Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

more pics

Aloha Andy, Great to hear about the progress you've made, but I thought it'd be a shame if we couldn't see it too, so I touched up your pics a little. Looking good! :D Hope you don't mind :wink: Aloha 8)

Kendale, you rule -- feel free to touch up my photos anytime! 8) Andy, keep up the great work! :) Here's a great piece on anchor bolts. Use these to secure your new walls! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Aloha Kendale! Thanks for taking the time with my pics. Very much appreciated. It's great to see you're done with the cloud. I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures of it installed. Will you be hanging it with cable? Shar- thanks for the great link on anchor bolts - that hit the spot. Rod's Book shipped and should be here tomorrow. Expect to see a silent thread for a couple of days =) One last question though before I go into hiding... I'm about to begin the "Beef-up" of the ceiling by adding 2 layers of drywall from the underside. I have searched around but can't seem to find the answer to these two questions: 1) Should I be using acoustical caulk to bring the sheetrock flush to the joists? Will gravity make it drip out? Should I be using some other kind of caulk instead? 2) My joists are 20' long but my room is only going to be about 11'. How much drywall should I install? Just enough to cover the room? i.e. Should I beef up with 12' of rock (should be nice and easy with 4x12 sheets) and then add some kind of 2x4 between the joists over the walls? I guess I am wondering how I overcome shound travelling down the joist cavity and entering an untreated area. Anyone who's gone through the "beefing up" process care to lend any more pearls? Do you think I can do this part solo? Or will I need another pair of hands or drywall lift? Many Thanks, Andy

So I seem to have found the answer to my question 1 in Rods new book - Acoustical Caulk it is. However the other questions remain along with some new one's I have. - How should I be attatching the drywall? Rods book shows a picture that looks like you temporarily add nails around the perimeter (without actually going into the drywall), and then once caulking is complete; adding 1x3's around the perimter. I guess you then remove the nails? Does this sound about right? - Sould I be mudding/ taping the seams for this application too? - Question 2 from previous post still stands I calculated that I needed 36 panels for 2 layers. Home Depot had the best price of all the local places, but I also checked with my friends dad (the drywall contractor) and he can have the whole lot delivered slightly cheaper. So it's ordered and on it's way. He also explained that I wouldn't need the lift, just a second person to hold it while I fasten, so I'm good there too. That's all for now, Many Thanks, Andy

Andy, I don't know exactly the situation you have or the picture in Rod's book (stupid Amazon!!) ... but i don't know of any reason why you would not use screws to fasten the drywall. maybe the 1x3 technique is for when you just don't have a thick enough floor above to screw into? which may be your case. but normally, you would just screw in beef up material (around the perimeter only). that's how i did the wall's i've done so far. i haven't had to beef up any ceiling though. even if you use screws it doesn't hurt to use the 1x3's as a backup ... by the way these are what are called "cleats," which you were wondering in another thread. maybe this is just good practice, to use cleats? but screws should be able to hold up the drywall if you have enough material to screw into i would think? other than that the only tip i have is make the pieces around 1/2 inch smaller than the space as measured, so you have an easy time gettng the pieces in and have space on the sides for caulk to go. it's a pain to trim drywall that's cut a little too big. it's easier to caulk a larger gap. oh yeah if you do use screws, get one of those "fixed depth" screwgun attachments, so you don't go through the paper on the drywall. it makes it much easier. my thread has a picture somewhere. and did you see my ode to backing rod? :P it really helps the caulk stay intact and also saves waste of caulk.

Andy, the wall you're talking about - single or double frame? If single, staggered stud or not, RC or not, etc ? Let me know and I'll do a sketch of how you can do it... Steve

Thanks Dan for your pearls =) that definitely helps clarify. Steve - it is beefing up a ceiling. I'm at a similar stage to Rufer (the other thread you posted in earlier); except that he has begun... It is Single leaf. And I will be using RC Clips hopefully. From top to bottom I have: - Lamainate flooring in living room - Subfloor - Planned beef up layer 1 - Planned beef up layer 2 - Fluffy Pink Stuff - RC - 3 layers of 5/8 with the last layer green glued. Hope this helps clarify. Also wanted to check - Should I be taping/ muding the joints in the first layer of beef before adding my second layer of beef? I'm going to go re-read your post to Rufer since that was a great step by step of beef up. Might even be worth adding to the reference for ceilings! I know that was the first place I looked for answers. I guess the only difference for him is he is using mud around the perirmeter of each joist bay, wheras I went out yesterday and bought to cases of OSI SC175 and 1400ft of backer rod. Drywall should be arriving today! Yeay! As soon as there's a stack of drywall in my garage this project is well and truly underway! :D

