Dan F's One-Room Garage Studio

I just looked at the pics of the joist hangers you installed. Be advised you must fill all the nail holes for the hanger to support the full design load. It appeared several of the holes were empty although I could be mistaken. As a structural designer, let me say you must be very careful about hanging additional loads from trusses, or any beam for that matter. Also, load bearing walls are placed on concrete beams integrated into the slab - not on a 4" slab only. I'd be happy to give you some direction if you will post drawings and pics of the existing construction and your proposed additions. :D Oh - one more thing concerning your load calcs: If your members will support 1000 lbs and you put 900 lbs on them, you're asking for trouble. Those joist tables mentioned earlier probably have a safety factor included. I don't know what code is in a siesmic zone (although I'm sure sharward does :lol: ), but it can be as high as 2.5, meaning your beams would have to be rated to hold 2500 lbs. Check into it... :idea:

Cool, Don, you are right i did not do all of the nailing yet in that picture, but i definitely will be filling all the holes with nails, and the proper 16d common as well. On the slab, i think what i should have done if i were to do this right is cut the slab out, dig down and repour a deeper footing to go under this wall. i understand that. i have been worried a bit that the slab may crack under the extra weight, but i've decided the extra weight is reasonable and am rolling the dice a bit here. it should be a maximum of about 100 pounds/linear foot on the slab, i beleive this will be ok. the ceiling members are way overbuilt for the load i believe ... nine 2x8x12'10" should hold up 5000 pounds, my ceiling structure will only be 2000 pounds. i'm not cuttting it at all close here i don't think. i've done a fairly good job of outlining my plan here, of course i don't expect you to read the whole thing. maybe i can do a post where i sum up the important load-bearing issues. i'll try to get that done asap. thanks for the help, it is most appreciated! Dan

Let me explain more about this truss situation. This is a "howe" truss, about 18.5 feet long, spanning the garage side to side, around the middle of the garage. On the original house construction, nailed directly to this truss is a 2x10, nailed into the top portion of the bottom chord and the webs. the bottom chord is a 2x8 and the 2x10 is offset above the chord, so it only overlaps the bottom chord by about an inch. the ends of a series of trusses, and normal ceiling joists & rafters bear down on this 2x10, perpendicular to the main truss we are talking about. that is why the truss is there, to support these other ceiling and roof members that run perpendicular. one reason i'm planning to involve this truss assembly in my construction is to take advantage of a seam in the concrete slab that runs parallel to and under the truss. in order to bulid my inner and outer leaves so that they straddle this natural break in the slab. now, maybe this is not worth doing if it causes too much complexity and risk. the other reason is that it spreads the weigth better to put some weight on one slab setion and some on the other. i could just build my outer leaf a few inches over, making my room a little smaller. disadvantage: a lot more weight on one section of slab, which might crack it. my logic was that if my new ceiling ties in to the 2x10/truss assmebly, and there is a new wall directly under it, then there is no problem, if the structure is overloaded (we are only talking about at most 1000 pounds) there is a wall there to prevent the structure from sagging or being overstressed. i don't really expect any "thumbs up" on my plan based on this description, but i thought it would be good to try and give a clearer picture of what i'm doing. here's a picture of the truss before i completely cleared away the drywall

I looked at all the pages in this thread so I'm a little more familiar with your project. In the attached pic, the dbl 2x4 "beam" is called a stiffback (here anyway) and is used to laterally brace the joists at the center of their span thereby increasing their load capacity, their unbraced length. The truss functions as a girder, a beam that carries the load of several other beams and transfers it to the fdn. The vertical 2x4 serves no purpose and was probably a construction brace that was never removed, perhaps to hold the ridge beam in place until it was secured. I don't know what the plywood plates on the joists are for. Here is a PDF that explains the bracing of trusses, but it somewhat applies to the framing in your roof. http://www.alpeng.com/wood_truss_info.html? I'm still looking at the first few pages but I have to ask - are you sure about how much weight you're planning to put on the 2x6 ceiling joists? I saw one post that appeared to show 3-6 layers of drywall suspended from them.

steve wrote:

...a nail gun drives the nail REALLY FAST compared to using a hammer, so the inertia of the piece being nailed in place PREVENTS the piece from being pulled up snug against what you're nailing it TO - so framing/siding fastened with a nail gun is not going to be as strong or squeak-free as if done with a hammer in most cases.

