everyone you know must do the taping the old fashioned way...... here's how we do it in larger projects: http://www.all-wall.com/acatalog/Columb ... Taper2.php http://www.all-wall.com/acatalog/NorthS ... oller2.php http://www.all-wall.com/acatalog/Drywal ... tters2.php http://www.all-wall.com/acatalog/COL30-tn.jpg of course that would be a bit of overkill for small projects like houses and recording studios - but just to let you know we haven't really been standing still all these years.......... :wink: Rod

WiseMindsRecordingStudios wrote:

Hey Kathy, have you ever done lath & plaster?!?!? :mrgreen:

:lol: I was going to say the same thing!! :lol: Check out this Wikipedia entry on "drywall". Excerpt:

The name drywall derives from drywall's replacement of the lath and plaster wall building method, in which plaster was spread over small wooden formers while still wet. This method was time consuming and labor intensive (although skilled plasterers could do the job with great rapidity), whereas an entire house can be drywalled in one or two days by two experienced "drywallers", and drywall is easy enough to use that it can be installed by many amateur home carpenters.

hi kathy i see you and i are both members of the noisiest mac ever club. :lol:

sharward wrote:

WiseMindsRecordingStudios wrote:

Hey Kathy, have you ever done lath & plaster?!?!? :mrgreen:

:lol: I was going to say the same thing!! :lol: Check out this Wikipedia entry on "drywall". Excerpt:

The name drywall derives from drywall's replacement of the lath and plaster wall building method, in which plaster was spread over small wooden formers while still wet. This method was time consuming and labor intensive (although skilled plasterers could do the job with great rapidity), whereas an entire house can be drywalled in one or two days by two experienced "drywallers", and drywall is easy enough to use that it can be installed by many amateur home carpenters.

Shar, Interestingly - before drywall ever came into existence as we know it today - it was produced in 16" wide sheets as plaster lath. The sheets were 4' in length. It was available in varying thicknesses - with the thinnnest thickness 3/8". These sheets would be installed on the wall - and then a 2 coat plaster job would be applied over them. Plaster jobs today are typically done in only the most expensive homes - with a special blue board made for the purpose. The board edges are taped - and then a single "flood coat" of plaster is applied over the entire wall. It makes for a great job with no seams showing in direct light - as happens with any drywall application. Sincerely, Rod

Hi Kathy, I promised you an update on the quotes that came back from the HVAC guys I had come in. They both have been really slow (due in part to one guys partner breaking his wrist), but my one guy came back to me today with a quote of $2816. That would be for seperate registers and outlets in each room (Booth, Control Room, and Drum Room) with independant thermostats controlling Mechanical dampers. He would also be adding fresh air into my existing system via an intake on the back wall which would allow complete exchange of air once every 3 hours. All ducts would be lined and each and have at least 2 90 degree turns. The only concern I have about this approach is that the mechanical dampers might "Superheat" or "Supercool" the rooms which would prevent adequate dehumidification. However, being as I am shelling out $4400 for a basement drainage system with sump pump, I am led to beleive that by basement will be really dry. So hopefully that won't be an issue. Otherwise I am kind of stuck how I would be able to run each room with it's own independant thermostat. Maybe Rod can offer us the some wisdom here. Many Thanks, hope this helps and keep up the good work. Andy

Hi everyone! It’s been a while and I’ve gotten SO much done on the barn. I have pictures to share which show a real visual progress that’s unmistakeable. I also have a few posts to respond to and comment on. But before I continue on with the update I have a question that needs answering ASAP if possible. Scott came over today for the first time in several weeks and got caught up on my progress. Since I’m moving right along with the flooring on my own I suggested we start framing walls so that he could show me how and I could gain the knowledge I needed to continue working when he’s not here. One end of the barn floor is done enough for us to start putting up the interior walls. But we have a problem. This end of the barn has a sloped ceiling. In other words, if standing in front of the wall the right hand side of the roof meets the wall at about 6.5 feet. But then it starts to angle upwards at a slant where the left hand side of the wall is as tall as 11 feet. See the pictures below. We are having trouble framing this. We are doing it in two sections. We have cut our top plate and temporarily placed it up there on the slant for measurement purposes. It is at a 15 degree slant. We cut our bottom plate and it is sitting on the floor. We marked both the top and bottom plates at 16OC. We cut our first stud which is our shortest one. All of our studs will have a 15 degree slant cut on the top to meet the slanted top plate properly. We are getting ready to cut our additional studs and each one will be longer as we go along up the wall. In taking the measurements for each stud Scott noticed something didn’t seem right. We have been using a “plumb bob” (?). When he hangs the plumb bob from the top plate 16OC mark it should hit the bottom plate 16OC mark but it doesn’t. Why? Why is it off? We used this method on the normal wall we built (with a standard flat top plate and no angle) and the marks matched perfectly between plates and all studs were level. Is there a different method for framing a wall to a sloped ceiling? Do we need to do different math or adjust something? Our 16OC marks are not matching up between top and bottom plates when hanging the plumb bob. What do we do? P.S. Pay no attention to the old insulation on the exterior walls. That was put up along time ago before coming here and it will be corrected.

We have been using a “plumb bob” (?). When he hangs the plumb bob from the top plate 16OC mark it should hit the bottom plate 16OC mark but it doesn’t. Why? Why is it off?

Kathy my fellow builder...you have to compensate your measurements on the top plate for the 15 degree angle. If you think about it... What is the length of your bottom plate? What is the length of your top plate? It's longer yes? Yet your wall isnt wider at the top than it is at the bottom. The top is tilted at a 15degree angle, thus it's travel is longer. To properly 16OC for this wall you should measure and mark your bottom plate first. Then use the plumb bob to line up with those marks on the bottom plate. The place where you have to move your plumb bob string on the top plate to line up to those marks is where you mark your top plate. Try it and you will see that the distance between the your framing members will be 16OC all the way up. :D

WiseMindsRecordingStudios wrote:

To properly 16OC for this wall you should measure and mark your bottom plate first. Then use the plumb bob to line up with those marks on the bottom plate. The place where you have to move your plumb bob string on the top plate to line up to those marks is where you mark your top plate. Try it and you will see that the distance between the your framing members will be 16OC all the way up. :D

Hi Andy! Thank you so much for that quick reply. I am crossing my fingers that it really is that simple and will work. I feel kinda dumb now. I DID mark my bottom plate first. Then I also marked my top plate at 16OC. (and yes, they are different lengths - the bottom plate is 117 inches and the top plate was 126 inches). I KNEW the distance of the upward slant of the longer top plate was affecting things but I just couldn't figure it out. So, if I follow what you just told me to do then the top plate will autmatically line up with the bottom plate according to the plumb bob and after that I should find that the top plate will indeed measure out to be 16OC at those marks - right? And those 16OC marks I already made with a tape measure ahead of time - those all are wrong because of the different length and the 15 degree angle. That's why they are not matching up (even though they are 16 inches confirmed)? Makes perfect sense yet seems so hard to grasp. I can't wait to do this. I'll let you know how it comes out! Thanks again...

Kathy, OK - for a layout of 16" centers - your first stud edge would actually layout 14 1/2" from the backside of the first right hand stud I see in the picture. so 14 1/2" layout bottom - (Stud falls forward) and 15 25/32 on the top plate. After that - all of your layout is 16" on the bottom and 16 9/16" on the top plate. You should be fine that way. Rod

Kathy wrote:

WiseMindsRecordingStudios wrote:

To properly 16OC for this wall you should measure and mark your bottom plate first. Then use the plumb bob to line up with those marks on the bottom plate. The place where you have to move your plumb bob string on the top plate to line up to those marks is where you mark your top plate. Try it and you will see that the distance between the your framing members will be 16OC all the way up. :D

Hi Andy! Thank you so much for that quick reply. I am crossing my fingers that it really is that simple and will work. I feel kinda dumb now. I DID mark my bottom plate first. Then I also marked my top plate at 16OC. (and yes, they are different lengths - the bottom plate is 117 inches and the top plate was 126 inches). I KNEW the distance of the upward slant of the longer top plate was affecting things but I just couldn't figure it out. So, if I follow what you just told me to do then the top plate will autmatically line up with the bottom plate according to the plumb bob and after that I should find that the top plate will indeed measure out to be 16OC at those marks - right? And those 16OC marks I already made with a tape measure ahead of time - those all are wrong because of the different length and the 15 degree angle. That's why they are not matching up (even though they are 16 inches confirmed)? Makes perfect sense yet seems so hard to grasp. I can't wait to do this. I'll let you know how it comes out! Thanks again...

Yup, you got it Kathy. What Rod posted will work as well, but only if your top plate is exactly 15degrees of rise. Let me know how it works out.

I know you posted about the "drywall seems so old" thing a little while ago, but I just thought I'd comment anyway. Drywall is much easier than the alternative, plaster. If you think a little bit of mudding is difficult, plastering entire walls takes a skill I will never aquire. But hey, if you think up a new way to skin walls let us all know. :)

Quick note to Andy, Rod, and anyone else interested in the outcome of my framing problem: Thanks guys! It worked. It's not perfection but you must remember that the building isn't square or plumb at all. We're working with all kinds of angles gone array during this remodel. But thanks so much for the help. Scott came the next day and we did it. I've attached pictures below. We still have one small section of that slanted wall left to build. We did the largest section first. We'll finish that wall Wednesday. I also have a picture of the normal height wall we built just to the left of it. Still have to update you all on my floor! I'm STILL putting it down. I'm doing it all alone without Scott so it is time consuming. But I built all the cleats needed to hold the extra insulation and have been cutting and laying down the plywood panels one by one - each one needing precise care because of the cutouts for the PVC and wires below. I'm going full steam while I can. So, I'll be back with updates later this week. Thanks again, Kathy

SonicClang wrote:

I know you posted about the "drywall seems so old" thing a little while ago, but I just thought I'd comment anyway. Drywall is much easier than the alternative, plaster. If you think a little bit of mudding is difficult, plastering entire walls takes a skill I will never aquire. But hey, if you think up a new way to skin walls let us all know. :)

I guess my ignorance shows when I say how unimpressed I am with drywall as a solution to creating walls. But that just goes to show that I know very little about the art of construction (though my respect for it grows with each passing day). I really do dread getting to the drywall part of things and all those tedious steps of taping, mudding, drying & waiting, repeat, rinse, repeat.... :-) But it sounds like I should be grateful based on what you've all said so far. So, I shall thank my lucky stars and think of the alternative when the time arrives.

You're coming along well, Kathy; are your pix of framing showing the final, or do you intend to add firestops? I noticed that apparently Scott taught you the framing method that's predominant more on the eastern side of the USA, called "balloon" framing - more places West of the Mississippi use "platform" framing, where each 8 feet is it's own frame. You should be able to "google" those two terms and see some examples. Basically, though, you're gonna need some fire-blocking between each stud where they're longer than (IIRC) 10 feet; 8 feet is typical, just to be safe. This is just more framing lumber cut to length and nailed horizontally between studs, to prevent a "chimney" effect in the event of a fire. Slows down the spread a LOT. Holler if you need more info, or tell me to shut up if you just haven't gotten to it yet :wink: Steve

knightfly wrote:

You're coming along well, Kathy; are your pix of framing showing the final, or do you intend to add firestops? I noticed that apparently Scott taught you the framing method that's predominant more on the eastern side of the USA, called "balloon" framing - more places West of the Mississippi use "platform" framing, where each 8 feet is it's own frame. You should be able to "google" those two terms and see some examples. Basically, though, you're gonna need some fire-blocking between each stud where they're longer than (IIRC) 10 feet; 8 feet is typical, just to be safe. This is just more framing lumber cut to length and nailed horizontally between studs, to prevent a "chimney" effect in the event of a fire. Slows down the spread a LOT. Holler if you need more info, or tell me to shut up if you just haven't gotten to it yet :wink: Steve

Steve, Let's think through this one carefully - she's building a room within a room..... obviously without drywall on the faces inside of the cavity - thus the issue here isn't blocking in the stud-bay - but a mid-height fireblock assembly from the outside face of the outer wall to the inside face of the inner wall - all without coupling the 2 structures together............ plus a similar assembly at the top of the wall........... Let me put n my wizards cap for a bit here...... Kathy, What is the seperation between the walls? Rod

Rod, good point; plus I was mainly concerned with those really long studs on the high side not having any blocking, more for structural than fire - then I completely forgot to mention that part by the time I'd gotten into the post :cry: For fire stops, don't most areas now recognize mineral wool insulation as a fire block? And if so, maybe a combination of wood, drywall and mineral wool in between, kind of a "sandwich with sliding meat", so to speak? I don't think this has ever been done, but something like this? Steve

knightfly wrote:

Basically, though, you're gonna need some fire-blocking between each stud where they're longer than (IIRC) 10 feet; 8 feet is typical, just to be safe. This is just more framing lumber cut to length and nailed horizontally between studs, to prevent a "chimney" effect in the event of a fire. Slows down the spread a LOT. Holler if you need more info, or tell me to shut up if you just haven't gotten to it yet :wink: Steve

Hi Steve, Thanks for checking in on the progress. I hope to get some pictures up soon of my current progress on the floor so you can see how I handled the cleat situation you taught me about! As far as the fireblocking issue, ironically, Scott stopped by just a little while ago while he was on patrol in the area. He saw the lights on in the barn and wanted to see how I was getting along. I had just read your post so I asked him about it. He said that in this case it isn't necessary because if there was ever a fire the wood in the existing walls of the barn is so old and so dry that it would go up pretty quick and nothing would slow it down. I don't know anything about this but that made sense to me. The outer barn wall is literally only a couple of inches from the new inner wall we built so if there is a fire that old dry wood would almost act as an accelerant perhaps. Are you concerned about anything other than fire?

rod gervais wrote:

Let's think through this one carefully - she's building a room within a room..... obviously without drywall on the faces inside of the cavity - thus the issue here isn't blocking in the stud-bay - but a mid-height fireblock assembly from the outside face of the outer wall to the inside face of the inner wall - all without coupling the 2 structures together............ plus a similar assembly at the top of the wall........... Let me put n my wizards cap for a bit here...... Kathy, What is the seperation between the walls? Rod

They are as close to each other as possible without actually touching. Only a couple of inches gap between them. Also, let me ask my other question here: Obviously, that insulation you see in the pictures is wrong and something that was done long before I was a member here and before we started really building. To correct it, will I be okay if I just take it down and turn it over so that the paper backed side is pressed up against the old wood of the outer barn wall? The pink side would be facing towards the new framed wall. Then I would fill the new framing with insulation as well but this time with the paper backed side pressed up against the future drywall. Is this right? That would leave a small air gap in between the two walls, insulation in each wall, the paper backs of each insulation facing outward against a hard surface and the pink fluffy side facing in towards the air gap. Correct?