From top to bottom I have: - Lamainate flooring in living room - Subfloor - Planned beef up layer 1 - Planned beef up layer 2 - Fluffy Pink Stuff - RC - 3 layers of 5/8 with the last layer green glued. In addition to this info, can you edit that post to include your joist size, spacing, and UN-SUPPORTED span? Then I can verify that you're not gonna die after all the trouble you've already gone to :? Thanks... Steve

Steve, You already gave me the thumbs up on the span calcs back on page 10 of my thread (also has the spacing / type / size etc), So I think I should be good. I guess the only peice missing from that calc would be the addition of the 1x3 cleats. I'm assuming these go all the way around? Also can I use screws instead / aswell as cleats? Dan and I were discussing this earlier and I've yet to reach a solid conclusion. Many Thanks, Andy

Thanks for the link, just making sure :D Cleats - I'd push 'em up against the drywall inserts while the mud/caulk is still wet, and SCREW them to the joists - you can use 1-5/8 to 1-3/4" drywall or deck screws, spaced no wider than every 12", and no closer to the end of your cleats than 2 or 3". I would NOT rely on just screws or nails driven below your drywall inserts to hold them well enough; you do NOT want air voids, so the stiffer support of the cleats is much better. The added weight should be around 0.8 PSF using 1x3 cleats on both sides of each joist if the joists are on 16" centers - This - and then add some kind of 2x4 between the joists over the walls? I guess I am wondering how I overcome shound travelling down the joist cavity and entering an untreated area. is what I was asking about - are you asking about the area over the top of the long wall shown in your pix (the one that's perpendicular to your joists) ? If so, that looks like a single frame (it's hard to be sure from the pix) - If that's the wall in question, do you already have a plan for where each layer goes and how you'll interface that wall with your ceiling? Steve

Now's the time to seriously consider using Green Glue on your beef-up strips of drywall... Great performance without a lot of weight.

:oops: Sorry Steve, now I understand why you were talking about walls and I'm thinking ceilings. As far as my question regarding using screws for the beef up. I was really questioning whether I could use the screws as you would for normal drywall installation i.e. up through the drywall into the subfloor. I'm assuming that this is inadvisable for two reasons: 1) comprimising the mass with "holes". 2) Not enough depth for the screw to be drilled into and hold the weight of the drywall. So now for the 2nd question. I will be framing a second wall about 5" in from the existing wall by the staircase. Likewise on the otherside I will be framing a new wall about 1" out from the cinderblock. (I know I know 3 leaf alert... read my earlier posts for my reasoning behind choosing to settle with it.) If you are able to show a picture of how I seal-off the joist cavities to prevent the sound leaking into areas that have not received the "beef" - that would really help! Keith - finally a question for you... I had planned to used GG on the last layer of 3 5/8th layers of the ceiling hung from the clips. Do you think it's worth using it on the beef up layers too? If it's going to make the difference between silencing my late night drumming from the upstairs or not then it's clearly worth the time, money and effort! Also, just as a point of interest; I am only doing the beef up layers for the ceiling above the performance room, vocal booth and sound lock. I am not beefing up above the control room. Mainly because one of the joist bays (the end one nearest the patio door) is full of plumbing and cables that would be an absolute nightmare to deal with. I also figure that 3 layers of 5/8" alone should give me enough isolation for the control room. Does that sound okay to you guys? Thanks for keeping an eye on me! :) Andy p.s. Drywall arrived today and is sitting in the garage looking all pretty. I took a picture especially for you Keith and will post it tommorrow. :D

andy_eade wrote:

I was really questioning whether I could use the screws as you would for normal drywall installation i.e. up through the drywall into the subfloor. I'm assuming that this is inadvisable for two reasons: 1) comprimising the mass with "holes". 2) Not enough depth for the screw to be drilled into and hold the weight of the drywall.

99.5% #2 and 0.5% #1. I would actually advise you do both screws about 1" from the edge of the drywall strips into the subfloor and 1x2 cleats along the joists. The screws in strips through to the subfloor will minimize the air gap (ideally none) between the subfloor, and the cleats will relieve pressure on the screw heads and act as insurance against sagging of the strips and/or failure of the screws. Imagine the screws failing and a piece falling down diagonally, bridging the upper leaf to the lower leaf! :shock: You'd probably figure out that there was a problem but wouldn't be able to pinpoint it... And even if you could, imagine the multi-layer hole you'd have to make in order to fix it. :roll: Again, green glue may be useful to mitigate resonance of the subfloor and the drywall strips, all without adding any significant amount of weight to your beef-up materials.

I had planned to used GG on the last layer of 3 5/8th layers of the ceiling hung from the clips. Do you think it's worth using it on the beef up layers too? If it's going to make the difference between silencing my late night drumming from the upstairs or not then it's clearly worth the time, money and effort!

I would do it just for peace of mind's sake, since you can't do it after the fact. If cost is an issue, then keep in mind that you can get away with less than 100% of the optimal coverage and still get good results. I used about 70% of the optimal coverage so I could stretch the one case I purchased over a larger area. You can go as low as 50%. If I recall correctly, the optimal coverage is two tubes per 4x8 sheet, i.e., one tube per 16 square feet. 50% of that would be one tube per 32 square feet.

I am not beefing up above the control room. Mainly because one of the joist bays (the end one nearest the patio door) is full of plumbing and cables that would be an absolute nightmare to deal with. I also figure that 3 layers of 5/8" alone should give me enough isolation for the control room. Does that sound okay to you guys?

Hmmmmmm... :roll: ...If the gap between upper and lower leaves is contiguous over all rooms (as I would expect it to be), and you have beefed up a portion of the upper leaf, then I would expect noise to travel up from the live room (or vocal booth) through the lower leaf into the gap, then sideways towards the area beneath the unbeefed upper leaf, then up through the inferior upper leaf. :? Remember the "weakest link" theory! A soundproofing job's best performance will be largely based on its worst component. :roll: You know, Andy, aside from the drawing that John put together for your layout, and the photographs you have posted, you haven't posted any actual drawings of the construction details... May I recommend that you do that?

Drywall arrived today and is sitting in the garage looking all pretty. I took a picture especially for you Keith and will post it tommorrow. :D

Cool!! 8) It's funny -- as soon as I read "sitting in the garage looking all pretty," I flashed back to my drywall delivery photos -- and then I read your "picture especially for you Keith" and, well, my heart got all warm and fuzzy! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith. Screws and Cleats is what I was leaning towards so that makes me feel much more comfortable. As for GG. I'm going to give it some thought. Your argument of "you can't add it once it's all completed" alone; is a very compelling one. Finally for the topic that is of most concern right now (particularly as the HVAC guy is currently in the basement adding more complexity into the control room ceiling area - a fresh air intake running in one of the joist cavities); for the beefing up over the performance areas only question - I was thinking I should be able to seal off the two areas so that no sound can travel from one cavity to the next. This is kind of the same question I was asking of Steve about for the ends of each joist bay (at the walls) - can't I install some kind of seal between areas that have beef and areas that don't? I am assuming it will be easier at the end of each joist bay since I am able to make inserts and run perpendicular to the joists, wheras the wall bewteen performance and control room is angled and won't line up with the joists. Still I am thinking there must be a way to seal it using some kind of material (although I'm not sure what) and acoustical caulk. HVAC guy recommends extruded foam board although I don't think he beleived me when I suggested it was probably about as useful as Snake Oil for soundproofing purposes :lol: I would like to post some drawings of what I have in mind, but quite honestly I can't even understand in my head how it works let alone on paper. I'm hoping Steve might come to the rescue here. He mentioned that he might be able to show me diagram of how it should work (at least for the joist bay ends).

Well, yes, you would have to seal it off, but that's only part of the solution. You'd also have to have mass... Remember? :roll: You also run the risk of bridging your leaves together with your seal job -- especially if it has a proper amount of mass -- which compromises your decoupling and, thus, your isolation... Right? :roll: Am I getting through? :) I'm really concerned for you that this issue could be the gremlin in your system that will render most of your efforts (including most of your beef-up) a waste. :shock: Hopefully I'm overreacting... But I don't think so.

Loud and clear... I am definitely ready to do the extra work if it seems necessary. I'm all for cutting unnecessary steps, but not corners that are essential. I will take some pictures of the problem areas in the control room area ceiling joist bays that will make beef up a nightmare and maybe you will have some great suggestions. :D Oh, and thanks for the heads up on Dans "cool" tool. I will be going to HD today to pick up one along with a 29oz "deluxe" caulking gun. I am even thinking about pushing the boat out and getting a black and decker workmate for cutting the 1x3's since I already have a cordless circular saw. Or do you think I'd be better off just getting a table saw? I'm embarassed to say I've never used either. :oops: I have used a wet tile cutter though :twisted: I'm not a complete DIY newbie. Just new to cutting wood with anything other than a jigsaw or reciprocating saw. :? :idea: :x :shock: :cry: :idea: :?: :o :lol: ---> the roller coaster of emotions in the day of a novice studio builder! :lol:

andy_eade wrote:

. . . a black and decker workmate for cutting the 1x3's . . .

If you're talking about cutting 10' strips of 1x3s down to shorter lengths, I just used a hand saw for that. If you're talking about ripping 2x4s down to 1x2s or something like that, then... I'd suggest not trying to do that, and instead just buying the 1x2s or 1x3s at Home Depot or the like.