With all due respect to Steve, having used both for years and years, I've found just the opposite is true. As long as you hold the gun up against what you're nailing the inertia ensures a tight joint. Add that to the fact that gun nails are coated with a heat activated adhesive makes for a strong connection. When hammering by hand, unless the workpieces are backed up by something solid, they move and slide while nailing. By contrast, with a nail gun one lines up the pieces and BAM! - it's there. Also, with a hammer, as you bang on the next joint, and the next, and so on, the already nailed pieces move and wiggle and loosen. By the way, my framing hammer is 28 oz, my trim hammer is 20 oz. :shock: :lol: As for the attached pic, since all your studio is on one side of the girder truss, you could add a beam down the middle - splitting your joists in half - and putting a post hidden in the wall. That way your joists don't have to span across the entire width of the garage. Just a thought.

Sandersd, Wow you are a wealth of knowledge 8) 8) I don't take offence to anyone pointing out were I'm wrong and in regards to what to use to anchor walls I previously wrote in this thread.

I started writing about do and don’ts of tapcon... even though I think the winner may be anchor bolts hear is my 2 cents for everyone’s reading.

Dan, Hope I didn't influence you to much down the wrong path, just felt a need to share something I have experience with as I have taken so much knowledge from this thread and the entire forum. Marc

This thread is so freakin' awesome! 8)

Marc, no worries, if i decide to go another route i'm only out $14, and i'm sure i can use those tapcon somewhere else anyway (if i can remember where i put them when the time comes :D ) regardless i still feel not using the powder actuated is the right decision, and i still need the hammer drill for whatever i end up doing. Don, again many thanks for your attention to my thread. :) I'm using a 19oz hammer and it sure did give me a workout this weekend, especially hammering in the 'up' direction. maybe i'll be able to upgrade to the 23oz ... someday :D ok, back to the plan. what you propose as far as putting a beam down the middle, is sort of similar to what i'm actually doing. i'm running nine 2x8s perpendicular to the 2x6's you see in the pictures, ABOVE the 2x6s on 16' centers. the gypsum will be attached to the bottom of the new 2x8's, between the 2x6s not attached to the 2x6s. i should be able to do 3 layers of 1/2 inch gypsum on the 2x8's (12' 10" span) without being close to the load limit. rather than a post buried in the new wall, the new wall as a whole will support any excess load on the girder. preventing it from deflecting further. the 2x6's in fact are worse than they look ... only every other one of them is a solid length. the in between ones are spliced in the middle, i think that is the plywood you are referring to. without the stiffback, who knows if these spliced members would even stay up :shock: i think the main function of these 2x6s must be to keep the walls from spreading apart due to the roof load. i was planning to use simpson ties to strap the old 2x6's to the new 2x8's, just to make the whole thing more solid ... mostly so that the seams between the new drywall and the old 2x6's will stay stable. again the new drywall will not be attached to the old joists, unless you consider caulk an attachment. HOWEVER, even if you count the weight of those 2x6's i'm still not near the load limit of the 2x8's. thanks for that link on trusses. i will have to buckle down and read those.

sharward wrote:

This thread is so freakin' awesome! 8)

ok, i don't feel you're neglecting me anymore :lol:

i'm running nine 2x8s perpendicular to the 2x6's you see in the pictures, ABOVE the 2x6s on 16' centers

The girder is where the step down occurs, right? So the member labeled 4x16(?) Header Beam is a new member spanning from wall to wall? Is the above referenced beam adjacent to the existing girder truss? Connected to it? I see the roof is a composite constriction, i.e. asphalt and fiberglass shingles on plywood. Was the original roof cedar shingles? If so, the roof is designed for a very light load, but now has a heavy load on it. You want to add 6 layers of drywall @ 2.2lbs/sf per layer, 2x8 joists, 2x4 runners, what else? I have a couple of ideas, but I want to run them by a structural engineer at work before I make the suggestions. I'll let you know tomorrow.

Hi Dan, Just wanted to lend you some moral support... I noticed earlier that you felt silly for getting your insulation already. It should make you feel better to know that you at least have begun construction... I have just begun the demolition stage and am still planning HVAC and electrical... heck I still have potential moisture and Termite issues; and just bought 5 doors last week :D What can you do... a good deal is a good deal... Plus it feels good to commit! :D (I think) :shock:

Dan, I just spoke with a structural engineer here about your plans and he basically said you're nuts :shock: . You really shouldn't put any additional loads on those 2x6's, the existing header over the garage, or the truss girder. You can beef up the door header by adding another 2x12 alongside of the existing and attaching them all together. Then you could transfer additional loads to it. All other loads should go to the fdn thru the walls. You could sister a 2x8 or 2x10 with the existing 2x6's, but you really need to come up with a clear drawing with acurate dimensions or sketchup file to analyze the members. :) Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

most houses are built with spf ( spruce pine fur ). And for ceiling joists to hang 2 or more sheets of drywall you need 2x12's and depending on how much weight your going to put up on the ceiling joists you would either go 16"o.c. or 12" o.c. _________________ Doni Bieler Residential Construction Builder Live to make a Beat another Day

This guy could probably give some direction: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=100591 From this thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2887&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Don, Wow! I appreciate you going to the trouble of running this by an engineer ... your interest and concern about my project is beyond the call of duty, and i thank you. That sketch you are referring to, that indicates "4x16(?) header" .... i feel stupid now, and have to apologize to you for not changing that sketch when i discovered it was incorrect. What i thought at the time of that sketch was a solid 4x header turned out to be the truss/2x10 girder thing. Also, as i menitoned earlier i don't plan to add any loads to the 2x6s ... i'm adding 2x8s perpendicular to the 2x6, above them, which will be fully supprted by new walls. the current ceiling plan is 3 layers of 1/2 inch gypsum, not 6. sorry for that confusion as well. did i once plan 6 layers? :oops: the garage door header will not be supporting any of the ceiling mass, there will be a new wall built in front of the garage door that supports the ceiling, totally. although i did attach the first 2x8 joist to the garage door cripples, i don't plan to do that now, i realize that was a bad plan. the girder will be supporting additional mass, about 1000 pounds, but the new wall under the girder should be able to offset or counter the additional load with no problem. the only worry will be whether the slab can handle the extra weight. in fairness to you, if you are going to offer help i owe it to you (and everyone else :) ) to do some new sketches which are more up to date. this thread certainly has not done the job of giving a clear picture, and i apologize for that. i'll also go make some edits on earlier posts to reflect what turned out to be incorrect. Dan

No sweat, I'm just trying to participate and help out in areas where I can. A more detailed sketch would probably clarify things, but don't feel compelled to do one just for me. But if you have any questions, I'm here to help. :D

there should be more people in the world like you Don!

Don, I 2nd what andy said:

there should be more people in the world like you Don!

AND in more praise of Don's participation be sure to check out his thread in Design Forum: Songwriter's studio - 12'x12' mix room, other recording room Great design plans and a nice guy too :D Dan, you lost me on

(pad pad pad :) )

on your post in my thread? Marc

sorry :) knightfly was joking on sharward padding his post count, and said, you'll never catch "da fly" ... i actually did laugh out loud so i threw up a :lol: , and then i was joking that i did that just to pad my post count. sorry to litter your thread with silly posts! :)

Ahh that's what I figured, The most stupid question is the one not asked. And in reference to above about Design forum... it sure can be a lonely place. I've almost got the mojo required to crawl through my attic space once again... here I go :cry: Marc

knightfly was joking I NEVER joke; levity is hereby banished, and floggings will continue until morale improves... :twisted:

ok a couple more pix of some stuff i did yesterday. i did the second part of the wall. i left a pretty large space for the 36 inch door and associated framing, only to realize that the only doors into my garage now are less than 32 inches wide. so that extra wide door will be really useful. :oops: i guess maybe i'll change it to a 32 inch door, no sense in having the extra 4 inches of swing clearance to deal with, and the extra weight of it etc. i tapped some shims in between the new walls and the girder, so that if the girder does flex with more load on it then the load will transfer down the wall into the floor. when i bang on my new frames, the whole garage rattles all around, so it feels like part of the structure now. i haven't finished bolting the soles or nailing the top plates in. i've got them tacked in there pretty good though. now i'm going to move on to working on the rolltop garage door situation. once i tackle the framing around the rolltop door i'll have all the pieces in place to complete my outer leaf (except for the 32 inch door). i guess what i'm trying to do is get all the complicated stuff out of the way. then when i've got that done i can go about the relatively mindless tasks of nailing everything and drilling bolt holes etc. and then i can get my dad up here to help me hang some sheetrock :twisted: i'm especially interested in any feedback on how i shimmed between the wall and the girder, i couldn't figure out any other way to do it, and it seems logical. the shims are right above each stud. i may throw some in between each stud as well, although it probably wont do anything. or maybe it will. it can't hurt anyway. it might be a good idea NOT to put the shims right above the studs, but between the studs, so there is some flex built in to the system. any comments on this? if i was going to do this i should have built the wall with a double top plate i guess ... :x ... i know, it's supposed to have a double top plate but i was (stupidly) thinking that the 2x4 nailed to the bottom of the girder was the second member of the double plate, but of course that's wrong isn't it.

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

. . . i left a pretty large space for the 36 inch door and associated framing, only to realize that the only doors into my garage now are less than 32 inches wide. so that extra wide door will be really useful. :oops: i guess maybe i'll change it to a 32 inch door, no sense in having the extra 4 inches of swing clearance to deal with, and the extra weight of it etc.

OMG that's hilarious! :lol:

i tapped some shims in between the new walls and the girder . . .

Is there a reason you ended up with such a wide gap between the top plate and the beam? It's not as though you had to make it shorter to clear the ceiling while tipping the wall into position... :roll: I'm considering building my outer leaf walls in place when the time comes so that I don't have to shim them.

Hey Dan, 1. Would love to see a sketch of your over all design and or M-A-M detail with STC adn LF TL goal. 2. Thanks for sparking that thread in studio tips "an isolated slab island instead of floating?" which took me hours to get through. 3. I'm realizing my design and some obstacles are closer to yours than I thought previously... I got a small portion of uneven stucco wall to beef up. Now to hopefully not talk out of my a$$, but can't help ask or more like wonder: 4. Should the space between top plate and 2nd top plate or truss be only 1/4" to allow movement of truss without creating uplift? Nails go through from top plates to truss with ¼” space left. Looks like you got some level issues there. Should not upper top plate be put in place 1st like I think you did, then… 5. Should not walls be typically built complete on floor (minus one top plate) and then raised into position, complete with door frame and entire length of wall? Door portion of sole plate is cut out with hand saw once wall is up, in order to keep it all straight for pre-hung door or slab door? I'm not getting how your going to get your door frame in there, with trimmer studs attached to sole plates & superior header detailed in previous wall diagram. Guess your making the wall in 3 parts? Then again, maybe the angle of the shot is fooling me. I'm looking forward to the door. :twisted: Just completely curious with last 4 and 5 questions, and can’t resist typing. :twisted: Marc

Is that frame wall INTENDED to support load, or is that a truss that should NOT get supported? Need to know before you get any further... Steve

I think it's the original garage door header before the garage was extended... So I don't think it will be supporting load. You may recall that Dan's garage was extended by about 10 feet, but then the garage lost about the same number of feet from the back (the living quarters were extended into the original garage). At least that's the best he can surmise, since that all happened before his family took possession of the house.