Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

Wow! Looks like a virtual copy of Andy's situation, right down to the adhesive vinyl (and asbestos?) tile! Sympathies abound! :(

Keith - once again your keen eye for safety has proven you as a life-saver on this forum. It's true what they say about people who assume, except that I was the only ass here. I had assumed that being as my house was only 27 years old there was no chance it could be asbestos. But sure enough; I followed the link you sent meand sure enough on page 5 I found the floor tile pattern that matches mine (see picture below). So thank you Keith for saving me. Though I have been pretty careful up until now due to suspected mold issues, this changes everything and calls for a whole new approach. I just realised that the tile will have to come up for them to dig into the slap for the drainage / sump pump system, and gauranteed they will not want to touch the tile knowing it contains asbestos. I guess I am going to have to bite the bullet and shell out more of my hard earned greens for it's removal. I did read on Bobvilla.com the process of removal, but I'm not sure how comfortable I feel removing this myself. I guess I'll see how much the quotes come back as. And to Keith #2, thanks for droping by, saying hello and sharing some pics. It's great to know someone else locally on a similar project., as well as to know that I am not alone in my challenges here. Thanks also for the heads-up on the suppliers. I look forward to being able to help each other out. Hopefully we will have no more big nasty surprises lurking! Andy

Andy, I feel your pain of set backs with existing conditions :!: You've sure uncovered a lot of problem areas to deal with before you get close to actually building a studio. Asbestos has been on mine mind lately, if it helps, be glad it’s on your floor not on your ceiling. I got 1700 to 1800 square feet of popcorn ceiling with 2% asbestos in it. Removing it from ceiling is messy and knowing it’s up there with kids playing with just a balloon in my house disturbs me. EDIT: I posted in the Safety During Demolition, Construction with more info on asbestos. If your not 100% certain that tile contains asbestos you can have a sample tested. That’s how I found out about my ceiling. I’ll be watching your post for the quote on removal. When I get to filling my hollow concrete block wall with sand I will post pictures on my thread. Be safe, Marc

andy_eade wrote:

Keith - once again your keen eye for safety has proven you as a life-saver on this forum. . . sure enough; I followed the link you sent meand sure enough on page 5 I found the floor tile pattern that matches mine (see picture below). . . So thank you Keith for saving me.

Andy, thank you for taking my concerns seriously and for being so diligent in documenting everything for everyone's benefit. 8) I surely hope you have some good news to share about your project soon! :roll: These discoveries have to be very discouraging for you as you watch costs rise, time lines extend, worries increase, and work loads rise. When these things get to you, take my advice and just take a break from it all. Also, if you have an end date in mind, forget it and just proceed at whatever pace that circumstances dictate: it'll get done when it gets done! You and I are a lot alike in that we're committed to doing this thing once and doing it right. Be thankful that you didn't rush into things -- imagine the catastrophic mistakes you're not making! Hang in there, Andy! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Well here is today's news so far. I have talked to a couple of Asbestos removal companies to get further inmformation. And here is what I learned. - Towards the end of the 70's (when my hous ewas built); absestos was in all the headlines. Consequently alot of homebuilders avoided using such material for floor tiles etc. - Manufacturers like Armstrong were producing identical tiles both with and without asbestos. So there is a 50% chance that my tile does not conatin asbestos. - The mastic used to glue the tiles down may also contain asbestos. Apparantly builders continued to used these products into the 80's and in some cames the early 90's. Apparantly with mine being black in color; there is an 80% chance that it does contain Asbestos. In which case they would need to treat the whole area, including tile. Approx cost of removal for my area (250 sq ft) $1200 to $1800. So, for now I have overnighted samples of the tile and mastic down to a lab in Richmond, who will run an analysis on the products within 24 hours - so I should have a definitive answer sometime Wedenesday. One of the other guys I was talking to this morning said that I should at least feel happy in the knowledge that I did not begin removing this. One of his jobs today was going out to a house where the guy had already removed 2/3rds of a floor before finding out that it contained asbestos. Besides the fact that he subjected himself, wife, and children to it's damaging effects - they have now had to abandon the home until it's treatment is complete. Treatment which will now incorporate indentifying how much of the fibers were released into other areas of the house. Clean up from his blunder could cost him tens of thousands to fix! So... if there's one thing we all can learn here. When begining the demolition stage: - Always Listen to Keith's wise words of warning!!! -Regardless of what you can see - proctect yourself for the worst based on what you can't see. - Seal off all doors or area's where air can escape from the work zone with Polythene sheeting and duct tape. Seal off any A/C Outlets and returns. Cover door bottoms with a wet towel. The entire area should be airtight. - Steel toe boots, NOISH Respirator, Goggles that cover the eyes completely, Gloves, Bunny Suit (Disposable Overalls) and hard hat are all a must. - Question everything. Call an expert, or call one in. Better to spend $50 to find out there is no risk than to knock 20 years (or worse) off your life (or your family's life) for free. Besides, most experts you call or come out for an initial consultation charge nada! - Complete thorough research (as I know we all do here) before beginning any stage to fully understand it's complexities and how to deal with them. i.e. I found mold - how do I get rid of it. - Know your limitations. Know what is within your ability, and what makes more sense to call in a proffessional for. The demo stage can be quite fun. Breaking stuff up with a wrecking bar - heck - it's like being a kid again, but please take care to mitigate any risks first. more news to come soon. Andy.