Andy, is your entire studio (CR and other rooms) going in that one long bay we see in your pix, or will part of it be on the other side of that stud wall frame we see? I'm with Keithers on this one, it'd be nice to see a plan. Or are you still going to do the last one in your design thread? IF you're not planning on separate ceiling joists, you can hang each room's ceiling inside the corresponding walls on RSIC's and brace your walls with the OTHER RSIC's, keeping about 1/2" space between joists and wall frames; this will give you separate ceilings, and with a complete insulation fill I doubt you'll notice much bleed from the live room thru control room and to the upstairs - but I WOULD make sure that the subfloor over the CR is SEALED everywhere at a minimum. I'd actually consider using smaller pieces of gyp if necessary and beefing up ALL your ceiling; as Keithers has mentioned, it's hard to do AFTER everything is sealed up and still not good enough. Now, about that plan; is this the latest, or are you holding out on us??!? :wink:

Yes this is the plan. I cannot do anything further on the right hand side of the wall as you will see from my new pictures as all the HVAC and Hot Water heater are directly behind this. In fact I just took a close look and I'm going to have to remove the existing wall and fram it a little further out. There is not enough space between the studs and the HVAC to get the drywall layers on. see pic 52(Plan was to add layers to the outside of this and then frame a second wall 5 inches in with three more layers.) I also noticed a couple of other potential problems as you will see from the pictures. - The stair case. I have to figure out how to seal this without creating a third leaf. see pic 51. - The first joist bay has been filled with a 2x6. Anyone have any idea why this might be and if it's okay to remove it? see pic 53. - Another stuffed joist bay in the back of the control room (not a problem if I can get away with not doing the beef-up in there. I think this may have something to do with the fireplace above. see pic 46. The one piece of good news from today is that I measured floor to ceiling and I have 93" of clearance. Code calls for 84" which would leave me plenty of room to frame a new ceiling in between the existing joists. That would give me better isolation than using the clips I had originally planned on using, along with giving me a little extra clearance that you will notice from one of the pics (46)I need to get the flex duct in (it's hanging down about 1 inch). My only concern is the areas in the control room that have soffits built around the duct work. They only have 82" of clearance which is already below code before even adding any drywall. Actually come to think of it that makes my desire to frame a new ceiling a little more complicated. Do you think it's worth framing a new ceiling above the performance room but using the clips or RC2 in the control room? Okay, that's enough questions for now. On with the pictures I've been promising. Andy

and here are the remaining pics; including the one for Keith. :D 43 shows the control for regulating fresh air intake. 47 shows the flex duct added today for the fresh air intake. 49 shows the fresh air intake coming into the register. 51 shows the stairs problem including the iron post. 41 is pretty self explanitory :D

Wow, your stack is bigger than my stack was! Show-off!! ;-) As far as third leaf goes -- sometimes you can't avoid it... Or it's less of a problem than you might think. So you plan for it, and maybe increase your mass to compensate. --Keith :mrgreen:

I'm still waiting for pic #53 to see the extra 2x6... Steve

Dang it :oops: It was late on the East coast :) It's on my other computer - I will post it as soon as I get home from work. Keith - you have inspired me. I can add extra mass to the back of the existing exposed part of the stair wall and then continue as planned. Also thanks for your help on where to find the Bakcer Rod tool. Found it last night at HD exactly in the area you suggested. If I had a hat; it would be off to you. 8) On other question that occurs to me: If I were to frame a new ceiling with joists running between my existing joists; would I be okay to skip to joists? You'll see for example (pic 47) that two of the joist bays are filled with duct work- how do I support the ceiling for that area? Or does this force me to use clips or RC2?

andy_eade wrote:

Keith - you have inspired me. I can add extra mass to the back of the existing exposed part of the stair wall and then continue as planned.

Right on. :-) I had initially planned to beef up my laundry room and office walls from the living space sides... But my father-in-law suggested that I do it from the garage side so that I wouldn't have to worry about texturizing and painting it afterwards. That solved the problem of the beef-up layers interfering with the door casings. In your case, access issues pretty much dictate where you add the beef.

Also thanks for your help on where to find the Bakcer Rod tool. Found it last night at HD exactly in the area you suggested. If I had a hat; it would be off to you. 8)

:)

If I were to frame a new ceiling with joists running between my existing joists; would I be okay to skip to joists? You'll see for example (pic 47) that two of the joist bays are filled with duct work- how do I support the ceiling for that area? Or does this force me to use clips or RC2?[/b]

How about you structure the new (lower) joists to stagger between the joists but not be right down the middle of the cavities? Instead, offset them so that they're closer to one existing upper joist. There seems to be room for you to do that. If you must skip a joist, then perhaps you may be able to double up on the joists on either side and to keep the distance between the joists as short as possible. --Keith :mrgreen: