Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

Keith - I completely missed the oppertunity to tease you on your stack envy :lol: Okay so I think your suggestion would work for the area show in pic 47. But I need to get a better picture of the ceiling area to truly show the magnitude of the problem. Pics 44 and 45 don't really show it too well, but there is a mass of ducts and pipes that hang down well below the joists and have soffits built around them. This makes beefing up next to impossible and framing this area (I'm guessing) completely impossible. I am atatching pictures 8 and 9 that may help show you the soffits a bit better. Also here is the elusive picture 53...

Aloha, Just shedding a little light on the "elusive picture 53." :wink: Aloha 8)

Also wondering if anyone has any thoughts on my concern du jour from Sharwards thread:

andy_eade wrote:

Yikes 7 icnhes?? :shock: Since I had my drainage system installed around the perimter of my basement I'm not sure how I'm going to be able to do this. 7 inches would drill right into the pipe. Another one to add to my list of problems :roll:

I am of course refering to the depth one needs to set the wall anchors. If you'll remember the contractor that did the draining / sump system suggested using liquid nails??? to prevent drilling into cement. It's really starting to worry me that I will not be able to build my walls over the tops of the draining pipes and that would lose me about an 1/8th of my space. :shock: Help! :? Here are the pics of the area in question:

Andy, you should talk with your local building department to see what codes require in your jurisdiction. Codes in my area are probably more strict because of California being earthquake prone (although, thankfully, Sacramento is one of the least active parts of the state, seismically speaking).

Yes. I will do if ever they call me back. I have two calls in already and no call back yet. I am wanting to know about Ceiling height for soffits and what constitutes a "habitable" room also.

Andy, are those just wide troughs in the concrete around the perimeter? If so, can you draw a basic sketch showing the elevation? Need to know what their "altitude" is relative to the rest of the floor. Also, pic 53 - can you describe, from the top of the pic to the bottom, what I'm seeing here? That angle doesn't show me what you're talking about unless the gray thing below the joist with the romex stapled to it is also a 2x6 laid flat and up against the subfloor?? In fact, if you pull that pic into Paint, set text to Transparent, choose a color that contrasts with the pic, and label everything you can - then re-post the pic that would be best. Also, on pic 054, WTH is that mess above the stud frame that looks like TWO cripple walls connected with a 2x6, the one with the ends painted blue? Just trying to catch up... Steve

andy_eade wrote:

Yes. I will do if ever they call me back. I have two calls in already and no call back yet. I am wanting to know about Ceiling height for soffits and what constitutes a "habitable" room also.

Forget waiting for callbacks -- you need to just go down there in person. Practice your smile in a mirror and don't go home until you have all the information you need. :)

Yes. I will do if ever they call me back. I have two calls in already and no call back yet. I am wanting to know about Ceiling height for soffits and what constitutes a "habitable" room also.

Hey Andy, I'm lucky with my building code office; they usually call back the same day. Plus Florida Building Code is online, a hard read but my answers can be found there. I tried to look up your building code online with no luck after 5 minutes. I remember you questioning “habitable” room previously; I had that concern at one point for my room. From Florida Building code, which I would presume should be real close to yours:

Habitable Space (Room) is space in a structure for living, sleeping, eating, or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet compartments, closets, halls, storage or utility space, and similar areas, are not considered habitable space.

I presume the above is close to national standard, so Sharward’s previous guess of air conditioned space may be wrong. Some more stuff:

INTERIOR SPACE DIMENSIONS 1208.1 Minimum room widths. Habitable spaces, other than a kitchen, shall not be less than 7 feet (2134 mm) in any plan dimension. Kitchens shall have a clear passageway of not less than 3 feet (914 mm) between counter fronts and appliances or counter fronts and walls. 1208.2 Minimum ceiling heights. Occupiable spaces, habitable spaces and corridors shall have a ceiling height of not less than 7 feet 6 inches (2286 mm). Bathrooms, toilet rooms, kitchens, storage rooms and laundry rooms shall be permitted to have a ceiling height of not less than 7 feet (2134 mm). Exceptions: 1. In one- and two-family dwellings, beams or girders spaced not less than 4 feet (1219 mm) on center and projecting not more than 6 inches (152 mm) below the required ceiling height. 2. If any room in a building has a sloped ceiling, the prescribed ceiling height for the room is required in one-half the area thereof. Any portion of the room measuring less than 5 feet (1524 mm) from the finished floor to the ceiling shall not be included in any computation of the minimum area thereof. For accessibility provisions related to vertical clearance of areas adjoining an accessible route, refer to Section 11-4.4.2 . 3. Mezzanines constructed in accordance with Section 505.1 . 1208.2.1 Furred ceiling. Any room with a furred ceiling shall be required to have the minimum ceiling height in two-thirds of the area thereof, but in no case shall the height of the furred ceiling be less than 7 feet (2134 mm). 1208.3 Room area. Every dwelling unit shall have at least one room that shall have not less than 120 square feet (13.9 m 2 ) of net floor area. Other habitable rooms shall have a net floor area of not less than 70 square feet (6.5 m 2 ). Exception: Every kitchen in a one- and two-family dwelling shall have not less than 50 square feet (4.64 m 2 ) of gross floor area.

Again I can only guess at this but from all of the above… if you label your smaller rooms creatively such as a closet, hallway, utility or other I would think you can get away with under the 70 sqft thing.

I am even thinking about pushing the boat out and getting a black and decker workmate for cutting the 1x3's since I already have a cordless circular saw. Or do you think I'd be better off just getting a table saw?

You are just cutting these 1X3’s for cleats right? I would not use a hand saw (sorry sharward, I love power tools). I wouldn’t bother with a work bench or table saw unless you have other uses for either tool down the road. I’ve been putting off on the work bench till I really need one. I thought needed a table saw, bought it, left in the box and took it back after I finished that project. I’ve got a circular saw, a power miter saw and knee pads. I use 2x4’s or other objects to lift material being cut off the ground. Sometimes I use 2- $10 work horses that were gifted to me, but I prefer the concrete floor. I use splash goggles not safety glasses for accurate cuts when I have to get my eyes real close to see the cut line and blade with circular saw. My miter saw has a laser guide. For long cuts I use a guide of a straight 2x4, piece of plywood or my level and clamp it down to the board so that I can jam the edge of my circular saw against it for a guide… this takes a few measurements to get right. Table saws are one of the most dangerous saws out there. Many people warned me not to bother. You’ll hardly ever see a table saw on a construction site. Maybe I’ll buy one buy the end of my project but if you research them most pros advice against the cheaper ones. A work bench does sound nice though after Steve’s pic demo on TomM’s thread… accurately making those cuts without a bench would be impossible. Hmm... I'm making HD trip today... I guess I’m just trying to say if you are not doing finishing work, or can’t see the usage of the tools in the future then if it were me I wouldn’t buy either. Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

I remember you questioning “habitable” room previously; I had that concern at one point for my room. From Florida Building code, which I would presume should be real close to yours:

Habitable Space (Room) is space in a structure for living, sleeping, eating, or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet compartments, closets, halls, storage or utility space, and similar areas, are not considered habitable space.

I presume the above is close to national standard, so Sharward’s previous guess of air conditioned space may be wrong.

The key there is "living." We don't "live" in closets or bathrooms or hallways -- those are usually places we spent very little time. (Resisting urge to joke about "living in closets." ;-)) In my case I have been told that it's living space, but that there will be stipulation in the occupancy certificate that it is not to be used as sleeping space.

not to be used as sleeping space. Shouldn't be a problem; I've yet to hear anything by Dream Theater that you could play while sleeping... :lol:

Steve, Reference your previous post. I realize now that those pics are very difficult to follow without the benefit of the third dimension. I have added a pic with labels that hopefully will clear that up. Also attatched is my very crude drawing of the drainage system.

Also, on pic 054, WTH is that mess above the stud frame that looks like TWO cripple walls connected with a 2x6, the one with the ends painted blue?

All of that is the reminants of the old basement wall that I removed. The soffit was built to frame drywall around some ductwork and pipes. This will be coming out and replaced with a newly framed wall (aboute 5" out from the other wall you see). The other wall that you see will have to have the drywall added to the room side since the HVAC, iron support poles and Hot Water Heater are all sitting about 1/3 inch away from the framing. Hope this helps clear up a few things. But feel free to ask more questions if not. Thanks as always for your valuable time and experience. Andy Also - Marc thanks for posting that info on the building code for me. I had been doing some research online also using the IRC numbers quoted in my permit and found similar info. I want to make sure that I have a clear answer specific to my locality though and think Shar's advice of going down there is best. I will practice my nice smile and hope that he will be impressed with my dedication to building things right and safe first (and only) time. :)

Can you add dimensions to the items shown in your drainage diagram? Is the "portland cement" just a mortar mix, or is there agregate in it too? What type rocks - large, small, crushed or rounded? Pipe diameter and material - PVC, ABS, ?? Steve

Andy, Your welcome and one more point for you and anybody else following along: Try to show nothing in your plan that looks like a closet for a bedroom or at least be aware of that when talking to code guys. Adding a bedroom can add a set of undetermined additional upgrades to the entire house… in my case my house is a 3 bedroom 2 bath with a septic tank, if I were to add a bedroom then the worst upgrade I would have to make would be replace septic tank system. A closet is the key thing which makes a room a bedroom. Marc

Thanks Marc - that's good to know and I will be sure to be careful. My plan currently shows Booth, and soundlock as the names for the small spaces. I am have made it clear to the town that this is for the purpose of recording and soundproofing just so there we would be no chance or reprecussions. Steve - attached is an updated diagram although I will have to answer some of your questions here too: - It is portland cement with nothing added into the cement. I'm afraid I don't know how thick it is. - There are medium sized (about 1" I think) rocks added around the pipe. - I'm not sure the diameter of the pipe but I remember it looked like the standard sized pipe you see in the hardware stores for drainage that has the perforations around the outside.( edit: I checked some I have in the garage and it is 5" in diameter I think.) I'm not sure but I'm thinking this is PVC, but again it is the standard stuff you see in HD or lowes. I will get a call in to the contractor to try to find out how thick they generally lay the portland and will let you know. Thanks Andy

I would not put a wall directly on top of that pipe, especially if youre going to support the weight of a ceiling on top of the inner walls. Think of how much weight you'd be putting on that thin layer of cement/concrete/whatever directly on top of the pipe! :shock: I think you need to "bite the bullet" per se and plan to drive anchor bolts into the old concrete, preferably far enough into the room so as to not risk cracking along the edge of the old meeting the new. The good news is that you'll end up with a fat air gap that will be excellent for your isolation... And considering that you've got a third leaf going with that concrete block wall, you're probably going to need it. Sorry we didn't catch this sooner... But if we had seen drawings like this earlier, we would have probably talked you into having J bolts set in the new stuff. (See pictures of my J bolts.) I'd hate to see you compromise the big investment you made on that drainage system... :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Still waiting for the shock to pass :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: There... Hmmm, I have to think. This is sad news...

do you think I can get away with it if I shelve the idea of framing a new ceiling and go with the Clips? Also as a bit of fun trivia I just tested the existing isolation of the ceiling to the living room by turning on some metal in the living room and sending my roomie to the basement. As I grdually increased the volume he yelled out at around 54db (courtesy of my new Galaxy Audio DB meter). I plan to continue to do this test at various stages of the project. Okay. now back to panic mode!

sharward wrote:

Wow, your stack is bigger than my stack was! Show-off!! ;-)

I've had about three stacks that big. It looks like my garage a couple years ago! :D I've done the same thing to test my isolation throughout the building process of my studio. Until recently all I could test was from the inside to the outside, but now that I've actually got a door up coming into the studio I can finally test the isolation to the upstairs. Hey, 100 posts. :)

sharward wrote:

I would not put a wall directly on top of that pipe, especially if youre going to support the weight of a ceiling on top of the inner walls. Think of how much weight you'd be putting on that thin layer of cement/concrete/whatever directly on top of the pipe! Shocked

I second that. All that weight would crack the cement and the wall would settle causing your drywall seams to crack, etc, etc, etc... Bite the bullet and set the wall on solid fdn an inch or two from the cut line. You might could do something with a ledge angle attached to the block wall, similar to a brick ledge, and set the wall on top of that so the weight is supported off the wall and not on the thin layer of cement. BTW, are you sure it's straight portland cement. Usually it's mixed with sand at least. Without it, it's very weak and brittle. The sand and aggregrate is what gives it strength - the cement merely binds the aggregrates together. If it is only portland, I would insist the contractor replace it with concrete. You can get a mix with pea gravel for aggregrate. It's small enough to allow a thin layer. Even then you wouldn't be able to set the wall on it though.

I have a call into them and will ask them when they call me back. As it happens I now have another reason to talk to them. Whilst doing laundry tonight I filled my washing machine with what I thought was laundry detergent, only to find that the same contractors that had been working on the system, had chosen to pee into a used laundry detergent bottle. Yes, rather than come upstairs and use the toilet it makes far more sense to pee into said bottle, leave it on site, and of all places to leave it - IN A LAUNDRY ROOM! :evil: What a day! I'm also thinking that I may have just created a fantastic oppertunity for sound to travel from the Performance room to the Control room - via the pipe!!! I just tried the stomp test around the perimiter of the basement (where the trench is) and it resonates considerably more. I think I have succesfully re-created Tom's problem!! That may also give me good reason to frame the new wall further in. I hate to be loosing that much space though! Uggh! Readers beware - this is probably the single biggest mistake I have made yet and I haven't even put hammer to nail! Think very carefully about the possible repurcussions of installing anything else in your space that you intend to use as a studio!

andy_eade wrote:

. . . the same contractors that had been working on the system, had chosen to pee into a used laundry detergent bottle. Yes, rather than come upstairs and use the toilet it makes far more sense to pee into said bottle, leave it on site, and of all places to leave it - IN A LAUNDRY ROOM! :evil:

I knew I didn't like those guys... :evil: That's disgusting. They had no right to do that to you. I'd be tempted to call them up and say, "Hey, one of your workers left behind something very personal. I'd rather not describe it over the phone -- I think it's best that you come and pick it up yourself."

I just tried the stomp test around the perimiter of the basement (where the trench is) and it resonates considerably more. I think I have succesfully re-created Tom's problem!! That may also give me good reason to frame the new wall further in. I hate to be loosing that much space though! Uggh!

Yeah, all the more reason to frame further in. I'm sorry, but I really don't see any other way. :(

sharward wrote:

"Hey, one of your workers left behind something very personal. I'd rather not describe it over the phone -- I think it's best that you come and pick it up yourself."

:lol:

Question for all you beefer uppers out there. When adding the sheetrock between the joists should I be taping the joins before adding green glue and the second layer? Also - did you guys do this work solo or with a second pair of hands? I am assuming that if you work solo one would need to work with pretty small peices. Is this okay or won't smaller peices = more joins = less isolation? Started cutting my first drywall tonight... mmmMM I like that smell!! :) Also - got a call into the pee pee brigade today. Apparantly the Portland is mixed with a light gravel agregate. The layer is about 2 - 2 1/2 inches thick, followed by 3 - 3 1/2 inches or rocks and then the pipe.

When adding the sheetrock between the joists should I be taping the joins before adding green glue and the second layer? Depends on how quick you work; if you're quick and can get the second layer up before caulk hardens, it should work just as well to caulk the first layer's cracks, then push the second layer into the caulk HARD and fasten. If you're doing GG between, it might be better to mud the joints/cracks for the first layer, being careful NOT to put too much mud (taping knife, strike it off smooth) THEN the GG and second layer, nails to hold (like Rod's book shows) and finally cleats and caulk. Also - did you guys do this work solo or with a second pair of hands? I am assuming that if you work solo one would need to work with pretty small peices. Is this okay or won't smaller peices = more joins = less isolation? If you need to work with smaller pieces, I would fill cracks with MUD (more mass) then sand smooth, second layer, etc... - You should still offset joints in this process same as full-wall sheets. Also - got a call into the pee pee brigade today. Apparantly the Portland is mixed with a light gravel agregate. The layer is about 2 - 2 1/2 inches thick, followed by 3 - 3 1/2 inches or rocks and then the pipe. I think you're underestimating what this can support - look at the sketch below; if the trench is filled with river run rock (round, not crushed with sharp edges) then it needs NO COMPACTION; it will self-level, with nowhere else to go, and form something almost like a "keyed arch" similar to old Roman construction. In any case, both sides of the pipe will be VERY solid. Note in the sketch that I've drawn the portland as filling in around the top layer of rock; this is what happens, so ALL the portland, even tho it's not as strong as actual concrete, will be hard enough and strong enough to support a wall. If you use a wider plate for the wall frame, and use sill seal under it as I drew, you will have plenty of support for a 2-layer gyp wall. We're talking about 50 pounds per linear foot of 7 foot tall wall here, spread out over 7.25 inches wide, for a load of around half a pound per square inch... So all ya gotta do is MISS the pipe with a few lag anchors into the portland, and you should be good to go... Steve

Looking at Steve's drawing, I must admit, it does look less daunting... 8)