Kathy's Barn Conversion!

I know that I must put putty packs around the outlet and switch boxes in my walls. But people also talk about flush mounting the outlet boxes. Now, I DO know what flush mount means but in this case I don't understand how. How is this in relation to the drywall? Normally, you mount the box on the stud so that it sticks out just enough so that it will be even with the drywall once it is added. If you flushmount the box with the stud now it would be recessed when the drywall is added. How does that help? What can't I "see"? I'm sure I'll feel stupid once this is explained but can someone do the honors of pointing out the obvious to me?

Kathy wrote:

I know that I must put putty packs around the outlet and switch boxes in my walls. But people also talk about flush mounting the outlet boxes. Now, I DO know what flush mount means but in this case I don't understand how. How is this in relation to the drywall? Normally, you mount the box on the stud so that it sticks out just enough so that it will be even with the drywall once it is added. If you flushmount the box with the stud now it would be recessed when the drywall is added. How does that help? What can't I "see"? I'm sure I'll feel stupid once this is explained but can someone do the honors of pointing out the obvious to me?

Kathy, Flush mount is another term for surface mount - using wire mold to minimize penetrations through the wall surface. Hence: mounted flush on the surface of the wall. Rod

rod gervais wrote:

Kathy, Flush mount is another term for surface mount - using wire mold to minimize penetrations through the wall surface. Hence: mounted flush on the surface of the wall. Rod

So then, if the electrical outlet boxes are mounted flush on the surface of the wall, these blue plastic boxes that I am nailing to the studs should not be? They will be directly attached to the drywall after it is up? Right now, just leave the Romex hanging without the boxes? The only penetration thru the drywall will be an opening just large enough for the Romex to pull thru? The outlets and switches will actually protrude from the finished wall then if they are mounted right on the drywall, right?

Kathy, it seems to me that you have precisely the right attitude in this situation. When you choose to do something DIY without experience, it probably means that your final results will have a few blemishes. However, the process of doing it, of learning and gaining the experience, gives you something that no one can take away from you. Your studio will be yours, it will sound great, and that's what it's about! Keep the big picture in mind, and don't despair over an imperfection in the details. Keep doing the best you can....

Kathy wrote:

rod gervais wrote:

Kathy, Flush mount is another term for surface mount - using wire mold to minimize penetrations through the wall surface. Hence: mounted flush on the surface of the wall. Rod

So then, if the electrical outlet boxes are mounted flush on the surface of the wall, these blue plastic boxes that I am nailing to the studs should not be? They will be directly attached to the drywall after it is up? Right now, just leave the Romex hanging without the boxes?

WRONG - you can't use those boxes for surface mount applications. You have to use components approved for that use - which means wire mold - a complete system designed and UL tested for that application.

The only penetration thru the drywall will be an opening just large enough for the Romex to pull thru? The outlets and switches will actually protrude from the finished wall then if they are mounted right on the drywall, right?

Sure nuff will........ Rod

rod gervais wrote:

You have to use components approved for that use - which means wire mold - a complete system designed and UL tested for that application.

Ok, that's a term I hadn't heard before. I assume this is the stuff I just looked at over at wiremold.com? A whole system would have to be designed and mapped out for my room. There are some wonderful things at that site. Considering my isolation needs not being quite as critical as others would you say I really need to do my whole room this way or would I be ok sticking with the traditional system?

You can stick with the "traditional" system and as far as where the boxes mount to the studs, just calculate how thick your drywall is going to be and make sure that that much of the box is sticking out from the stud. In other words, if you use 1 layer of 1/2" drywall, the front of the box would need to be sticking out 1/2" (or possibly a scoosh less for looks) from the stud it's mounted to. If you use 2 layers of 5/8", it will have to be sticking out 1 1/4" less the aforementioned scoosh from the front of the stud. len

len-morgan wrote:

You can stick with the "traditional" system and as far as where the boxes mount to the studs, just calculate how thick your drywall is going to be and make sure that that much of the box is sticking out from the stud. In other words, if you use 1 layer of 1/2" drywall, the front of the box would need to be sticking out 1/2" (or possibly a scoosh less for looks) from the stud it's mounted to. If you use 2 layers of 5/8", it will have to be sticking out 1 1/4" less the aforementioned scoosh from the front of the stud. len

Yeah, that's what I thought. For my purposes, I am already working with an old drafty barn and a ceiling/roof that I am unsure if I will be able to put more than one layer of drywall on. I will have two to three layers on the walls and I do have the double layered plywood floor but the truth is, my roof will end up being the weakest point and I know that affects everything. I am going to have to try and calculate how much weight it can take and decide if I want to attempt two layers of gypsum up there. At any rate, with the age of the barn and the compromises in my construction, worrying about a wiremold system and leakage thru the outlets is almost ridiculous for me. If this were NEW construction and a commercial facility then I would be thinking otherwise. But putting a wiremold system into place is like trying to save the Titanic by scooping out water one bucket at a time. It's not going to make a noticeable difference.

Kathy wrote:

If this were NEW construction and a commercial facility then I would be thinking otherwise. But putting a wiremold system into place is like trying to save the Titanic by scooping out water one bucket at a time. It's not going to make a noticeable difference.

Kathy, for what it's worth - I would never consider wiremold in any installation. Standard electrical installation can be used if easonable care is taken during construction without compromising the wall assembly. Sincerely, Rod

rod gervais wrote:

Kathy, for what it's worth - I would never consider wiremold in any installation. Standard electrical installation can be used if easonable care is taken during construction without compromising the wall assembly. Sincerely, Rod

That's WORTH a mint. Thanks for speaking up. From your prior post I got the impression that wiremold was what you were suggesting. I'm glad to hear you say otherwise. Like you, I think standard electrical installation is more than fine too. I'll be careful and use the putty packs. I DID like some of the various other products that Wiremold.com had to offer for management and organization. I just didn't find it necessary for soundproofing in MY situation and building. Thanks for posting that thought. Makes me feel even better about my decision.

Rod, What WOULD you consider to be reasonable installation considerations? I dont want to obsess. I have been unable to decide what would be the most cost effective way to present my electrical boxes. I will (much like Kathy) have double wall , (double sheetrock one side) type build , and have considered surface mounting, but would rather mount the boxes and wires in the wall if I wont take a tremendous hit in isolation. As an added benifit, I won't have to dance around with the building inspector who cant seem to see past standard construction needs. Tom

I used wiremold throughout my studio. In my opinion every little thing adds up.

tmix wrote:

Rod, What WOULD you consider to be reasonable installation considerations? I dont want to obsess. I have been unable to decide what would be the most cost effective way to present my electrical boxes. I will (much like Kathy) have double wall , (double sheetrock one side) type build , and have considered surface mounting, but would rather mount the boxes and wires in the wall if I wont take a tremendous hit in isolation. As an added benifit, I won't have to dance around with the building inspector who cant seem to see past standard construction needs. Tom

Tom, wiremold is a standard in the industry - so it won't throw your building inspector a curve. I would consider a reasonable installation to be the box mounted properly to the stud - the use of putty pads (per manufacturer's installation) then tight fitting drywall - which means a maximum 1/8" opening around the box - and then the edge between the drywall and the box caulked for seal. If that is the installation then I have no qualms about the isolation. Rod

Thanks Rod. I dont want to captivate Kathy's thread so I'll shut up. Tom

Kathy, I will get down in the basement with the Camera for some pictures later on my beefing up phase. But in essence here was the 13 step process I followed: 1. Mudded all joints, cracks and knotholes in the sub floor. 2. Measured joist spacing (at both ends), and cut drywall leaving a ¼ inch gap around the perimeter. 3. Attached drywall to sub floor temporarily with short drywall screws (check length against depth of drywall + sub floor). I used one every 12 – 14 inches, and only around the perimeter – none in the middle. 4. Mudded the joints and screw heads (screw heads may be overkill). 5. Installed Backer rod into the gap around the perimeter using Keiths hand dandy tool. It looks kinda like a pizza cutter, and is found in the hardware store where the window and insect screen bits are. 6. Applied caulk around the perimeter. 7. Measured and cut the second layer of drywall. 8. Applied Green Glue to the next layer of drywall 9. Attached next layer of drywall using slightly longer drywall screws. (Check length against depth of 2 layers of drywall + sub floor). 10. Mudded the joints and screw heads (screw heads may be overkill). 11. Installed Backer rod into the gap around the perimeter using Keiths hand dandy tool. 12. Applied caulk around the perimeter. 13. Finally, I attached 1x3x8’s to the joists up against the bottom of the drywall to hold it permanently in place. This is what I think Rod is calling “ledger” in his book. And that was it in a nutshell. As you know from my thread there have been some hindsight issues along the way, but I have tried to reflect that learning experience into the above process. It’s great that were both all over each other’s thread. It seems as though we each tackling the same questions but at different times which works out great – only half as much asking! :D Hope this helps and good luck. Andy

Kathy, To clarify Andy's response in YOUR situation - YOUR floor is fine. You can use the same technique though on your outer walls to beef them up. Just do it vertically instead of horizontally. Green Glue might not be necessary in your case. The most important part of his post is completely sealing (with backer rod and calk) at each step of the process. You probably wouldn't need the cleats to hold the drywall in (assuming you've got enough "meat" in the outer skin of your barn for the screws to bite into). What you want to end up with is a really solid outer wall that you've "laminated" together. len

What Rod is calling "ledgers" is what we have often called "cleats." I like the word "ledgers" more, and maybe it's more accurate. Or maybe cleats are for walls and ledgers are for ceilings... :roll: Anyway, here is the starting point in my marathon thread where I begin my beef-up effort. Note that I glued and "cleated" OSB strips into the stud bays first. My technique was a little different than many of those shown here. --Keith :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

Note that I glued and "cleated" OSB strips into the stud bays first. My technique was a little different than many of those shown here.

And much wiser if you ask me becuase it gives you much more wood to screw the drywall into. len

It is the eve of May 1st and I have 2 months worth of updated photos to post. For the last few weeks, and for reasons of necessity, you've all noticed I have gone off on a side road and begun some of the interior wall framing even though parts of the floor had not been finished yet. We had successfully worked thru half of the framing when I was able to finally finish up the floor construction. It is now done and here are the photos to prove it! Phase 1: The Floor... IS COMPLETE! Procedure used: • Pulled up two original layers of barn floorboards circa 1900 • Laid down plastic vapor barrier over remaining dirt bays • Built new subfloor joists with 2x6 planks • Laid out hundreds of feet of PVC tubing in sizes 2” to 4” • Ran snakes and cables thru tubing • Ripped cleats for joists to hold the insulation above the dirt floor • Installed 2 layers of R19 insulation in joist bays creating a slight overfill and damping crush • Laid out the first layer of 3/4 OSB plywood flooring with custom cuts around the tubing • Rolled out one layer of 30lb roofing felt paper • Finished off with second layer of 1/2 OSB plywood Below is the first batch of pictures documenting each step mentioned above. The posts to follow will end with photos of the finished floor. Thanks so much for your help this far!

I’m not sure how I survived the madness but.... what seemed like miles of PVC piping and with cables as far as the eye could see, I finally finished and secured the whole mess beneath the floor. See for yourself. Phase 1a: Wiring Beneath The Floor... IS COMPLETE! Methods used: •Lots of mapping, remapping, and then starting all over (x3) •Persistence, finger crossing, a touch of ignorant bliss, and a naive belief that it will all work spendidly just as planned

Last but not least - the final layer! It may not be perfect but I can say I did it ALL by myself. I had no help on any part of the floor after the joists were built - and I did more than half of those alone as well. Considering I have no experience or knowledge in this area, I'll take it and take it proudly.

About the only thing cooler than a woman who rocks is a woman who rocks and builds studios out of barns!!! 8) 8) 8) I shower you with well-deserved kudos for what looks to be fine workmanship!! 8) Now, admit it -- sometimes you just go out there and look at it -- don't you?? :lol: --Keith :mrgreen: