By the way, learned how to use a nail gun for the first time today. Wow! It was like firing a shotgun. What a kickback on it. Very cool. I had fun. It sure did make life easier.
Here's a picture of it.
Kathy's Barn Conversion!
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 5556.
Nail guns'r fun alright; just looked at your door framing, and you'll wanna add a couple blocks on the right side same as the ones on the left - especially if your hinges will go on that side. What that does is tie ALL your studs on that side into one much harder to bend unit, so your door stays the way you first installed it instead of sagging - in the case of outside doors, it also acts as a security device by making it harder to spread the door frame with a pry bar and "pop the lock" ... Steve
Yes, Here it is: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0907#40907 I'd be mighty proud for you to take a look. I have miles to go before I play. TomThanks, Tom. Do you have a project thread here? What is it called? I'm trying to find time to read everyone's when possible.
I'm looking for some opinions on my new layout idea. I'm seriously thinking about NOT dividing my barn into two rooms now. Instead of a live room and tracking room, just keep it all one large area. Same layout, same drum riser, same vocal booth, same wall patchbays in each "room"........just eliminate the full length wall between that would close them off from each other. Instead, I would build a short half wall - perhaps 4 feet high with a wide ledge/shelf on the top - for some visual separation only, not sound isolation.
This isn't about right or wrong or facts or knowledge....I don't need just the experienced to chime in. All the lurkers out there with an opinion or preference - I would love to hear your thoughts. Really, this is a matter of personal taste I would think.
Why do I want to do it? Well, dividing the room with a full length wall really closes things up and makes everything smaller. Keeping it open with just a half wall seems more spacious.
In terms of the future - if I ever wanted to or had to sell the house it would be a lot easier to do so with this one large extra room (dimensions of 14 ft wide by 25 ft long) and labeling it a media room or family room or game room. But by having two smaller rooms with a glass window between it - what could other families use it for?
Personally, I do most of my producing, writing, arranging, and tracking alone. I use an electronic kit so there's no issue there. I use amp simulators and direct gear for guitar work so there's no Marshall amps to mic. I plan on having a vocal/iso booth in the far corner so that would handle any of my needs for isolation. I really don't need the hassle of going thru an extra door (or two) to get to the live room.
On the other hand, I want to build for the future and for growth. I plan on working with other bands and artists. What if I brought in a 3 piece horn section? What if there was a guitar player who wanted to mic his Marshall stack and not use direct gear? Those are really the only two situations I can think of that would appreciate the live room separation.
The other thing I am struggling with, I'm a little ashamed to say, is pure image and status quo. It's not a REAL recording studio if there isn't a live room and a control room some will say. If it's just one combo room it doesn't count. It's stupid to think like that but after years of bedroom recording and acquiring thousands of dollars in gear AND finally buying a home that doesn't just have a spare room but a whole attached building - a barn - I just want to build the true studio layout complete with all the fixins' in the space I'm lucky enough to have.
So what does everyone think? If I increase the size of my vocal booth to fit more situations can I get by without closing off my control room? It would save me money - on doors, on window glass, on lumber. It would save time as well just to build a waist high visual separating wall. Keeping it open concept would make it seem more spacious.
If you've only lurked out there because you don't have the expertise to answer the questions so far then please feel free to jump in on this one. I'm really looking for opinions to sway me one way or the other.
Part of me doesn't want to give up the dream of having that picture perfect studio with a glass window looking from my control room into my tracking room. The other part of me would like to keep things simpler and more spacious - and easier to build since I'm doing most of it alone.
Anyone care to chime in?
For your described modus operandi, there's nothing wrong with a single room approach - in fact, for the most part it's more efficient and less claustrophobic.
Things you give up (besides the ones you already mentioned) are having a more live room to record in - a CR, in order to make sure you're not making your mixes too "dry", has to have pretty short decay times (these rooms are too small to actually have this called "reverb", but it has a similar effect on mix choices. In a 2-room setup, normally the live room has some actually usable acoustics (although seldom close to perfect) which become part of your recorded tracks. The CR is usually made more dead, so you can hear how much reverb there is in the tracks and add electronic 'verb accordingly. If the CR is too "wet", you'll not know your mix is too dry until you play it elsewhere.
Live drums - I know you said you'll use electronic, but just in case - one definite improvement in efficiency when setting up a drum sound, is that you can listen to what the drums will sound like "on tape", without having to do a bunch of test recordings and listen to them WITHOUT the actual drums bleeding thru your walls and into your ears. Same with any OTHER acoustic recorded tracks, really; what you hear in the same room is NOT what is going to the recorder, so there can be a LOT of "cut and try" going on. A well-isolated separate room is the fix for all this time wasted.
Another thing to consider - if you look at the second picture on your very first post in this thread, the roof line of the studio isn't set up so you could easily add on to the side where the roof is lowest, but you MIGHT be able to add on where the RV is parked in the pic; with a ceiling shape like that, your mix position should be facing away from the wall where the door is showing, so if you were to add a double-glazed CR window on the wall next to the RV, and just continue your roofline out in the direction of the RV, you could LATER add a live room and keep your larger, 1-room feel and working style going.
Just a thought. That would leave you some options and still let you save $$ and start out working like you're used to... STeve
We've completely remodeled our entire house, gutted each room and completely rebuilt it. When we decide what we want to do with each room, we focus on what fits our lifestyle and our needs, not on what someone else who owns the house after we're gone will want.
Some folks don't want to do anything out of the ordinary for fear it will "affect the resale value". We decided we wanted a unique home, one whose differences would contribute to its character and charm.
Ultimately it's a choice you have to make. :)
Kathy, My room is 16' x 22' - so roughly the same area as your room - and it's a combo. One open room - my desk is tight against one exterior wall - and I live with it.......... I toyed with the idea of turning it into 2 rooms - but (for me) it would have been just too tight that way. If you go this route - one important thing to consider is that you need to build it from the point of view of the control room - in order words - you need to make it symmetrical......... that is very important. With my set-up - if recording - my back would be to the room if I was seated at the console - but I live with that - get everything set-up - set levels - and then basically just switch on the recorder.... And, when practicing - it's nice to be able to spread out a bit. So (FWIW) I would suggest one room - and enjoy the open space. Sincerely, RodWhy do I want to do it? Well, dividing the room with a full length wall really closes things up and makes everything smaller. Keeping it open with just a half wall seems more spacious. In terms of the future - if I ever wanted to or had to sell the house it would be a lot easier to do so with this one large extra room (dimensions of 14 ft wide by 25 ft long) and labeling it a media room or family room or game room. But by having two smaller rooms with a glass window between it - what could other families use it for?
I am with Rod!
I have set up my room to be symmetrical, which generally is not as good for tracking unless you deal with the potential for numerous reflections that usually occur at the mics. I set up my listening position symmetrically with my back to the room and (in my old studio)my speakers firing down the length of the room. Then at the other end I heavily trap that wall and set up my instrument positions where they are not centered on any wall or corner. I actually have a pretty nice sized iso booth that is big enough for critical vocals / acoustic guitar and the like. Plus I can actually fit a small drum kit in there in a pinch. Often my clients like the fact I can put a scratch vocalist in the vocal booth while going direct on bass and guitars and micing the drums in the main room. That way they can all play together. If they want to retrack the guitars using amps they can later retrack them. Generally when they do they keep the original direct tracks (recorded on my amp simulators) as well as the amped tracks.
I have occassionally run into the rare time I wish I had more isolated areas, but have always worked around it. It is best for us (Ibeleive) to spend the money on what will haelp us 95 % of he time rather than blowing precious funds on things you wont use the majority of the time. If you were going to be strictly a commercial facility, I might suggest otherwise... perhaps not.
I think I would consider the largest mixing / tracking room I could, plus a good sized iso booth, and maybe... an amp closet! or a storage closet you could use as an amp closet in a pinch.
Tom
Hi guys!
It's been a bit since I posted. This is just an update for now with details and photos to follow later. I do have a question at the end of this post, too.
I have many pictures coming soon to bring you up to date. I have finally FINISHED PHASE ONE: THE FLOOR. I did it almost singlehandedly and tried to do all that I was told. I sandwiched 30lb roofing felt paper between two layers of OSB while "crushing" double layers of R19 insulation. It feels solid. I'm rather proud. :wink: I built the joists, built the cleats, I even poured some of the cement footers way back at the beginning. And let's not forget pulling up two layers of 100 year old original barn floorboards! AND laying miles of PVC pipe and cabling. Whew. I can now cross "Building a floor" off of my life's To Do List. Been there, done that.
Of course, in the middle of finishing the floor we started Phase Two: The Walls. You've seen some of that already and have answered some questions. We have two walls done. We are working on the rest now.
Part of Phase Two is roughing in the electrical boxes and lighting layout. Another new journey for me. I read about Star grounding. I read about so much. I chose what is easiest and best for me in my circumstance. I am confused on this subject as usual but am working thru it with as many resources as possible. I will post more about my electrical layout later.
Just wanted to also thank those who responded to my request for opinions on whether or not to divide my room into two. I agree with everything everyone wrote and am excited to now have one large room. It will save a lot of headache as well.
As a result of keeping the room intact I will increase the size of the iso/vocal booth slightly. So here's a question I have about this. This will seem a little unconventional to you but unless there is a reason it shouldn't be done I'd like to do it.
The part of the building that will hold the vocal booth is where the ceiling is slanted at it's highest. About a 12 foot ceiling on that side of the room. I would like to have the top of the vocal booth be a place where someone can climb up and hang out - perhaps a beanbag chair up there or a futon mattress. It would overlook the whole room. I would decorate the top with a fancy white railing all the way around - part for safety, part for looks. A medium to tall person could not stand up on there but a short person (like myself) probably could. But it's more about lounging and relaxing up there with a view.
So, how do I go about making the ceiling/roof of the vocal booth an actual floor to hold the weight of a person? Apply the similar logic that I did building the main floor? I think I know how to do it when framing but I just want to check that there isn't something special or additional I need to know about it.
Ok, I am back to work. I have been putting in long days every day in the barn which is why I haven't been around to post. But I'm excited to announce that I am writing to you right now from my temporary station inside of the barn where my future desk will be! I have an old cart on wheels that is holding my iBook, a small tv, the satellite receiver, and my iPod and I can sit here and do all things communicative while building. I have constant hi speed wireless access out here and it's great to get a feel for what it's really going to be like when it's really done! Plus, I get to stay in touch with the world while out here with my hardhat on.
I'll catch you a bit later!
Sorry if this has been covered already -- I don't have time to turn through all the pages in your post. (Ha! Look who's typing!)
Your insulation has kraft paper -- aren't you concerned about the third leaf effect? Aren't you worried about dividing your air gap into two parts, the sum of which are not equal to not having the kraft paper at all? :roll:
I don't know which picture you are looking at. My insulation on the walls in some of those pictures is old and incorrect. I noted that in my posts. If you are looking at photos of the newly framed interior walls and are seeing the kraft insulation behind it, then you are seeing what I've already fixed. That insulation was put up months ago before starting the floor or anything. After we framed the new walls I pulled that stuff down, replaced it with non-paper insulation, and then put the kraft paper insulation in the NEW walls where it will go against the drywall. If you are seeing anything else tell me. But any paper backed insulation I have is indeed the final outer layer and drywall will go over it. The various inner layers of insulation within the OLD barn walls is all NON paper backed. As I said before, I have many NEW photos depicting the changes specifically in the insulation. I have a VERY insulated barn now and all layers used were non-paper until I hit the newly framed walls in which I then switched to the paper kind. Does that cover it?Your insulation has kraft paper -- aren't you concerned about the third leaf effect? Aren't you worried about dividing your air gap into two parts, the sum of which are not equal to not having the kraft paper at all? :roll:
Hi Kathy, I agree the one-room approach can work well. You can always build gobos that you can strategically arrange around the room for recording sessions.
I have another question:
Three of the four walls of the barn are being enhanced by building an additional interior wall next to it. Basically, we are building a room within a room. But I would like to only do this on the 3 sides of the building. Almost all 3 sides are done and it is already noticeably more closed in. I don't want to lose more real estate at this point.
Instead, I was thinking of adding 3 layers of drywall to this one side (versus the 2 layers that will be on the rest of the walls).
Is that an acceptable alternative? A decent solution to save the space (as well as cut down on time)?
The fourth wall is already insulated and ready for drywall. It was done months ago before I even started the floor. It happened to be the only wall of the barn that was "brand new" when I bought the house. The builders had ripped out most of that back wall and reframed it for whatever reason. The 2 x 4's are new and it was the only wall that was level and could accept drywall as is. That's why we haven't done anything with it. The other 3 walls were hideous and obviously 100 years old - with telltale signs of blacksmiths from the past and uneven construction, etc....
But we fixed all of those by building new walls in front of them. Now the fourth and last wall looks like it belongs there at last. If I can triple layer it instead of building another wall it would suit my needs better.
But what am I giving up by going this route? A whole lot?
Kathy,
By NOT building a 4th wall isolated from the rest, you are giving up a little on isolation (because the air gap between the inner and outer wall is smaller) but probably more importantly, where this wall joins the new walls, you are going to have a DIRECT connection to the structure of the building and therefore possibly blow the entire isolation you've worked so hard for.
What you might be able to do, and I'd wait for real experts to chime in on this before proceeding, is build it like you would a ceiling on RC. In other words, you new walls would come up right to the edge of the old current wall but not physically attach to it, and the drywall in the corner would be calked but NOT mudded and taped together. That way they could vibrate independantly. On the other hand, you might be able to cover the old wall with RC and hang the dry wall on that. You'll only lose a couple of inches of floor space at most, get better isolation from the structure of the building (because of the RC) and increase your air gap (and therefore your isolation) by a couple of inches as well. If you've got 2x4 studs (really 3 1/2", then adding RC that's about 1 1/2 inches "high", would give you a total air gap of 5 inches which isn't too bad.
As I said, please wait for confirmation ( or a thorough drubbing of my idea) from the experts before proceeding. Remember, I was the one that suggested you pull up and sell the old barn floor and sent you off in a couple of wrong directions that (thankfully) those wiser than me corrected you on.
Now, to your earlier question about 1 room vs two, I'm going to comment on the idea of being "less than professional" because you don't have a "real" control room. Knightfly's comments about accoustics in the control room vs live room need to be taken to heart and Rod's comments about symetry are also valid. What you should remember as you work through this decision is my (and probably a lot of other people's) experience building our own studios: We all have a hammer and a saw but I can look at two wall sections, one built by me and one built by the carpenter/electrician that helped me and tell you who built which. And we both used the very same hammer and saw.
What I'm getting at is what your rooms look like has almost nothing to do with the quality of the music you can produce there. If you can produce top quality music because of your talent, gear, luck, or whatever, the does it really matter where you did the recording? If you hire out your studio, someone should make the decision based on the music that's come out of, not the interior design of the space. If you put out a good product, it wouldn't matter to me if you did it in the men's room a Union Station. I don't see the recording space used when I listen to CDs - I hear the music. If someone is going to judge your space based on what it looks like or how it's layed out, they more than likely wouldn't know a quality recording if it jumped up and bit them.
Take Sandersd's advice and build the space for YOU, not some potential future buyer. You can't live your life trying to please other (especially unknown other) people. Build the best space for you and enjoy it!
len
Ok, I have a sick feeling in my stomach now. The realization that this has been done wrong from the start. Remember, Scott doesn't know these techniques and I am still learning and unsure of some details and that is a dangerous combination of ignorance. My concern now is the connection between the newly framed walls and the shell of the existing building. Am I to understand they should not touch in any way? Because if that is true we have blown it. Scott has secured at least one of the newly framed walls to the ceiling joists/rafters and an end to the wall it comes in contact with on the right side. And obviously he nailed right into the subfloor. In fact, on the big slanted wall we built he slid a 2 x 4 board in the gap behind the new frame and nailed it onto the old wall and then toenailed the new frame to it. I've included a picture below. In this example, the wall is not connected to the ceiling joists. We did that on another wall. The new walls may not all be independent from the ceiling and other walls. It can't just sit on the floor and not be secured at the top or the sides so I'm assuming that you are supposed to just attach each new wall to each other? But what about the ceiling? Scott would never go for this. He is very old school and isn't digesting this audio stuff very well. In fact, if audio construction were a heart transplant his body would be rejecting it. That's kinda what I'm dealing with here. He's going to secure things for safety and have no part of my voodoo principles. But to be fair, if I had really known I could've steered him better on it. The other problem is that we only build one wall a week on Wednedays. We don't put them all up at the same time which means not having the other parts to secure to and defaulting to tradition by neccessity. I COULD fix the contact with the ceiling if advised. I can also fix where a couple of nails are holding a wall to the side of the fourth wall. But there's no way to fix the 2x4 board scenario, IF that's even a problem. Maybe it's not. About RC clips: Should I use these on ALL walls to decouple the drywall? Will that still help me?Kathy, By NOT building a 4th wall isolated from the rest, you are giving up a little on isolation (because the air gap between the inner and outer wall is smaller) but probably more importantly, where this wall joins the new walls, you are going to have a DIRECT connection to the structure of the building and therefore possibly blow the entire isolation you've worked so hard for.
Thanks for your input. I couldn't agree more.What I'm getting at is what your rooms look like has almost nothing to do with the quality of the music you can produce there. Build the best space for you and enjoy it! len
Kathy,
1st I agree mostly with Len.
If you’re going to build one room instead of two you do have an over all real estate gain, besides just making one big room… that is the space the dividing wall would have taken up. Maybe thinking of that space as enough of a gain to warrant still building the 4th inner wall… which is my vote, build that wall or at least like Len just suggested put the inner drywall on RC.
Based on what you work on I’d also go with 1 room instead of two and definitely work on making the room symmetric.
But to help everyone one out in trying to answer your question I’ll ask you a question: (and for give me if you’ve already stated this previously)
What are you sound isolation requirements? We know approximately what type of sound level you are trying to keep in the room. But what noises are there outside the room that you want to keep out? Are there people in your home you do not want to disturb at night?
A lot of us have bought a sound level meter. One of those may really help answer this question. I’ll even dare suggest that you could buy one at Radio Shack for about $50, take some measurements and then if you figure know long term use for the meter then return it after a few days.
Marc
The barn is very well isolated from the house, really. When I'm in it no one will be able to hear me nor I them. If I were to shut all the adjoining doors to the barn, back porch mudroom, and kitchen I wouldn't even be able to hear the phone ring inside. In general, we seem to have a problem hearing in that house we've noticed. When we are upstairs we cannot hear the doorbell or someone knocking on the door. I don't have to worry about kids in bed either. But I do need to take some tests. I need to walk around outside of the barn, in the back, and see if sound would come up to the back bedrooms that way. Still, my needs are minimum and I've already got a good situation to start with. There's absolutely no issues about sound coming in.Kathy, But to help everyone one out in trying to answer your question I’ll ask you a question: (and for give me if you’ve already stated this previously) What are you sound isolation requirements? We know approximately what type of sound level you are trying to keep in the room. But what noises are there outside the room that you want to keep out? Are there people in your home you do not want to disturb at night?
I would like one of those. The other night I turned up some music and went outside to hear the bleed but it was a very primitive test and I want to do more than that. Overall though, my isolation needs are not very critical. The fact that I have a building in the driveway and not just a room within the house or under the house is a real plus. Now.....what about my wall framing problem. Is it a problem for sure? And should I use RC on everything at this point?A lot of us have bought a sound level meter. One of those may really help answer this question. I’ll even dare suggest that you could buy one at Radio Shack for about $50, take some measurements and then if you figure know long term use for the meter then return it after a few days. Marc
In response to Keith's earlier inquiry about the insulation being incorrect, here is a more recent photo showing the wall after I tore down the paper backed kind and put up the proper kind. Since then, I have put the kraft faced inside of the new wall cavities.
Still hoping to hear some good news about the walls being nailed to the outer walls.
Sorry to stir up the pot so much with my comments. However, all is not lost (or that expensive or difficult to make right).
First, as to "building a wall a week..." and that being the reason you have to attach them to the structure of the building, that just isn't true. I built my entire studio (5 rooms, separate double stud walls, etc) and just leaned the frames up flat against the walls until it was time to "use" them. As I "folded" out each wall frame from it's temporary location, I nailed the corners to each other so they would all support themselves. After the walls were up, I attached the new ceiling joists between the trusses so they didn't touch the structure and attached my ceiling dry wall to these new joists. None of my walls touch the structure of the building at any point EXCEPT where the bottom plates are anchored to the cement slab. Yes, this will make me susceptable (sp?) to flanking through the slab from room to room, but since cement doesn't move quite as easily as the building ceiling trusses would, I accept that less than perfect construction. Your walls being connected to your new floor is the same sort of compromise. Not perfect (which would be a totally floating separate concrete floor a la Paul Woodlock) and there are few of us that would want to take on a job like that. I got tired just READING about his work!
Now, in your situation, if you HAVE to connect your new walls to your old ones, you can use isolated sway bars (I think that's what they are called here) like the stuff Mason Industries and others make. In it's simplest form, it's too metal plates that are joined together with a piece of neopreme so that vibrations on your inner walls will dissipate a lot of their energy into the rubber before it can transfer to the outer wall. Think of it like the shock absorber in a car: It doesn't stop you from feeling EVERY pebble on the road, but it dampens what the tires "feel" from what you feel inside the car.
If you retained anything from the reference material on this site and others it should be that you never, never, never want to join your inner and outer walls with a "hard" connection. That's like rule #1. These sway bars will take care of most of it.
Now, is this a problem FOR YOU? Perhaps not. You say isolation is not an issue. You seem to have decided on a single large room instead of live and CR so your room to room isolation is a moot point, except for your iso booth. In that case, I would plan on making it a completely self supporting structure within the bigger room so you can really achieve some isolation from the rest of the room. Connection through the floor will probably be unavoidable unless you cut out the floor where the iso booth will be and build a separate floor just for the iso booth that goes all the way down to the ground (maybe standing on a cement pilar like you are building the rest of the floor on. Since the room will be relatively small, one fairly large one in the center of the room should give you a decent platform to build a floor on and then the walls of the iso room on top of that one.
Again, it all is going to get down to how much isolation you want.
As to the RS sound level meter, if you want to measure how much isolation you are getting now, it's probably close to worthless. The reason is that the lowest it can measure is 50 dB which is the same as loud conversation. You probably already know that your building is doing AT LEAST that much isolation. If you put a CD on and turned up the signal as loud as possible, you might be able to register 100+ dB on the meter and then go outside and measure 50 on the meter. This doesn't mean you have only 50 dB of isolation, just that you have AT LEAST 50 dB because you can't measure any lower than that. If you plan to get a program like ETF (or the new version "R&D something") it would be useable for that since you are measuring RELATIVE levels that are in a much narrower range.
As to putting RC on all the walls (and ceiling), again, that's your call based on the isolation you are going to need, bearing in mind that it's not something that you can (easily) change later. If you don't have a real isolation problem (and don't forsee one in the future, like a change of neighbors), then it's probably not necessary. On the 4th wall, you wouldn't even have to worry about that since you've essentially hard attached your other 3 walls to the structure of the building. In my case, I have a house (currently vacant) less than 40 ft from the back of my building and a dentist's office about 20' away from one side of my building so isolation was/is a big factor for me and is why I made sure that all of my walls are totally isolated from the rest of the building structure (except the floor). This will give me the most isolation. Again, you've changed your design, (one room vs two) which is ok, but that also changes a lot of other factors in the construction. As I said above, room to room isolation is no longer an issue so you may be ok with the rest of what you have now.
Last point, you wanted a "crow's nest" above your iso booth. I don't see any problem with that or any big engineering problems other that just making sure that the ceililng of the iso booth can handle the weight of someone/something being on top of it. However, I wouldn't recommend having someone up there WHILE you are recording in the iso booth. If you do, then you'll have to deal with impact noise from foot steps, etc. Maybe a simple way to solve this problem would be to put the stairway to get up there on the inside of the to the iso booth so if someone was in there with the door closed, someone else wouldn't have a way to climb up there. :-)
Sorry for such a long post.
len
Don't apologize. Thank you for caring enough about my project (you and others) to take the time to post and explain. That means a lot to me.Sorry to stir up the pot so much with my comments. However, all is not lost (or that expensive or difficult to make right).
Well, yeah ok. It's true we could have done that. But in my case I would not have been able to finish working on other things around it. I take the blame for not doing it that way but months have passed and Scott is only here once a week and sometimes not at all. I have promoted myself to doing just about everything I can until I am stuck and need to be taught. When I started this I never thought I would be laying down the plywood for the floor because I didn't know how. But as time went on I realized that if I didn't do it then it wouldn't get done. So, I have done that and much much more. I've had a crash course as a carpenter. I've read the Reference section here (although I guess I have missed some important things), I've bought videos, and I've studied where I can. Yesterday, Scott was so tired that we couldn't even get one wall section built right when he was here - the whole damn building and ceiling is SOOO warped that it makes building level things impossible and frustrating. Parts of the wall were too long and hitting ceiling joists, other parts of the top plate were clearing it fine. A nightmare. He left. So what did I do? I spent the rest of the night dedicated to getting that wall up on my own. And I did. So, now I'm building walls solo. Perhaps my anxiety is causing this but leaning walls up until it was time to use them wasn't what I wanted to do. So, I take the blame for allowing them to be secured. Somewhere in the back of my mind I just knew that wasn't right.First, as to "building a wall a week..." and that being the reason you have to attach them to the structure of the building, that just isn't true. I built my entire studio (5 rooms, separate double stud walls, etc) and just leaned the frames up flat against the walls until it was time to "use" them.
If we're able to do this we will. The slanted wall only has two spots on the right side where it is nailed. The rest of it is fine, not touching the ceiling and the other side is connected to the next new wall properly (it just worked out that way). The other wall that is nailed to the ceiling joists, well, I was never planning on building a new ceiling and having new joists. I am drywalling the existing roof. So, I'm not sure how we would have secured the top unless we use the sway bars there too.Now, in your situation, if you HAVE to connect your new walls to your old ones, you can use isolated sway bars (I think that's what they are called here) like the stuff Mason Industries and others make. In it's simplest form, it's too metal plates that are joined together with a piece of neopreme so that vibrations on your inner walls will dissipate a lot of their energy into the rubber before it can transfer to the outer wall. Think of it like the shock absorber in a car: It doesn't stop you from feeling EVERY pebble on the road, but it dampens what the tires "feel" from what you feel inside the car.
Since my isolation is not as critical perhaps I will be ok then. As far as the vocal booth goes, it will be a good sized one and completely self standing. Except for the floor though. I don't want to cut down thru my existing floor and there really isn't a need to for me.Now, is this a problem FOR YOU? Perhaps not. You say isolation is not an issue. You seem to have decided on a single large room instead of live and CR so your room to room isolation is a moot point, except for your iso booth. In that case, I would plan on making it a completely self supporting structure within the bigger room so you can really achieve some isolation from the rest of the room.
Ok, I'll save $50.As to the RS sound level meter, if you want to measure how much isolation you are getting now, it's probably close to worthless. The reason is that the lowest it can measure is 50 dB which is the same as loud conversation. You probably already know that your building is doing AT LEAST that much isolation.
But if it's not difficult to do and it will increase my isolation then I would like to do it. I don't know enough about it. Is it a big extra step? My understanding is that the clips attach to the studs and then I can drywall. This is what i just read in Rod's book actually. Wouldn't doing it be an improvement for me?As to putting RC on all the walls (and ceiling), again, that's your call based on the isolation you are going to need, bearing in mind that it's not something that you can (easily) change later. If you don't have a real isolation problem (and don't forsee one in the future, like a change of neighbors), then it's probably not necessary. On the 4th wall, you wouldn't even have to worry about that since you've essentially hard attached your other 3 walls to the structure of the building.
Yes! Thank you for telling me what it is called.Last point, you wanted a "crow's nest" above your iso booth.
Actually, I don't know if that's what it is called. I just ripped the term off from old sailing ships because that's what they used them for: getting a good look out from high above the deck of the ship. Seemed like as good a name as any.Yes! Thank you for telling me what it is called.Quote: Last point, you wanted a "crow's nest" above your iso booth.
Rod's book describes the process very well (and the right TYPE of RC as well). The only thing that's "difficult" about it is you have a smaller target to hit with the drywall screws. You also have to be VERY careful (and I don't remember if Rod mentioned this or not) that when you put the screw through the dry wall and into the RC, you want to make sure the screw doesn't go through the RC and touch the stud underneath it (otherwise you are making ANOTHER hard connection point). Since you run the RC perpendicular to the direction of the studs/joists, when you mark where your studs are, they become points to NOT put screws rather than where to put screws. If you look at the shape of the RC in Rod's book, you see that the RC is acting like a spring holding the DW so any motion (from music) is absorbed by the spring action and less is transfered to the studs and therefore to the entire structure. Slightly off topic minor rant As you go through this whole process (and I think you've already learned this from when you were doing the floor), advice you receive when you present one design possibility, doesn't NECESSARILY apply if you change the design or leave out a detail. At times it can seem like we tell you to do one thing and then a few posts later tell you to do something entirely differently. In some cases, it's a difference of opinion, but in others, it's because the basic design changed and the advice you were given at first is no longer the right advice. We (or at least I) are not trying to send you off on an expensive. time consuming wild goose chase only to contradict previous advice and send you somewhere new. I think if we'd known that you were going to hard attach the new walls to the old, you would have been warned (and possibly physically flogged!) for attempting such a thing and NOT using RC. It was that little detail that started me off on this since I didn't recall you mentioning that any where before. Where your problem comes in is being new at this (and most of are), you don't always KNOW what's important to mention and what doesn't really matter. Not your fault, it just comes with the territory. So do design changes along the way. And cost overruns. I'm pushing $30K on my original $5K plan. Granted, I added buying a building to the plan but still my construction costs (and design for that matter) and nothing like what I started with. Just part of the beast we have to deal with. And if I could start all over again, I don't think I'd end up with what I have now - mostely because I've learned so much here since I started. [/end rant] :-) I'm not really sure you have to do any of this (RC, isolation sway bars, etc) since it doesn't sound like you really have to worry about isolation at all. Hard attaching to the structure WILL lower your isolation but it really sounds like that's not that important given YOUR situation and YOUR location relative to people you might disturb. Any one else reading this should remember that this is KATHY'S situation and YMMV. If your barn was on my lot, there's no way I could do this and keep the isolation that I need so that always has to be taken into account.But if it's not difficult to do and it will increase my isolation then I would like to do it. I don't know enough about it. Is it a big extra step? My understanding is that the clips attach to the studs and then I can drywall. This is what i just read in Rod's book actually. Wouldn't doing it be an improvement for me?
And on top of that, we studio builders tend to not like straight walls and 90 degree corners for what we build! :-) Kathy, you're doing fine! You've learned and done far more than I did on my project but my "Scott" was available a little more often I didn't have to rely on my own skills as much as you are having to, at least when it came to the basic structural framing and raw drywall. All the finish work though I am totally to blame for! len- the whole damn building and ceiling is SOOO warped that it makes building level things impossible and frustrating. Parts of the wall were too long and hitting ceiling joists, other parts of the top plate were clearing it fine. A nightmare.
Kahy,
Isn't it pssible (now that all these walls are tied together) for you to remove the cross member they are connected to - it seems as simple to me as a sawzall and maybe a couple hours of labor.
The you could install some isolators to make it right.
I have a problem with the installation of RC - although on a standard studwall you get about 3 or so dB of additional isolation - yuou spent tons (and I do mean tons) of money here for double wall construction - and you are just going to basically throw all that money away - PLUS spend additional funds - to get what you had in the first place with outside walls alone (and adding RC).
You are not going to gain back anywhwre near the full value of the double walls you constructed. In fact - although RC raise STC it actually lowers TL value (slightly) in the lower frequencies.............
This is throwing good money away after bad.............
If you really don't want to remove the member, then my best reccomendation would be - don't bother with the RC - just live with whatever the short brings.......
Sincerely,
Rod
On the RS sound meter, i have one and that IS a frustrating thing about it, that it doesn't go below 50. but one way to use it i've seen mentioned recently that would work, and perhaps work better than the standard way, is to turn up the volume inside, see what that registers, and then see how low you have to turn down the volume inside before it is not noticeable outside. this inside sound should be well over 50db (we hope!)
the way this is BETTER is that your using your own ear to determine what is acceptable leakage, not a meter. a meter can't really judge what your neighbor may or may not be bothered by, but you can.
you could even generate tones at different frequencies inside, say 40hz, 50hz, whatever you want, to test low end iso, read the meter, then go outside to see if you can hear it. optimally, you'd want to create a pulsing on/off tone, because that would be a lot easier to hear than a steady tone. and is also the type of thing that a neighbor finds more noticeable and annoying.
Well, I'm pushing forward and moving on. I've studied the walls in the barn and to my pleasant surprise they were NOT attached on one of the areas I thought. In fact, the one one 2x4 cross member is the only real problem. We will attempt to remove that and make sure everything else is good too.
Even if it's not 100% detached I am still very happy with my progress and luckily, for my needs, most of these issues are not critical. My sound isolation will be what I need.
I HAVE to take this outlook. You must remember that when I started this I truly had never used a saw before, didn't know what a joist was, and thought Scott was going to build this while I assisted and learned. But I have really poured my very being and every stitch of time I have into this and have done 90% of the cutting, hammering, insulating, drilling, and just plain building like my life depended on it. He just hasn't been able to be here enough and I wasn't going to sit and stare at it. I see the imperfections but when I walk on the floor or look at those walls I see my work and I see a place that is going to be an extension of me for quite possibly the rest of my life.
So, I will get discouraged by nothing and accept any shortcomings that I or the barn itself present when the studio is final. It's going to be FAR better than any bedroom studio I've worked in before and up til now the music productions coming out of there have been very, very good so I can only imagine how this will impact my production skills in a new environment.
I can't thank all of you enough for taking an interest and looking out after me. I know I'm a lot to babysit based on my lack of knowledge and hands on experience. But it is this forum that has made the room as good as it is so far and I hope that you'll continue to push me and stop me where I'm going astray.
Now, I'm going back to work. I had a question posted over in the Installation and Wiring forum that no one has answered. Perhaps someone can take a look and help me out there?
Kathy's Question
Yes! This is the same attitude I have. I have been walking throught the new studio, and I keep thinking of things I could do different, and possibly better, but I know that I have to push on. It is still going to be sooooo much better than where I work now, and I do some pretty darn good stuff there. I have been to several "Pro Studios" that have a LOT more compromises than your or my studio has. Go Girl! TomSo, I will get discouraged by nothing and accept any shortcomings that I or the barn itself present when the studio is final. It's going to be FAR better than any bedroom studio I've worked in before and up til now the music productions coming out of there have been very, very good so I can only imagine how this will impact my production skills in a new environment.