Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

What to do about my "potential" basement moisture issue - The final Chapter Really calling on your help here guys. So the basement waterproofers came back out tonight to try and turn the thumbscrews a little more about installing a French drain leading to a sump pit and pump. We took a moisture meter thingy and it did detect high levels of moisture in the sill plate and 2x4's near the ground and especially so in the concrete slab. He said that considering the investment and work that is soon to take place he would highly advise doing it. He says that he sees all the signs that there has been a more substantial leak at some point. Rotted tack plates that were holding the carpet. A sandy dust left after the carpet & foam removal. And of course, you all saw the pictures of the tide marks on the back of the carpet I removed... I explained to him that I had read that the exterior treatment is advised first (downspout extenders, unclogging gutters, adding soil / regrading the exterior) before moving to this kind of interior treatment, and that neither he or his colleage last week seemed to follow this ethic. He said this was because he beleives the problem is not due to drainage so much as a high water table below grade. He may be right about that; I know my back yard has no grass and all moss, and water tends to just sit there after heavy rain. So... last week they wanted $6600 for the work. He says they need to fill a space from a job that finished early and for that reason they can offer me a discounted rate of $4992. With further negotiating using my "anti-car salesperson" skills I managed to get them down to $4400 if I signed today with 10% down and 6 months interest free for the remainder. So... I signed... But then after he left and reality set in I started questioning my instincts. I have, by law 3 days to cancel the contract. I also started looking online for rough prices of this kind of work. Does seem like a good deal for 2 days very heavy labour for a 2 - 3 man crew. I finally decided to put out another ServiceMagic request to see if I could get a couple of competitors quotes. Within literally 1 minute of clicking send I had a call on my cellphone from from the first recipient - Jim from About Plumbing. He said that the rate (the $6600) seems about right, but he would question whether or not I need the work done given that I have not yet seen any puddles of water. He suggested canceling the contract and keeping the area under close supervision during the next 2 months through a couple of heavy rainstorms. I might add that he actually suggested that the Sump Pump might not be necessary before I told him about the contract and the other guy etc. So he legitemly was questioning the need of such treatment. Of course if I cancel this now I may not get the chance to get such a great rate again. $4400 does seem to be a pretty good deal for the work. The Worldwide waterproofing guy's argument is that there has been water in the basement at some point. Maybe it was prior to me living here (There was a significant tropical storm back on '03 I think), and next time we get some really significant rainful like that I should really have my investement protected. It all holds a lifetime, transferable warranty. Peace of mind for me and any future owner. But is it necessary??? What do you all think? Should I go ahead with it or should I cancel for now? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? p.s. one other benefit I forgot to mention... as a part of the procedure, they check to see if there are any pockets beneath the slab where settlement has occurred and fill it with slurry. This would be good for the future application of this room no? i.e. if there are any pockets, filling them would reduce flanking / resonance problems?

my two cents: if you feel regret after making the deal that is a sign that you should cancel in my opinion. even if you decide eventually to do that work, i'd think twice before hiring someone who "puts the thumscrews" on you. :?

andy_eade wrote:

Is there anyway to overcome this 3 leaf problem other then drilling the cinderblock and filling with sand?

I just went through a complete review of cinder block 3 leaf thing. All opinions and immediate one from Knightly were YES fill the blocks and the 16” footer under wall could take the extra weight no problem. If I were you I would try and figure out the weight difference 1st if that’s what you choose, but your situation is different then mine. I was surprised how quickly 4 people (architect, concrete guy, contractor & kinghtfly) I asked said yes it could take the weight. I only have about 10 feet to fill of one outer wall fill. And I'm choosing to fill it with sand because I can do it myself. Do it myself mortar sounds messy, paying to have a truck pump concrete in would be too expensive. I’m planning on using my hammer-drill, got to buy a masonry hole saw (carbide tip set of 8 on eBay $25, I can’t find diamond tip price yet or even if they make them) and then spoon/funnel sand into cavities. If I clean cut with the hole saw I can use the cut out circle and cement to patch holes. I’m not looking forward to that job. Most likely cavities of your block are same width and length as mine 5” x 5”. I know mine are about 82” high. And the other option which is not as good is to add mass to the inner side of the cinder block... which will screw up decoupling floor, ceiling and other walls. I couldn't think may way around it. AND I just found STC rating for 8" cinder block: hollow = 48, filled with grout = 55, filled with sand = 52 Hope that helps a bit, Marc

Cancel the contract. That "between jobs, great deal, today only, sign right now" stuff is B.S. Even if you later determine that the work is necessary, use a different contractor with some scruples. I absolutely shudder at the thought of what those jerks are doing to the vulnerable, the elderly... :evil: Did you see the video I linked to on February 9 on this thread? The "professional" plumbing contractor I "discovered" on ServiceMagic?!

I'm inclined to agree with sharward. Spur-of-the-moment decisions involving large amounts of money are rarely advisable. Do your research, monitor your basement condition for a couple of months, decide what you are going to do and how much you are willing to spend, and perhaps most difficult but most important, always be prepared to say no -to walk away - if it costs more than you've decided it should. Sharward is absolutely right about the "today only special deals". :twisted: Check out this book from Taunton Press - publishers of Fine Homebuilding and Fine Woodworking. It's called Remodeling a Basement, expert advice from start to finish. Look inside the book at Amazon.com I have several books by this publisher and they only show top quality construction techniques by pro builders and craftsmen - construction how it should be done :!: By the way, 1x3 and 2x2 wall furring for basements is fairly typical. Little insulation, generally 3/4" of foam, is required where the exterior is below grade due to the insulating qualities of earth. Where the exterior wall is exposed, of course walls need more insulation. Certainly the electrical boxes were improperly installed. :shock:

Thanks guys for your feedback... Am I to assume that if I do indeed cancel the contract, that I will be out of pocket for the $400 deposit I put down?

As an update. I have talked to a couple of his previous clients and they were very satisfied with the work that was done. One lady said that she had mold issues before in the carpets, but since the treatment it is okay. Nevertheless I am still sceptical. So, in my lunch hour I went home and set up a hose, set it to "shower" and pointed at the corner in question. I observed it for about an hour and saw nothing. I have left it on for the afternoon and see what I come home too. I'm thinking that with all the snow melting at such a rapid rate (it is 62 out today) and by adding my simulated tropical storm I should see something if there is indeed the need for the sump pump treatment. I might even try drilling a hole in one of the block when I get home to see if there is any water in there... More to come tonight...

You should get all your money back when you cancel. Accept nothing less.

NEWSFLASH Tropical storm Andy Warning...Tropical Storm Andy Warning... Well, it's official. I have water! My tropical storm simulator seemed to do the trick. I let the hose run for about 6 hours and I am now seeing significant moisture showing up on a couple of the cinderblocks. I will go and take some pictures and post them soon. I also will update you with some news having just had my friends dad in who is a drywall contractor and is willing to provide me some manpower to help. More to follow soon...

Wow -- not good news, but certainly better news to discover this now than to wait until later when everything is built. Imagine what a disaster that would have been! :? I'm still not a fan of the sleazy high pressure salespeople from that contractor's outfit.

Yes. To be honest I am almost releived. At least this way I can have peace of mind knowing that I have adressed the problem. Otherwise I would always be wondering what was going on behind my wall. I read that CBS artcile with horror Keith... Horrifying also that ServiceMagic would recommend them. Ironically I have had the opposite experience. Everyone ServiceMagic has refferred me to have been great, and the one company I sourced on my own turned out to be the cowboys! Go Figure! Got quite a bit of demo completed tonight. 2 walls now complete. As you can see from the pics - that gave me a better view of the moisture coming in. Much of it was hidden by the studs. I also got a closer look at the holes in the blocks from the Outlet installation. I found also in removing some of the 2x4's that the nails would pull out lumps of concrete from the blocks... so you have to be rather careful. Anyone have any thoughts on how to seal up the blocks from this and the outlet box holes? Also Marc. I was thinking about your plan to fill the blocks with sand, but then realised that I am overlooking something... I also have a layer of brick on the outside of the cinderblock. Surely all this mass is enough to overcome the detriment of the 3 leaf effect? Heck the brick may already be my 3rd leaf??? What do you think? Enough chatter and on to the pics...

Aloha Andy, Sorry to hear about that much moisture coming through, but I guess it's better that you found the problem now rather than later. Sheesh! A couple of things for you: - I was putzing around with one of your pics and found that I could lighten it up quite a bit to show your room a little better. :D

I found also in removing some of the 2x4's that the nails would pull out lumps of concrete from the blocks... so you have to be rather careful.

Any chance you can fill your block with sand or grout (Yeah, I know...major work involved!) through those holes, and then patch up the holes with grout, and maybe even rendered?

I was thinking about your plan to fill the blocks with sand, but then realised that I am overlooking something... I also have a layer of brick on the outside of the cinderblock. Surely all this mass is enough to overcome the detriment of the 3 leaf effect? Heck the brick may already be my 3rd leaf???

I think if the brick is right up against the block w/o any air space between them, then you might get a way with it counting as a 2 leaf. Better still, if you could fill the blocks you would have a good single leaf to work inward from, provided the above is true. I would definitely be interested in seeing what Steve would say to point you in the right direction here. Hope things work out. Aloha 8)

This is probably the worst nightmare of any potential homeowner in general, but the worst nightmare of potential home studio owners/builders for sure. man, I hope that you invested in several pairs of overalls, the best NIOSH mask and extra cartridges that money can buy, gloves (including surgical ones) and are wearing safety glasses that fit snug around your eyes. If not, I hope you have been downing several of those scrumptious tetleys after being done pulling that crap apart. :lol: Let this thread be a reminder to ANYONE attempting to convert a house or a part thereof for the purpose of putting in a studio: wear protective gear. Even if you dont have these extreme moisture and insect conditions, always remember that the "bite" is in what you CAN NOT see. And the effect of the "bite" may not pop up for years to come!!! What kinds of things am I talking about: for starters: nail fungus, also called onychomycosis. brittle nasty looking nails. an infection that lives deep in your nail bed. topical ccreams dont work. you'll need Rx meds such as Lamisil or Sporanox, both heavy duty drugs, that require LFT tests (liver function tested via vial of blood). You will need to be on these meds for at least a year, with no alcohol consumption. also you will need to throw most of your shoes away. costly indeed. but imagine if you are a performer and your finger nails look like shit: does not promote your image does it?? also playing guitar might actually become painful. eye infections: anything from conjunctivitis to skin rashes or worse lung problems, sinus head aches, constant post nasal drip. imagine having to sing with that 24/7?? fuggettaboutit! also, the danger lies not only in what you pull apart. It also lies in the materials used during the conversion.

Great points, David -- perhaps you can amend the "Safety During Demolition, Construction" thread with your suggestions and comments. 8) Andy, hang in there buddy. It looks like the moisture is seeping in along the mortar joints. Here's a cool page on repairing holes in block walls. In ServiceMagic's defense, once I contacted ServiceMagic about the CBS report on Drain Patrol's alleged fraudulent activities, they supposedly dropped them from their roster and thanked me for the heads-up. Still, it does make one wonder about their screening process... :roll:

with regards to service magic in the eternally funny words of Monty Python: RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I rent and in 2 instances my landlord used these clowns: 1: to replace blinds in the living room 2: to replace the insinkerator. after the work was done on both, one evening we are sitting in the living room watching tv when we all (including our digs) jumped up from the crashing noiseof the blinds rail falling off the wall.......why? the moron had not bothered to use anchors and screws to fasten the rail. the handywork on the insinkerator resulted in a mouldy cabinet under the sink: the moron in question had failed to put plumbers putty around the fitting ring and failed to use plumbers tape on every screw thread connection. since then I have done every project myself and have saved my landlord mucho money, which I have used to negotiate a rent freeze for the next 5 years.

It's too bad because I really like the ServiceMagic concept. It's just that they apparently have a screening problem, at least in some markets.

Thanks David. I have been very careful, and thought I might have been, at times overly cautious. Hard hat, steel toe boots, goggles, respirator, overalls and gloves for every visit. Towels blocks the door bottoms and a "air-lock" type thing using 4 mil poly. I just keep looking at some of the other great success stories here and the pictures of the finished product like Andy's Wiseminds studio and it keeps my eyes on the prize. :D I will be posting again later to update you all on my meeting with the drywall contractor. Best Regards, Andy

So I met with my freinds Dad last night and went through my plan with him. He is a Drywall contractor and wanted to know how (and if) he could assist me in my project. He does have limited expereince with soundproofing from a project building luxury soundproofed condo's. He actually gave me a copy of the Acoustic Consultants guidelines for the job. I think you all would be interested to read this since it is a real world case study and uses alot of the principals we discuss here. I will have to figure out a way to scan it and publish it to the site here. Anyway, I digress... So he is onbaord with all the principals I was presenting, and was even suggesting that I would need to be offering some very clear direction and supervision to ensure that things are done properly. Hey, no problem there!!! There were a couple of things that did concern me though: 1) He frames all walls with steel studs. He said that is all they do and have no experience with Carpentry. I explained that for the two "moist" walls I absolutley cannot use steel studs, and am considering using Heavy Plywood instead of Gyp there. I am assuming that it would be okay to use steel studs for all other walls right? He did say that he will try to help me find a carpenter to frame those walls as well as the door jambs; since those may need to be custom made around the salvage doors I picked up. 2) He suggested using a suspended ceiling. This would hang off of the existing joists, and is a similar thing to that you see in commercial spaces / offices etc I think. Kind of a grid thing and you fit the drywall panels into it with insulation on top. He said that it could handle 3 layers of Dryall and was equally confident about my existing joists' ability to handle the extra 6lbs/sf for the ceiling (not to mention the added mass when I do the beef-up layer inbetween the existing joists. What do you guys think? I was originally hoping to frame a new ceiling and sit it on top of the newly framed walls. I am keep to insolate the drums from the upstairs as much as possible. But given my height limitations and the new ducting that will need to be run between the joists, I am starting to wonder if I should be using RC or the clips some of you have used. This weekend I hope to begin removing the ceiling. Still hoping for some pointers on how best to do this without ruining the drywall or electricuting myself. :? Have a good and productive weekend all!

Andy, although i have heard of one guy around here somewhere successfully using a router to cut drywall from the walls, intact, and use it for beef up, i doubt you'd be able to do the same with the ceiling, just because you'd need someone to hold up the loose end as you cut it so that it doesn't break from the gravity (Stupid gravity!!) or maybe you just want large pieces so it is easier to dispose of? not sure about your electrocution problem, i had a few wires in my ceiling but not much. what i did, i used a large crowbar, about 3 feet long, to punch holes in the drywall, and then i used the hook end of the bar to pull down pretty large sections of drywall at a time, sometimes close to full sheets. it actually went pretty fast and i didn't need to stand on a ladder or anything. unfortunately my disposal plan called for putting relatively small pieces in 3 mil "contractor" garbage bags, and hauling the bags to the dump. so even though i ended up with large pieces, i spent some time manually breaking them up into small pieces so i could bag them. of course, if you are really worried about live wires in the space, then you want to turn off the power, or at least don't use a metal crowbar to do the work ... hope that helps, but i guess you'll figure it out pretty quick anyway :)

what would be the point of a suspended ceiling instead of RSIC or RC ... a suspended ceiling for one thing, has no elasticity built in, so the rods or wire that hold it up will transmit the sound as tehy will be a rigid connection (the more weight, the more rigid that connection will be) ... plus it sounds unsafe.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the suspended ceiling deal either... :roll:

Yes I thought it sounded fishy... He says they have used the resiliant channel before; not sure about the clips. I guess once I get the existing ceiling down I can take a closer look at the joists and with your help maybe figure out whether they could support the new ceiling - I'm not convinced it can. Actually I'm fully expecting to find more termite damage up in there! In other news today the Dehumidifier arrived from target.com. The box was really beat up and 3 of the 4 wheels were broken. Called them up and explained I need to start running it right away rather than ship it back and wait 2 weeks for another (previous expereince with homedepot.com) and to my delight they offered my $40 credit so I can get the replacement wheels direct from the manufacturer (or maybe even from lowes / home depot). That's a first for online customer service!!! Your comsumer watchdog... Andy

