Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

Thanks Dan - I will give him a try. My concern is with those lower frequencies since I don't want drums getting through into the control room (except through the speakers that is). Will let you know if there is any further development. Andy

Hi Andy, from my rough estimate using Brian Ravnaas' MSM calculator, based on 2 panes of 3mm glass with 13mm airspace, you are looking at around 220hz MAM frequency. this is pretty high. at some point below this frequency (maybe around 100hz?), the two panes should start acting as one pane. so below 100hz, the difference between dual pane and single pane should be non existent for the equivalent mass of glass. also above 300 hz, the iso will be better than if it were one pane of glass. it's only in the neighborhood of 220 hz (+/- about 90hz i think) that having a dual pane would be worse than a single pane. anyway, don't know if that helps or not but it's interesting i guess. dan Edit: some others have reported bad ringing sounds coming from their sliders at frequencies suspiciously close to the expected MAM frequency, apparently using dual pane sliders CAN BE a huge problem

That's interesting. I just learned another new thing and also found a whole new world of posts and advice - yippee! I tried downloading the tool myself to plug in the specifics of the doors that thermastar spec - 2 x 1/8" layers of glass with a 1/2" air space. But I could not figure out how to use the tool for the purpose of glass rather than walls. i.e. there are no studs in a sg door for example. Maybe I just need to spend more time with it. Either way I'm not expecting the exact measurements to buy me much and I suspect your estimations are close (even if they are in metric :wink: ) So here is my follow up question. In the original plan I am using two s/g doors sepreated by a couple of feet of air, so in essence we have this MAM three times over. - Once as we go through the first SG door pane, air gap and second pane. - Next as we go thoough the third SG door pane, air gap and fourth pane. - Finally the booth acts as one giant wall with two leafs of glass for each wall and a large air gap in the middle. Does this buy me anything? Or am I to assume that the Fmam will be the same for each wall and consequnetly the same frequencies that make it through the first S/g door wall will make it through the second? How about if I found two differing doors with different Fmams? Thanks for taking the time to help me with this. I can see from your pic that you have your hands full! :)

No problem Andy. Just remember that I'm really not much of an expert, i probably just know enough to get myself and you in trouble. and you are right, there are no studs between the glass so that would make each leaf lighter, and therefore the MAM frequency would be even higher. using eric desart's calculator which is simpler, gives a MAM frequency of 300hz for 3mm (1/8 in) glass and 12.5mm (1/2 inch) airgap. benefits of the dual leaf begin at 300 x 1.4 = 420hz. mass law take effect i think the same amount in the other direction, 180hz (approximately. not 100% sure here). between these two extremes, the dual pane window will perform worse than mass law (worse than if the two panes were touching with no airgap). so if you did find the single pane slider that had the same mass of glass, it would perform better at 300hz, worse above 420hz, and would make no difference below 180hz. A triple leaf is bad for a couple of reasons. One is it divides your precious airspace, which you want to be as big as possible, into two smaller airspaces. big airspace is just as important as big mass when building a wall. so don't divide it. second while with two leaves you get a mass air mass resonance, with three leaves you either get two MAM resonances that are the same, making the "hole" worse, or you get resonances in two different places, so you have two "holes" where you could have had one. also when to MAM resonances work together they can have suprising bad effects. with me so far? ok, so the difference in proportion between the space in the vocal booth and the space between your gypsum leaves and your glass leaves is so extreme that i have a hard time recognizing this as a three leaf effect. in fact if this were true then nobody would ever be able to build a studio with 3 or 4 rooms because there would always be 3 or more leaves between some rooms. would you get better isolation between your drum room and CR if you used only 1 leaf on those gypsum walls? (leaving the studs open on one side). maybe, it probably depends on the frequency. but your glass doors will probably be the weak link anyway, so actually it probably doesn't matter. i guess the bottom line is, if it were me, i wouldn't worry about having dual pane glass, i don't think it will matter. sometimes you have no choice but to have 4 leaves or whatver. Rod Gervais uses the example of a hotel. you have a room, a hallway and a room across the hall. there you would have to have 4 leaves, there just isn't any way around it. but it is fine, the relative width of the hallway vs. the space in the walls is much different. hope that helps ... or i should say, hope that didn't confuse you more. :D EDIT: i just read this thread which i hadn't seen before ... worth putting in a reference to it in this thread for sure. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4790 not sure what is causing this "ringing" but another reason to be cautious when using sliding glass doors. :?

That really helped alot. Let me ask you one final question and then I will leave you in peace. Do you think I would be better of with my redesign? i.e. use a double, staggered stud wall with Acoustical Solutions Window and double door to sepreate CR from Drum room, and cut a vox booth into the corner of the drum room in a kind-of triangle shape. The benfit to me is: - One less sliding glass door to buy. - I get to use the Acoustical Solutions Window I have sat in my garage. Let me know your thoughts. Your insight has been priceless so far! many thanks, Andy

i've always had doubts about how well sliders will isolate. they are practical in a small studio though. whether your new plan will work better depends on the details, how many layers of gypsum, how the doors are done, whether this window is any good, etc. i certainly wouldn't use a staggered stud wall, i'd use a double stud wall, it's much better and doesn't cost much more in money or space.

Let me go through the options as I see them in as much detail as I can: Option 1) Double Stud Wall stuffed with FG insulation with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on one side, and 3 layers of 1/2" dryall on the other. Green glue sandwiched in between the last layer. Acoustical Solutions window (Still waiting on full specs from A.S, but I think it is 1/4" panels of laminated saftey glass in a steel frame which is about 10" thick; sealed with Neoprene seals - all professional and stuff). Two Solid core doors (such as the one pictured below) mounted in seperate door frames with the following seals. Option 2) Two seperate single stud walls sperated by 7"10 of air at one end, 3"2 at the other end. Each stud wall would house the following sliding glass door, and would be made up of 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on one side, and 3 layers of 1/2" dryall on the other; stuffed with FG insulation. Green glue sandwiched in between the last layer. Option 3) Similar configuration to option 2 above (i.e two slding glass doors housing a booth; except that the walls would only have gyp on one side (3 layers of 5/8" with green glue in last layer) and would be stuffed with mineral wool, and covered with fabric on the inside of the booth. Kind of like one giant extra thick wall. (This was one of Steve's suggestion from a couple of posts back). Interior dimensions would be the same as above. So which of these three options do you think would offer me the best drum isolation between the Drum room and Control Room? Keep in mind that at this point I am not planning on floating the floor in any of the above configuartions, so flanking may be the threshold beyond which I cannot improve upon my potential isolation. Many Thanks, Andy

Dan, Keith, anyone? Hoping to get some feedback on the above from you guys. I have the oppertunity to get my grubby hands on some beautiful Mahogony Solid core doors for $75 a pop from Salvage, and don't know whether to pick up 2 or 4. heck at that price maybe I should pick up all 30 and build the room out of those! =) Thanks chaps! Andy.

Hi Andy, sorry i didn't reply, i wanted to see what others said, thought maybe i'd said enough ... also this is a tricky question, that it is difficult to give a "for sure" answer to. maybe that is why nobody answers. my guess, which could be wrong, is #1 is the best. i think in 2 or 3 that the sliders will be a weak link, and doing a double stud wall with double doors is a more robust approach. between 2 and 3, all things being equal, meaning that the same amount of gypsum is used in both cases (not as you stated it), the one with single leaves on each stud wall would be better. i think this is pretty open-and-shut, since you will have the same total mass but avoid the quad-leaf effects of the stud walls covered on both sides with drywall. your option 2 and 3 do not have equal mass as you stated them. #2 has 5 layrs of drywall total and #3 has only 3 layers. so it's not a fair comparison really. you have the resonance effect in #2 but more drywall, so maybe that cancels out the resonance effect somewhat ... but it is impossible to know this without actually testing it. applying theory works best when choosing between 2 options where only 1 thing changes between them.

Sorry for my lack of response ('til now). I've had to budget my contributions on the forum lately due to a variety of things, though I have tried to at least skim everything each day. This one must've slipped by me. In short, "Ditto what Dan said." ;-) I can't possibly write anything that would seem even remotely more intelligent than what he wrote already. I concur!! :) Those salvaged doors -- should be interesting. Solid, eh? Seems promising. --Keith :mrgreen:

That "option" you mentioned me mentioning :? would ONLY give you better iso between the drum room and CR; another advantage would be that you could use the stud frames to hold absorption for the voice booth, which usually needs to be fairly dead (you could always add slats over the cloth in a few places if it's TOO dead) - However, if you ALSO want good enough ISO for a screaming vocalist NOT to be heard thru the walls, but only in the monitors, then I'd bite the bullet and doo m-a-m walls/doors EACH SIDE of the vox booth - this WILL cost you a small amount of iso between CR and DR, but probably not more than a couple of dB. The GAIN in iso between the VB and CR may well be worth it to you. To me, there are only two reasons for using sliding glass doors in a studio - sight lines and NOT eating up floor space for the SWING. If ISO is your main worry, stay away from sliders; the BEST seals are marginal, and TWO each wall is EXPENSIVE. (Or REALLY crappy :roll: ) That said, a lot of people get really claustrophobic in small rooms with no windows - have I mentioned the old cliche', damned if you do damned if you don't lately??!? If there's room, yet another option is to just use doors as doors; IOW, get heavy glass for both leaves of both walls of the Vox booth, and locate the doors OUT of sight lines. This would have the advantage of good sight lines, as well as making seals easier to accomplish (hermetic seals on the glass, little if any loss of iso because of the glass, and cheaper doors (the solid mahogany ones for example, with drop seal kits) Only downside I'd consider with THAT scenario is finding "swing" room for the solid doors, and keeping them out of sight lines while NOT screwing up traffic patterns... Steve

Damn, just checked your older thread in the Design forum (don't often get time for that), and it looks like great minds really DO run on the same track... :? http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4552 IF you go that way, you'd want a pretty wide air/insulation gap and heavy glass in the wall between CR and DR, but that's the idea I had in mind when I wrote the previous post... Steve

Do you think my Acoustical Solutions window, that I have sat in the garage, will suffice?

That link is kinda generic, did you already spec this out earlier in the thread? Don't have time to check 'em all, will try to get back later today... Steve Rule of thumb; glass should be at least 1/3 the thickness of ALL layers of gypsum for EACH LEAF of a wall (1.5" gypsum one side, 0.5" glass that side. Ditto other side, but preferably DIFFERENT numbers -

I don't have the specs on it. They took down that page unfortunatley sinc ethey now only build them custom. I will measure it and spec it for you when I get home. It is thick and heavy but I suspect it is not quite as you mention. Maybe this window will be better suited for the booth, and I will create something custom for CR / DR walls...

So here is the update. I sealed off the basement on Friday and covered up all the a/c vents (pic 1) and then began removing the molding and Fake Oak Panelling (which will hereafter be called Foak Panelling). My goal was to take a look at the area that I was concerned may have suffered water damage and see if there was indeed mold growing. As you will remember I had noticed discoloration of both the carpet and the Foak panelling in this one corner. As you can see from the pictures attached it is worse than I had thought. - there does appear to be evidence of previous water damage. Although interestingly enough yesterday we had bad rain all day, and I inspected throroughly for signs of fresh moisture and there were none. Weird right? I was expecting to see at least a little collected in the corner. - The bad news however, appears to my untrained eye that maybe I have, or have had in the past; a significant termite (or other wood eating pest) probelm. This maybe in addtion to the moisture problem, or maybe I don't know what the heck I am looking at and it is only one or the other. Maybe one of you knows. All I know is - the wood is rotted out and what is left of the 2x4's crumble with the sligtest of pressure from finger or screwdriver. There is one other spot besides this corner I found which was up high near the ceiling joists about 2 - 3ft over to the right. This appears to just be termite damage. I wish the home inspector had found signs of this 2 years ago when I bought the place! So now I'm thinking that obviously this wood needs replacing, but thinking also that I am concerned as to if there are deeper problems that may be affecting structural integrity. Who would be best to get in to look at this? Some kind of inspecter or builder. I'm also assuming I should get someone like Terminix in to inspect and advise. Come to think of it my basement floor does look kind of like a bug graveyard all the time. :(

more pics...

