okay...you're gonna love this post. Its contents might be considered for the "Stupidest Mistake" award. But I'm getting ahead of myself...
knightfly wrote:
(sorta) in order -
If the barn wood floor is in that good a shape, I'd leave it too; some of these old constructs are amazing. I've read that Locust wood, for example, has been used for fence posts that were still solid after anything else would have been just a dim memory...
Yes, now you're understanding what I was trying to convey. I know nothing about this but it has been told to me by Scott (my friend) and others that those boards are great and that they would even be worth some money. The floor is solid enough to want to keep those slats underneath the new floor for sure. And the fact that there is even a second layer of wood under much of it makes it even more sturdy. We just couldn't use it as a "real" floor because it sags in places and is just dirt underneath some spots and is loose in areas. And warped and uneven as hell. But I like knowing that it's under there.
Insulation - you're using 2x6 joists, right? If so, I'd assumed you had not very thick insulation (re: the pix) - so what I meant was, you would need more than one layer of insulation to over-fill your joist cavities, so that the insulation would push up against the bottom of the floor and damp any resonances. If you use a second layer of insulation, that would give you TWO places where the kraft paper would end up and that's NOT GOOD, either acoustically or "moisturally" :? as it would trap moisture, most likely just where it DOESN'T need to be.
OHHH! I get it! See, I had no clue we were talking about 2 layers of insulation therefore using 2 paper backings. This is crucial that we talked about it. We had just laid down ONE strip of insulation in the joist cavity and that was it. There is a HUGE hole, and I mean huge, between the barn floor and the bottom of the insulation. Our new floor is almost a foot above the old one. Remember I said that the barn floor was uneven? Well, the distance between the barn floor and the top of the new floor joists is 12" in some spots and only 9" in others. But there's a lot of varying space under there. Scott said that one strip of insulation was fine. Personally, I thought that the insulation was supposed to touch both the barn floor and the OSB new floor. And if I understand you correctly, then this is true? The entire space from old floor to new floor should be filled/stuffed with insulation and there should be NO air space? That makes sense to me in terms of plain old insulation and keeping out the heat and cold, nevermind about sound. It seems as though only one strip of insulation couldn't do the job when it's so far above the old floor. So, if this is true this is GOOD news. It means I did NOT buy enough insulation to do the floor joists at all. I can sorta correct my mistake by purchasing the yellow fluffy stuff now? Can that be the bottom layer that lays on the barn floor and then the pink stuff with paper backing lay on top of that? That would be ideal if I could still use my pink stuff and only add an order of non-backed yellow stuff to add to it to fill the cavity completely.
So, if I'm right and your insulation blankets are NOT thick enough to stick up ABOVE the floor joists before putting the plywood/OSB down, then you need MORE fill in the floor in order to make the insulation stay snugly in contact with the OSB, thereby damping the floor against resonating. With the "fluffy stuff" type of insulation, between 15-20% "crush" is what you want.
See above....can I do what I asked?
No, you do NOT want the paper backing against the ground; it belongs against the underside of your first layer of OSB that's on top of the joists. It's not moronic, just incorrect.
Okay. Just checking. Thanks for not making me feel stupid.
:wink:
Speaking of OSB, most agencies at this time consider it a direct replacement for plywood; being a cantankerous old fart, I still have my doubts. However, for this application the main requirement is density and a fair amount of strength, and OSB meets those criteria just fine.
Cool. I'm glad to know that. It definitely saved some money. Especially when you talk about doubling it.
You'll want to put the first layer down using construction adhesive between joists and OSB PLUS nails (better yet, screws properly sunk) - this will minimise any rattles/vibrations/squeaks. Same with the second layer, only just glue the T&G joints themselves, and stripes of adhesive over each joist location - this allows each layer to maintain its own coincidence frequency, which helps with damping a bit.
Geez, we didn't do any of that properly! I guess I should tell you we got a little excited and actually nailed down one of the boards already BEFORE we even started laying out the tubing! It was 2 weeks ago. We were so excited to be done with the floor joist framing and I had a delivery of lumbar out in the driveway. In New England this time of year that's not good. So, we brought in a few pieces of the OSB to throw down loose so we would have an area to walk on and put the saw and tools as we worked. Well, there is one spot in the back of the control room where we didn't THINK there would be any tubing or cabling or anything. It's basically an area that the couch is going to go (see my layout chart if necessary
Barn Layout ).
So that's the area we are designating as our work area. We grabbed a roll of insulation and threw a few rows down, stapling the paper to the tops of the joists (and this is where I now cringe knowing that there is not enough insulation under there!). We threw down a board, cut it to rest on the joist properly and around a piece of bumped out wall in the back. It was the end of our Wednesday and Scott had just opened a few Coronas and was feeling good! As we were admiring our work he said, "Screw it! I'm nailing it down!" I said, "Are you sure"? and he replied, "Yeah, there's nothing going here". And so he did.
Well, all was good until a couple of days later when I'm starting the maddening process of laying out tubes and realize that I forgot to tell him that indeed there WAS tubes needing to go there. Part of my Lshaped/circular desk will run down that wall and that is where I have a desktop rack that holds all of my midi instruments and guitar processors. Those have to be wired to various other parts of the studio. I needed three tubes there. So, when he came back the following Wednesday we cut out 3 holes and managed to get the tubes slid underneath (because there IS no insulation on the barn floor and we could slide the tube right under the insulation hanging from the joist cavity).
Nailing down that one board has caused problems. I then discovered that the 2" tubing I used there could not handle 2 snakes being run thru with TRS connectors on the ends. They got caught in the 90 degree elbow. It was a mess and the start of my nightmare.
To make matters worse, the few tubes he started to lay with me were ones he GLUED together once we had them down and the string run thru them. He glued the elbows and then the extension piece that comes up thru the floor. There was no way to change things. So, I had to saw the extension off and slide the tube back out from under the floor. Then I manually put the snakes in thru the straight part of the tube and maneuvered them thru the elbow. This time I just taped it secure and then ran the tube fully filled with snakes back under that OSB board and used a new extension piece to come up thru the floor.
What did this all teach me?
•We secured the floor prematurely
•We shouldn't glue or nail anything permanent until the last second
•We need to run as many actual snakes and cables now BEFORE buttoning up the floor because the less wires I have to use the string for the better.
Back to the methods you have told me about how to lay down the floor.
He used #8 nails. Is this not sufficient? Do we have to use screws? I prefer screws but is it a matter of taste or is there a reason why we should use one over the other? Of course, if we had used screws, pulling it up would not be such a problem! Well, actually, not if an adhesive was used.
I didn't know about this. What kind of construction adhesive to use (brand, style) and is it only one strip where the board is going to lay over the joist? Second layer, the adhesive on the T&G and over each joist? Do I use the adhesive on the T&G of the first layer too? Any nails or screws on the second layer?
I love your commitment to communication and attention to detail. I am the same way. Could you just lay it out in steps for me again as if I were a monkey that needed to know EVERY small thing on how to lay and secure the floor? Specifically, the differences between layer one and layer two. That would help me tremendously to not be confused.
The ONLY time you'd want to glue ALL the face surface of a second layer, is if you're using a Constrained Layer Damping material such as Green Glue.
Yes, that's one area I have read about here and am not confused about. I know how Green Glue is applied and the cost. I did my homework there.
If the approximately $14 per sheet cost of Green Glue is daunting, you can get somewhat the same effect (not as much tho) by laying down two layers of 30# roofing felt (heavy tar paper) between the two OSB layers. You would NOT overlap the paper, just BUTT each row; then, do the second layer of paper at right angles to the first, butt each row (they're about 36" wide), and fasten with T50 staples (or if your bud has a coil roofing nailer that would work)
That's a great suggestion, thank you! I'll have to look into the pricing of that. I know it won't be as goodas Green Glue but I'm actually not a stickler in this area so the little extra protection that it provides will be enough for me. Would this also work later on the walls between two layers of drywall?
"Poly" is polyethylene sheeting, sometimes called Visquene - and if you didn't have paper backed insulation, this could be stapled over your joists before the OSB goes on; but paper is better, because it allows a bit of breathing which the poly will NOT.
Cool. If my idea of mixing two insulations is approved then I'm glad I have the paper backing that I do.
No apologies necessary; the only time I get irritated with people is when they DON'T want to learn :? Otherwise, I'll explain in as many different ways as I know how til it's clear. If any of my answers seem curt, blunt, rude, etc, it is NEVER intended; I'm only trying to avoid mis-communication, which occasionally happens DESPITE my attempts.
One example: When I say "solid core door" I mean a full thickness, SLAB of heavy wood that's the same thickness everywhere - but I failed to make that plain at one point, and at least one member bought "solid core" doors that were really "panel" doors. They were actually solid, but thinner where the panels were (less mass is NEVER good when you're trying for isolation) - so now I try to make things so painfully clear that this doesn't happen again.
The good news: we were able to help the member fill those doors and it worked out...
Thank you again for having that patience to continue explaining until things are crystal clear. I love that and I am the same way. I appreciate your efforts.
You guys are my virtual contractors.
Cool; got lotsa tools, now we got virtue... :mrgreen: ... Steve
Hey, this is your "butt-kickin" day - get off the 'puter and go kick some fer me... :wink:
Well, this is the second Wednesday in a row I have told him not to come because I am not ready for him. I have to finish the tubing and cabling before we move on to the next stage that I don't know how to do alone which is laying the floor. He has shown me what I need to know in terms of the tubing and insulation (and now I have straightened that out even more by coming here before it's too late). The idea is that he gets me started and I finish up until we are ready for the next step that I can't do without him. Just like he couldn't do the cabling without me. It's not his studio and he doesn't know what I need nor does he understand how that all works. It would be a waste of his valuable time to be here while I ponder what needs to go where and change things in my mind over and over. I told him to stay home until I had this mess sorted out which I now do. So, I have to get that tubing laid down now, cables run, and then resume filling the cavities with insulation. Then I will be ready for him to come back and we can lay the floor. He doesn't know yet that it's going to be doubled. I'll have to order 12 more pieces.
Another question about cutting the floor OSB: Is it common to have to cut these 4x8 sheets so that they fall correctly on the joists at 16" center? And also, the tubing is coming up thru the floor. We will have to cut out circular holes in the OSB to slide over the tube ends. Any thoughts or suggestions there? Making those precise cuts have us both worried.