I have a wide range of emotions about this... There's the "Whew! Close call!" feeling, similar to that of seeing a very near-miss incident on the freeway. There's the heartfelt appreciation for the thanks I have received. And, yes, I'll admit, there's a certain amount of pride. These all come in waves. But the one feeling that remains constant is that of empathy to our brother Andy here, who just can't seem to catch a break. First it's the suspicion of mold, then came termite damage, then came a compromised shell that leads to water intrusion (hence the mold -- at least there's an explanation), and now probable asbestos abatement. :-( I'm sure those who are close to you hate to see this project consuming you as it has been doing. :roll: Anyway, before this turns into an obligatory awkward group hug, let it be known that we're all rooting for you and we're all hoping for your sake that you can actually catch a break. Keep an eye on the prize -- something that often gets lost or forgotten in the "myopic now." And when (not if) you get frustrated, resist the urge to throw the claw hammer across the room, and instead, just post here -- or, heck, write a freakin' song. This audience "gets it." :) --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith... I appreciate the support. I am far from beat beleive me. It takes a lot to hold me down! I just hope that others will be able to learn from my thread someday as I have learned, and continue to learn from y'alls. It may be time to change my signature though... :D Andy

Andy, My vote is for you to get safety tip of the year from your comment:

-Regardless of what you can see - proctect yourself for the worst based on what you can't see.

I thought about that comment all night at gig. The approx cost for removal was lower then I would have guessed... but hopefully test results will show negative and you'll be closer to the end of project. My fingers are crossed for you. 8) Marc

Andy_Eade wrote:

-Regardless of what you can see - proctect yourself for the worst based on what you can't see.

Yeah -- kind of like, don't pass on a blind curve -- assume a Mack truck is heading your way! 8)

Okay so the news is back from the lab already (boy they were quick)... and it's not good I'm afraid: Report Date: 02/21/06 ANDREW EADE HERNDON, VA 20170 **** FINAL REPORT **** ________________________________________________________________________________ Date Received: 02/21/06 Date Sampled: Sample Type: 2 - Bulk Sample(s) Project: PO Number: CK 1009 Analytical Results Total % Layer Client No.\ Lab Asbestos % of Results Description ID in Samp Samp Sample Components per Layer ____________________ ___ ________ _____ ________________ ____________ FLOOR TILE -001 10 100 BEIGE FLOOR TILE Chrysotile 10 % Non-fibrous 90 % ----------------------------------------------------------- ADHESIVE -002 ND,<1 100 TAN/BLACK MASTIC Non-fibrous 100 % It shows a 10% trace in the tile, none in the mastic. So now I'm waiting for a call back from the removal company. To find out more. I'm assuming even 1% requires proffesional removal... :(

Bagged up all of the drywall and insulation tonight ready for a trip to the landfill at the weekend. I also needed to clear up ready for a visit from Young Enviromental tomorrow who are coming to inspect the wretched floor tiles and offer me the quote. This guy thinks it should be more in the region of $800 to $1000 considering it is only the tile that contains the Asbestos (makes removal a lot easier). Also have someone coming to look at my Firebird tomorrow. I really don't want to sell her, but I think she's going to have to go :cry: Considering I'm already $6500 in the hole before putting hammer to nail - the cash will come in very handy!!! Everyone say bye bye Birdy!

Ooooooh, that's gotta' hurt! :-( I assume you have alternate transportation...?

she is gone... no more Firebird :cry: Still, it seems she is going to a good home, plus I wont need a "fun" car when I have my "fun" studio :D So the Asbestos guy came out to do the measurements and give me a quote. Turns out I had a little more than I originally thought, so I'm looking at $1635 for complete removal followed by independant air testing. They also wanted to charge $50 to take out the toilet in the bathroom, the vanity in the bathroom and the vanity / wet bar from the control room. As you can imagine, not wanting to pay another dime that was my project for this evening. The good news is they will be here first thing in the morning and done by the time I get home from work. Then we can deal with the bugs and the wet. Then, maybe soon I can begin some building! :D

So I wanted to give you all the latest as well as ask a question - Probably the obvious one for me to ask at this stage. Actually it is more like –can you guys check my math. · My ceiling joists are 2x8’s 16”o.c and are Hem Fir grade 1 and Spruce Pine Fir grade 2 (label pics available by links). · The joists run about 20’, but are supported at the 12’ point by an iron I-bar see the following picture for detail on this. Does this mean that my max span is actually only 12’? I’m assuming so… · Plugging the above data into the span calculator using the SPF (as this is the lesser wood of the two) I see that I am at 12’ with a 40/15 load. · I am estimating 3psf for existing framing, 3.5 for sub floor and flooring above. Which would leave me about 8.5psf – wouldn’t that only be enough for only 3 layers of rock? I.e 4 would be 9.2 – 5 would be 11.5 (i.e.total weight would be 18psf). · Having said that – the Hem Fir does return a 12’2” span with a 40/2 load and the Hem Fir is used in much of the area above the drum room (i.e. where beef up is needed most). This is also the area where above in the Living Room I have my 52” big-screen. SO… My questions are: 1. Is my math good? Am I using the calculator properly? 2. Can I afford to use the Hem Fir in my calculations given that this is used for much of the area I want to add the extra layers too? 3. Given the above – should I beef up only above the drum room? What would be my best bet for the control room if I can only add a maximum of 3 layers. · 3 finish layers with no beef up? · 2 finish layers with 1 beef up layer? · 1 finish layer with 2 beef up layers? I think that’s about it for my questions for now. Here are the headlines and updates on my projects so far since my last post. · Demo is complete. All Asbestos is gone. All ceiling, walls, insulation, vanities and toilets are gone, and have been taken to the landfill site as of Saturday. Phew!!! (no more hidden surprises now hopefully.) · HVAC Quote came in at $2800 to run two slave dampered supplies and returns, one pair for the control room and one for the Drum Room, each having their own separate thermostat with Mercury switch (silent). This also includes an outdoor air intake being added. He wants to use flex duct throughout and will ensure a minimum of 2 90 degree turns. Does this sound okay? · Approx Electrical quote for rough in of separate circuits for CR and DR, plus replacement panel, plus integrated lightening protection comes to be about $900. Electrician recommended a product that is easily available at Lowes for surface mounting that is some kind of plastic capped product. He said it is very easy to add extra outlets etc. Hope to go take a look. · I have decided that being as I have invested in so much protection elsewhere in the basement that now would also be a good time to mitigate my risk from the one other source of massive moisture problems – my hot water heater. It is 27 years old and is very rusty at the bottom and has even left some rusty water stains on the slab so I’m pretty sure it’s a ticking time-bomb. My HVAC guy says he can install a system for $800 that includes a water safety device and drain pan. This apparently continually monitors to ensure there are no leaks and shuts of the water if it detects one. So… on the one hand it looks like there is nothing to show for all the work yet. But it’s more like a blank canvas with lots of potential right now. I was so grateful to my buddy who’s Dad lent us the pick up truck on Saturday and who gave me a half day of his time to help me take all of my demo-crap to the dump. And now begins the preliminary stages of progress. · Beef up · HVAC · Electrical Rough in · New Hot Water Heater · Sump Pump System More to come soon including new pics. Andy Edit: Just thought of one other question for Steve- given that I should have a basement that is drier than the sahara by next week - do you think should still be worried about using wood studs with plywood - or can I now allow the drywall contractor to use metal studs and drywall throughout?

andy_eade wrote:

All Asbestos is gone.

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) Congratulations!! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) What a relief!! :D

andy_eade wrote:

. . . now would also be a good time to mitigate my risk from the one other source of massive moisture problems – my hot water heater. It is 27 years old and is very rusty at the bottom and has even left some rusty water stains on the slab so I’m pretty sure it’s a ticking time-bomb. My HVAC guy says he can install a system for $800 that includes a water safety device and drain pan. This apparently continually monitors to ensure there are no leaks and shuts of the water if it detects one.

Good thinking. If you're going to spend that much on a "regular" water heater with the bells and whistles you describe, why not spend a bit more and get a state-of-the-art tankless water heater that heats water on demand? They're supposed to be extremely efficient and they take up far less space. --Keith :mrgreen:

I looked into those, but the estimate I got was going to run me more than triple the cost of the other one and I also have heard some horror stories about these not providing enough water for more than a 5 minute shower. Sorry to hear about Pipkin by the way. Named after Watership down fame I'm guessing. I dread the day my dog is gone - uggh! Rest in Peace Pipkin! Shar / Steve / Dan/ Anyone - any thoughts on my joists questions? I want to begin the beef-up stage but don't want to start anything until I'm sure on the math. Thanks as always, Andy

My span calculator shows nearly 20 PSF dead load for your SPF #2, your calculations are fine; you should be able to add a total of 3 layers of 5/8 drywall no sweat. I would distribute those layers this way; one layer of "beef" up between joists, as per keiths and other threads, and two layers hung on RSIC clips/hat channel, with GG between those two layers. Complete fill with UN-faced fiberglass batts, normal house weight. Don't recall if you're doing multiple studio rooms, but if so you should do your walls first and NOT do a continuous ceiling between rooms. If you plan on having a dehumidifier in the space when not in use, sheet rock/steel is fine. Just remember to use a thermal break between frame and concrete, get a couple cans of zinc chromate primer and paint any cuts/trims of the steel studs before covering them up, and do NOT use any insulation with ANY kind of vapor barrier between rooms... Steve

andy_eade wrote:

Sorry to hear about Pipkin by the way. Named after Watership down fame I'm guessing.

Thanks, Andy. Right you are on the Watership Down connection:

Pipkin - The smallest of the rabbits. Pipkin is Fiver's friend and is fiercely loyal to Hazel. Hazel can often count on Pipkin to follow him without questioning and without hesitating. (Source)

Thanks Steve. Do you think that will be enough mass to isolate my late night drumming from the rest of the house or do you think I can add another "beef-up" layer, and maybe even one more layer on the RSIC clips and channel? Keith - Pipkin was always my favorite, but I remember many a nightmare about General Woundwort!

Yeah, actually you could add a total of 5 layers of 5/8 rock - 2 "beef" and 3 under. If you're concerned with drums I'd still use GG on at least one layer of the underside - I think I'd put the GG on the last layer, making sure the insulation is complete fill of fluffy fiberglass... Steve

Long time no post here :D Been away travelling for a week. Couple of days in NJ on business and then a weekend down in Memphis where I felt honoured to stand in the legendary Sun Studio's. So to give you the latest updates: - Drainage system / Sump Pump system is installed, and I have to say that they did a pretty good Job. I now have to wait 3-4 weeks for the cement to cure before I can begin framing walls on top. The guy that did the work suggested not firing any kind of bolts down into the cement for the bottom plates as he said it will not hold and will just break the new cement. He suggested using liquid nails. Does this sound okay? Has anyone tried this? Also - what if chose to go with Steel studs - how would I affix those? - HVAC guy has completed install of the new hot water heater and the preliminary work on the A/C. This was basically clearing up the cruddy job the last home-owner had left. Again - an excellent job done! (pics will be coming soon on all of this I promise). - Building permit arrived today (yeay!). Cost $183. Peace of Mind - priceless! :D All looks good except one alarming comment they added to the plan - "Habitable rooms shall be a minimum 70 sq. ft and minimum dimension of 7ft". I'm wondering what the definition of "habitible" is. Is it a room that a human will spend time in? i.e is my booth "habitible"? 'Coz it's definitely not 70sq feet by a long stretch. Any ideas? - Finally a funny story, actually quite embarassing really. So the termite guy was supposed to come out Friday to do the treatment. He arrives, takes a look around, discusses the gameplan with me, has me sign a copy of the contract, and then asks me to bring the yellow copy that the inpsector had originally left here. I go and bring it to him and he takes one look and says "Wait, this is for a different company". I apologize and explain that I had gotten quotes from 3 different companies etc. But as I am walking back upstairs I look at the yellow copy I had brought down and realize that this is the copy I signed, and is the company I agreed to have do the work - Superior Pest Treatment. The guy downstairs is from Permatreat, and I never agreed for them to do the work - they were never actually even in the running being as they didn't offer the lifetime damage warranty that both Terminix and Superior offered. So I then realized what had happened: -3 companies gave me their quotes. -I sign with Superior. -We make an appt for Saturday. -Saturday appointment is postponed so that they can perform the treatment at the same time as the basement drainage / sump pump system is installed (i.e. while the slab is cut open). I agree to call them as soon as I the date is scheduled. -The drainage company finally call and tell me the date that they plan to come out and do the Sump Pump sytem install. - Ironically the same day I get a call from the "termite company" asking when "we're going to do this thing". I ass-u-me that it is superior and ask if they can come out Monday or Tuesday while the work is being done and they say no-can-do. But agree to come out Friday. -Friday roles around and, well, you know the rest from here. So it's true what they say about people who assume. That's right - I'm a ass ladies and gentlemen. The guy did try to tell me that I had just signed a copy of his contract; but realized quicky that I was in no mood to be messing around and detsroyed the contract. So that is the latest. Pics will come soon. Thanks Steve for the help on the joists. I am now ready to begin "beefing-up" while I wait for my cement to cure. Other than that - I have to sleep. It was a log sleepless weekend in memphis. Saturday night I witnessed the longest set from a band ever - 311 played at the Mid-town Collesium for 4h35 minutes - amazing! Actually it was 5 hours, but they took a 10 a nd 15 minute break to allow some drum core and marching band to come on and play some 311 covers. Either way - that's quite an achievement! And I thought I was tired! :D

andy_eade wrote:

The guy that did the work suggested not firing any kind of bolts down into the cement for the bottom plates as he said it will not hold and will just break the new cement. He suggested using liquid nails. Does this sound okay?

Liquid Nails is most likely not to code. Talk to your building department. Too bad you couldn't plan ahead and have them set J bolts in the concrete. You may need to drill holes into the concrete and use anchor bolts.

"Habitable rooms shall be a minimum 70 sq. ft and minimum dimension of 7ft". I'm wondering what the definition of "habitible" is. Is it a room that a human will spend time in? i.e is my booth "habitible"?

Please verify this with your local building officials... But my understanding is that one of the criteria for habitable space is conditioned air... So you may not be able to put A/C in the booth. You'll notice that closets in your house don't have air conditioning ducts........ In any event, consult with those local building department folks. Establish yourself as the friendly musician DIY studio builder guy with a great sense of humor who's always a pleasure to work with, yet very persistent in making sure he understands everything he needs to in order to minimize complications and surprises later on. :) And remember, "Piccies or it didn't happen!" ;-)

I know [sic] have to wait 3-4 weeks for the cement to cure before I can begin framing walls on top. The guy that did the work suggested not firing any kind of bolts down into the cement for the bottom plates as he said it will not hold and will just break the new cement. He suggested using liquid nails.

FYI: Concrete's most rapid period of strength gain occurs in the first 7 days. The accepted time standard for measuring concrete strength is 28 days. However, concrete will continue to gain strength for long periods of time (months, even years!) As long as moisture is present to continue the chemical process of hydration. If you're waiting three weeks to start framing, you can shoot all the nails your heart desires. Think about it: in new home construction all the interior walls are set using powder actuated fasteners. How long do the framers wait before starting the framing? Whatever you do, wait at least seven days. Drilling for 1/2" anchor bolts is also a great way to secure the wall plates. :D

Thanks SandersD. Much appreciated info that I did not know before. Much like everything here! :)

Okay - as promised here are the long awaited pictures of the progress in the basement. Namely: Sump system install, New Hot Water Heater System, Complete Removal of all Ceiling and (Asbestos) flooring. Enjoy!