last picture to show the make up of the exising basement construction: Hollow Concrete Block, Moisture Barrier, Unfaced Insulation...

oh and one last thing. I am going to change the name of this thread from "Multiple questions for the forum", to "Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread". I think it is more fitting and descriptive, and now that I am over 5 pages I think it is officially a thread :D

Holy crap. That looks bad. Get a reputable termite inspector in there right away. They should be able to advise you on the necessary steps. Note that home inspectors aren't liable for latent defects or damage -- they're only responsible for what they can see, or should see. It comes down to whether or not this was completely hidden from view and not detectible prior to exposing the area. You are very right to be concerned about structural integrity, especially since there's evidence of the termite damage at the ceiling. Not good. :( You can see why I've gotten a bit justifiably paranoid in my own project and why I've gone to great lengths to ensure against that happening to me. Please keep us posted. Look on the bright side -- perhaps the money you will save in further damage repairs by discovering this now will pay for the studio itself! --Keith :mrgreen: P.S.: Excellent job renaming the thread! 8)

Thanks Keith. I shall start looking for good local termite inspectors in the morning. As a matter of interest. I was away on business travel at the time of the inpsection, and it was performed with my realtor on my behalf. I do remember noticing a few months after that there was some discoloration to the oak panelling in that corner even back then. Wish I had though to say something then. It has now been a year and 10 months and a little late to go back to them complaining I fear. The Good news is that I just won $125 on the superbowl tonight - that should help! :D

If your untrained eye could see discoloration, then it is possible that you noticed something that the termite inspector should have noticed but didn't. Ask the new termite inspector to give you a detailed written report, including the condition of the paneling, estimates of the age of infestation, whether or not it's likely to have been visible evidence of infestation at the time of sale, etc. This report may become "Exhibit A" in litigation. You may have a case against:

• The previous owner of the house, if they knew or should have known of the damage prior to close of escrow and did not inform you ("failure to disclose") or expressly lied to you about its condition ("wilful misrepresentation"); and/or
• The termite inspector and/or home inspector who inspected the home prior to close of escrow if they were negligent in detecting visible* damage at the time of the inspection; and/or
• Your real estate agent if they became aware of the problem and failed to inform you.

Those are some big "ifs" and, even if one or more of them is true, you have burden of proof. That's why it's important to document everything, just in case a need arises to bring action at a later date... But not too late, as there is a statute of limitations that you may be very close to reaching (often it's one year, so it would be wise to find out for sure). You probably already know that homeowners' insurance does not cover wood destroying pest infestations or slow leaks. I'm crossing my fingers that the damage is localized and relatively easy to repair. *Note that "visible" means visible even if there are movable things in the way. If the basement were full of the previous owner's belongings at the time of the inspection, the inspector has a duty to move or ask the owner to move items out of the way to gain necessary access to all areas to facilitate a complete inspection

Sorry to see that damage Andy, truly a bummer :x Certainly this is a matter for professionals. But hopefully it's just a matter of jacking up the first floor a bit, pulling out the rot and putting fresh wood in. It's going to cost a bit of money i'm sure. too bad this wasn't found in the inspection (i don't think inspectors are really expected to tear off wood paneling in the process :P ) ... and believe me i'm sure the inspector's contract you signed leaves him well protected. but still too bad, since it could have been paid for by the owner or at the very least rolled into your mortgage, which is a lot easier way to pay for it. i had to replace both of my bathroom floors in my last house before i sold it. it was a lot cheaper than i expected ... i wish you the same pleasant surprise :) D

So here is the update; alot has happened in the last couple of days. Yesterday I ordered 5 solid core doors from a salvage place in Maryland. They are a little tall for my needs, but the guy I have been dealing with there says alot of people have bought them and trimmed them down. They had a Buy it Now price of $100 a peice, and knowing that he had 30 of them and had explained that noone had bought any yet I thought I would make an offer of $50 each and go up from there. To my delight they accepted. So in all, with hardware and delivery, I will have all 5 doors for about $420. Hopefully they'll do the trick with some nice seals added. hey sure look purdy! Here is the link if anyone else is interested in some "on the cheap" Mahogony Veneered sold core doors. So back to the developing rot / termite issue. I pulled off more of the "Foak" panels on Monday night to see if I would reveal anymore termite or rot-damaged 2x4's, and to my delight there were no more. Seems to be localized to just one corner for the rot and one other spot for the termite damage. Of course this is just from my visual inspection. I am trying to get a termite inspector in to determine if the damage is old and if there is anymore that may be out of sight. I did have two appointments today though that got me a litte closer. The first was from the HVAC guy. I went through my project requirements with him and he is off to write up an estimate for me. I will post more on this discussion when he comes back with the quote. The second appointment was with a Basement moisture specialist. Here is where it gets scary. The guy took a look around. He confirmed that the one spot was termite damage as I had suspected, and said that they are atracted by the moist wood and will only attack moist wood and can "smell it" a mile off. He explained that houses with these hollow block basements start getting these problems around the 25 year mark. When the construction is new, he said that they paint this special waterproofing membrane onto the block on the outside, but that after 25 years or so it starts to fail in some places. When this happens the blocks begin to fill up with water, and if it has no way out it stagnates and mold can start to grow. His recommendation (costing $6626) is as follows: - Drill holes into each of the blocks at the base of the wall to allow them to drain, chemically treat them for mold and acid. - Install a sump pit, pump and allow wall to drain into this. - Refinish basement floor with portland II mix. So, as you can imagine I now want to get a couple of others out too for comarison. This sounds a lot more involved than what I had in mind. What he was saying made sense with the information I had read tha tyou guys had directed me too, but still this seems to be very involved for something that (at least at this point) seems quite localized. I do however understand his point, that if the blocks are full up with water, it is only a question of time before the acid in the water from the soil (soil in the DC area is very acidic) completely destroys the blocks and the wall will start to bow or worse still collapse. Ironically the chap that came out earlier to talk about HVAC lives just up the street and lives in a similar design house and had the exact same problem in his basement, only much worse / advanced. He said that a whole wall of 2x4's was rotted in his. He stripped it out and replaced it with steel studs without solving the moisture problem it would seem so I worry how long his drywall will last! To find out whether what the moisture guy is telling me is true, I wonder whether I should try drilling a hole in the closest block myself to see if water comes shooting out, and just be ready with the shopvac and a mop. What do you guys think? I found this company from the local newspaper whereas I have had much more success with the HVAC and other contractors using the servicemagic.com service which I can highly recommend. It's a great way to find contractors in your area that are prescreened and you can even read other customers reviews of their work. I am hoping to get a couple more people in to give me an estimate and I will be interested to see if their stories all match up as well as their $6600 solutions - hopefully not!!! That's all for now. Oh wait, one last bit. Both guys agreed that having been in the house 2 years now I have no chance of any recourse with the Home / termite Inspectors or previous owners etc. As the late John Candy once said "We'd have a better chance playing pick-up sticks with our butt cheeks". Ahhhh.... John Hughes Movies - happy thoughts.... :)

andy_eade wrote:

. . . other contractors using the servicemagic.com service which I can highly recommend. It's a great way to find contractors in your area that are prescreened and you can even read other customers reviews of their work. . .

I have not had great luck with ServiceMagic. My first experience was about three years ago when I had a water service line break (the pipe between the municipal shut off valve and the main valve entering the house). One of the contractors was Drain Patrol, which a basic Google search turned up this CBS Evening News expose of this rip-off outfit that was eventually sued by the San Joaquin County consumer fraud unit of the State Contractors License Board. Years later, when I was working on my studio design, I found a structural engineer (kind of) through ServiceMaster, and although we had one semi-productive phone call, he refused to return my calls after that... :roll: ...so, in a nutshell, I've not been impressed!

Both guys agreed that having been in the house 2 years now I have no chance of any recourse with the Home / termite Inspectors or previous owners etc.

I didn't realize you had been in the house that long... I thought it was less than a year. But even so -- if it appears the problem was covered up by the previous owner, you might still have a case after all... The statute of limitations fclock starts ticking at the point that you discover the problem. In short, just document everything really well in case you end up having to pursue the matter. There's always small claims court.