Here are some pictures of todays progress along with a few questions for you all: You'll see from picture 79 that I have some ductwork that spans the basement between two joists that goes to one of the floor registers in the living room. 1) My first question is how on earth do I get any of my "beef-up" layers above that ducting? Do I have to take it out? 2) Second question - There is vinyl tile on top of the concrete slab. Is there any reason why I need remove it, or can I just build on top of it? 3) From pics 84 and 85 can anyone tell me anything about these joists and whether they should be able to handle 2 beef-u p layers as well as 2 or 3 layers of drywall if I were to use the clips? Joists span 20' and are supported mid way at 14' by an iron joist (pictured in 8 8). Edit: Just realized that I could decipher the labels enough to plug it into the Span Calculater, but am wondering what incised lumber is, What the deflection limit should be, and the difference between live and dead load. Live is with humans in the room above? Also - do I only have to worry about spanning 14' due to the iron joist that the wooden joists sit on midway? Edit #2 10 minutes later: - Just found the answer to most of thisquesions in this thread. 4) Picture 90 illustrates some splits I noticed in some of the ceiling joists - is this okay? I did check for further termite damage in the joists, and though there is some poop along some of them; there does not appear to be any damage in them. 5) Lastly, there is existing electrical wires running through some of the joists (see pic 82) going to outlets and some of the light fixture. Should I be removing them and refiting them through conduit? Hard hat and goggles saved me a few times today. I think my biggest challenge was figuring out how to keep the hard hat from sliding off your head while your looking up at the ceiling 90% of the time - very frustrating! I ended up giving up on hoping to re-use the existing drywall from the ceiling for the beef up layer; and just went at it with the wrecking bar. That's all for tonight... be safe out there! Andy

andy_eade wrote:

1) My first question is how on earth do I get any of my "beef-up" layers above that ducting? Do I have to take it out?

I'd think yes.

2) Second question - There is vinyl tile on top of the concrete slab. Is there any reason why I need remove it, or can I just build on top of it?

Do you know how old the tile is? It might have asbestos in it. This page shows years and manufacturers of asbestos-embedded vinyl tile, including information on how you can get a small sample tested if you're not sure of its age. If it has asbestos, your best (safest) bet is to leave it alone.

3) From pics 84 and 85 can anyone tell me anything about these joists and whether they should be able to handle 2 beef-u p layers as well as 2 or 3 layers of drywall if I were to use the clips? Joists span 20' and are supported mid way at 14' by an iron joist (pictured in 8 8). Edit: Just realized that I could decipher the labels enough to plug it into the Span Calculater, but am wondering what incised lumber is, What the deflection limit should be, and the difference between live and dead load. Live is with humans in the room above? Also - do I only have to worry about spanning 14' due to the iron joist that the wooden joists sit on midway? Edit #2 10 minutes later: - Just found the answer to most of thisquesions in this thread.

I recommend consulting with a structural engineer to be sure. Better safe than sorry.

4) Picture 90 illustrates some splits I noticed in some of the ceiling joists - is this okay?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's OK. The most critical area of joists is along the bottom edge in the middle third of the span. That's where the fibers are under the most strain (pulling apart). If you had vertical cracks that went against the grain, that would worry me more.

I did check for further termite damage in the joists, and though there is some poop along some of them; there does not appear to be any damage in them.

That may or may not be true. Your termite inspector should be able to advise you on that.

5) Lastly, there is existing electrical wires running through some of the joists (see pic 82) going to outlets and some of the light fixture. Should I be removing them and refiting them through conduit?

In residential construction, that type of wiring (trade name Romex) is fine as long as it's not exposed, and it won't be exposed in your case. You shouldn't need conduit for that. Although... That wiring was done by the same ass clown that did that piss poor basement finishing job, right? :roll: If so, I'd be tempted to rip it all out and start fresh, getting everything permitted (as you already intend to do). Those are just my unprofessional opinions. Others: feel free to comment and/or contradict me! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

Hey Andy, I've been following your thread and I feel your pain with the water damage. I ran into the same thing during my demo, insects and all. Turns out what I thought were termites ended up being carpenter ants. Not as destructive they only bore into the wood to live not feed. At least thats what the exterminator said. Also dig around that corner a bit on the outside, turns out my water problems were due to a crack in the foundation where the footer had settled. Talk about a setback! That was last year and I'm just now getting ready to paint all my new drywall. I noticed your in my neck of the woods, one good source for rockwool and acoustical sealant is Capitol Building Supply. They have a location in Vienna and also Manassas. They can order OC 703 too if you need it. Good luck with your build. Keith Oh yeah here's some pics of my headache: