Dan F's One-Room Garage Studio

Well it's about time i started my own thread. I've been hesitant because it seems like i change my plan every day ... but i NEED to SHARE :lol: it's been about 2 months since i bashed a hole in my garage ceiling to see what's up there. what the construction is, you know. Edit: where it says solid wood header in the pic below is not right, this is a 2x10, which in turn is nailed to a truss. Edit: I'm terribly sorry, but I've gone and accidentally deleted the pictures for some of these posts from the personal server they were on. Fortunately most of the pictures I posted were on the forum server, so it's not a total loss. I think that most of the affected pages are within the first 5 or 6 pages of this thread. At the moment it doesn't seem that I have these pictures backed up anywhere. Sorry! as you can see, the garage is a mess. hey, i've been busy remodeling my kids' bedroom for the last SIX MONTHS :evil: :evil: :evil: Pic deleted but i just finished this weekend :D :D :D :D :D so i'm ready to start clearing out space for the studio. maybe you can see from the photos of the garage, it looks like the garage was added onto at some point ... the garage was pushed forward to make room for a family room behind. the original garage door header is still there, cutting the garage in two. in the old section of the garage, the ceiling is about 9.5 feet. in the new section, the height is 8' 1" as drywalled. i'm now planning to just use the new section for the studio. the old section will remain laundry, refrigerator, storage. the good news is that the new garage section is on separate slabs from the old section. if i build my outer leaf on the old slabs an my inner leaf on the new slabs (there are 4 sections of slab total, two in new area and two in old area), then i will get great isolation between the two slabs. i did a hammer test this weekend to test this theory. i can clearly hear the hammer tapping when my ear is on the same slab i'm tapping, but if i move a couple inches so my ear is on the other slab, i hear nothing through the slab. anyway, i looked up there through the hole i made and here is what i saw. you can clearly see a piece of vertical plywood, a horizontal beam and some joist reinforcement has been added. dimensions of all this stuff will be given in the diagram posted below. Pic deleted this picture shows plywood reinforcement applied to the joists in the center. this is only on every other joist, just like the collar ties. joists are 2x6 24" OC Edit: only every other one of these "joists" is a continuous member, the others are two members spliced in the middle. Pic deleted this shows how a new beam (two 2x4's) is placed above the joists and tied to them wiht metal clips Pic deleted this shows where the new "beam" ties into the old header. notice only one half of the "beam" actually is hanging on the plywood cleat. Pic deleted this shows a diagonal going from the ridge beam to the front wall of the garage ... also an odd 2x4 is placed kind of randomly for support on the right side of the photo Pic deleted more in a bit

ok, let's back up a bit. here's something i wrote out a while back, that outlines my goals ... I'm planning a practice/recording/mixing room in my garage in my single-story older 1960's house. What I'm after is a reasonably isolated room where I can practice and track drums as well as amplified guitar and be able to sing (scream?) without bothering my family or my neighbors. Yes i'd love to do it at 3am but i realize that may not be possible! budget ... let's say $3000 for major stuff, wood, gypsum, caulk, door system, insulation nickel & dime stuff may add up to more :P i'll be using the space mostly between 9pm and midnight or 1 am on a few nights a week, and sometimes during the day on weekends. if i have to save my loudest moments for the weekend then i can do that. My neighbors are close to me on a quiet suburban street, maybe 15 feet from my house. One advantage I have is fairly nearby freeway and a waterfall behind me (concrete lined creek) which should help mask noise a bit. My sound meter read 52 to 54 dbC ambient noise at 11 pm last saturday night at the property lines pointing toward my garage. The more scary neighbor was the 54 dbC and he's also furthest away from my garage so that's good. i should probably re-check this in dbA, but i don't think it reads at all since the meter only goes down to 50db i plan to remove all existing wall board, beef up existing garage wall from inside with 3 layers 5/8 inch wallboard. inner leaf would be 3 to 4 layers of 5/8 on 2x6 framing, cavity to be completely filled with fiberglass insulation. cavity would be about 12" existing garage walls have overlapping wood plank exterior, not sure what the sheathing is yet. on the metal garage door side both leaves will be on the same slabs out of necessity. again 2x6 frames with 3-4 layers gypsum 12" gap by the way, the one of the main reason i'm using 2x6 is to distribute the load on the slab a bit. need to try to seal metal garage door as good as possible and fill gap between metal and outer leaf with non air-permeable material if possible to avoid triple leaf reducing performance, also possible rattling of metal door. rails for garage door will be removed. door can be ruined, not worried about it. probably will screw all sections together on wood frame. existing garage walls are separated from slab with 1/4" soft woody material. i do plan to have a ventilation system that i will explain later.

here's a diagram of my roof structure. ignore where it says "want to add 2 layers of 5/8" that's not correct. also ignore the dotted line of studio footprint, that has changed as well. the studio footprint is the entire area of the area diagrammed below

here's what i was thinking for the ceiling EDIT: this plan is no longer correct, has been changed! pic deleted to save headroom, i want to put the gypsum for the OUTER LEAF (3 or maybe 4 layers of 5/8 ) BETWEEN the joists as shown in the diagram probably i'll have to use 2x6 for the inner leaf as well, and maybe add more joists than the diagram shows (12" OC) , but this shows the basic idea or ... maybe i could add more cross beams (like the double 2x4 that somebody already put in) to reinforce the joists, since i have headers on each side to work with ... it's a shorter span ... then i could screw the sheetrock to these new beams ... not really sure about the absorbers, i just put them in to remind myself that this will also decrease the headroom. i should end up with a good ceilign height, around 7.25 feet or so

a quick check of this span calculator suggests that the "double 2x4 beam" had to be original to the construciton, not added by whoever put up the wallboard as i had hypothesized. there is no way a 2x6 will span 18 feet without help. 10 or 11 feet is more reasonable.

here is a rough floor plan ... the blue walls are new construction

Hi Dan, congratulations for finaly starting your CONSTRUCTION THREAD!!! Gonna be a threat to Pauls Diary? :twisted: I've quite followed your recent threads and remember you decided to drop the floating floor. What are you doing now? Cut the slab, do nothing? Florian :D

the dreamer wrote:

Hi Dan, congratulations for finaly starting your CONSTRUCTION THREAD!!!

thanks Florian! i've been following your project too.

the dreamer wrote:

Gonna be a threat to Pauls Diary? :twisted:

dear god, i hope not! i don't want this to take THAT long! :D :D plus i could never do that good a job. but i do like his "diary" style which can be entertaining AND informative. although there is a risk that the real questions i have will be buried and go unanswered. if so i can start threads on specific questions i guess.

the dreamer wrote:

I've quite followed your recent threads and remember you decided to drop the floating floor. What are you doing now? Cut the slab, do nothing?

i'm probably just going to leave the slab as it is. the slab is already "cut" into sections, so the flanking through the floor should be pretty limited. i hope :lol: i did a test with my ear to the floor and a hammer and the sound doesn't travel across the sections. i may however construct so i can retro-fit a floating floor if needed. Dan :D

OK -- first of all, this dude is a graphic artist, so he should be disqualified from the "drawings of the year" contest! :P But seriously... Nice drawings, Dan -- and yes, congratulations on starting your own freakin' thread already! :cool: You have posted many details, and I have just barely begun to absorb it all. But my first reaction to those photos were: :shock: Good Grief! :shock: I didn't know Steve's housebuilder did work in the bay Area! :roll: Am I the only one wondering how the heck that thing is holding together? And do you know if the funky garage addition predates the infamous Loma Prieta earthquake? :shock: Maybe I'm overreacting, but there are things in those photos that just don't look right to me. I'm very nervous about you adding anything to those existing joists. :? Now, in this image... I'm assuming this is not to scale, as the "new joists" on the bottom appear to be shorter than the "existing 2x6s" you show. FYI, I think you want to spec "Douglas Fir-Larch (North)" because that is, I think, what's available in our neck of the non-woods. Now, according to this, you'll need to use 2x8s 12" o.c. in order to span 20 feet. Note that I bumped up your "dead load" to 15psf (remember, you have to count the joists themselves in the load calculation) but bumped down your live load to 10 psf, since there's no room to crawl up there. Of course, bear in mind that I don't know squat about span tables/calculators, so take this with big grains of salt. Your mileage will vary! Finally, Dan, now that you have your own thread to hang out in, I hope you don't forget to grace mine with your headscratching now and then. :)

hi keith, thanks for coming to my threadwarming ... or something :D it's good to see you! :lol:

sharward wrote:

OK -- first of all, this dude is a graphic artist, so he should be disqualified from the "drawings of the year" contest!

yes that's fine but don't hold me to a high standard, this is for fun not work :)

Am I the only one wondering how the heck that thing is holding together?[/i] And do you know if the funky garage addition predates the infamous Loma Prieta earthquake? :shock:

one of these days i'm going to check my neighbor's identical model to see if he has the same weird garage. for some reason i suspect this is the original construction.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but there are things in those photos that just don't look right to me. I'm very nervous about you adding anything to those existing joists. :?

i agree, major reinforcement is needed

I'm assuming this is not to scale, as the "new joists" on the bottom appear to be shorter than the "existing 2x6s" you show.

yes sorry that's me being lazy and using an old drawing

FYI, I think you want to spec "Douglas Fir-Larch (North)" because that is, I think, what's available in our neck of the non-woods.

thanks for these tips, i didn't know this stuff. do you know if Home Depot has wood in "select structural" and "number 2" etc??

Finally, Dan, now that you have your own thread to hang out in, I hope you don't forget to grace mine with your headscratching now and then. :)

well i'm sure it will get plenty lonely in here once people realize how boring this thread is. i'll have to come out now and again to see other humans :) dan

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

do you know if Home Depot has wood in "select structural" and "number 2" etc??

Yes... It's typically shown as "#2 or better," which means it's a mix of stuff that is at least as good as #2.

"bout damn time... :twisted: Some basics - always design for #2+better, but buy the best you can get (pick through the pile or walk away if they won't let you) - then when installing horizontal members, watch carefully where the knots are on each piece; any knots right at the edge, if they are tight and you must, put the knots UP for joists so the knot will be in COMPRESSION. Looser knots, don't use that piece for horizontals or else put the knot where it will be supported by a wall, etc - never put knots within a couple inches of the end of a board where you will have to nail into the knot - if you're lucky enough to get a nail into it without the nail bending, it will likely split the board. KD lumber doesn't cost much different than green, and it's more likely to be in the shape it will STAY in - green is still drying, and may twist a LOT before it's achieved moisture equilibrium. I've seen pieces allowed to dry un-supported that were twisted about 75 degrees in 12 feet. That's what the wood will TRY to do in your frame... :cry: The downside of KD lumber (sorry, Kiln Dried) is that it's more likely to split when nailing - stay further from edges if you can, drill pilot holes if necessary that are just slightly smaller than the nails you're using. The UP side is, it's a LOT lighter weight (plus the twisty thing) Don't EVER put sole plates in direct contact with concrete, whether they are wood or metal; I always use at least one layer of 30# building felt and sometime two, this acts as a thermal break AND moisture barrier, and I STILL use Pressure Treated wood for sole plates, period. If you MUST drive a nail thru wood within less than about an inch from the end, first place the HEAD of the nail against something heavy and metal (like a vise, or a sledge hammer) and BLUNT the point of the nail by tapping it a few times with your hammer (not a "waffle head" framing hammer, this doesn't work very well for that job) - then, when you drive the nail the blunted end "punches" its way through the wood, actually removing a bit rather than "wedging" the grain aside - the end result is you can usually drive a 16d nail through a 2x4 within 1/2" of its end without splitting. Use this trick for EVERY nail if you go with KD lumber. I know it's slow, but so are "overs"... I don't think nail guns are a very good idea for building studios, UNLESS you have one of the newer ones with an adjustable drive depth; the reason I say this - a nail gun drives the nail REALLY FAST compared to using a hammer, so the inertia of the piece being nailed in place PREVENTS the piece from being pulled up snug against what you're nailing it TO - so framing/siding fastened with a nail gun is not going to be as strong or squeak-free as if done with a hammer in most cases. Senco (maybe others) has a newer line of guns that have an adjustable drive depth; these work OK for projects, PROVIDED that you set the depth so the nail does NOT drive flush with the wood, but sticks out about 1/8" or slightly more - then, after the first couple of nails are driven into a piece, you stop and SINK them with a hammer; this pulls both the nail and the pieces you're fastening up tight against the frame, giving a stronger joint. Once the piece (a sheet of siding, for example) has been fastened this way at corners and center of each side, you can drive the REST of the nails the same way, then go back and SINK them with the hammer. If you put EVERYTHING together with construction adhesive AND nails, this isn't such a big deal - but that's a lot of construction adhesive... Frame assembly - whenever possible, assemble your frame on a flat floor and then tilt it into place. Much easier to get the studs fastened correctly to the sole plate than toenailing each and every nail from above. Make sure that the CENTERS of each stud are at multiples of 24" or 16", NOT their EDGES (except for beginning and end of a wall, of course) - that way, wall paneling will meet in the middle of the stud and both pieces can be toenailed to the stud, without needing double studs at all joints. The way to do this is to lay out caps and plates parallel to each other on sawhorses, with the side the studs will be nailed to UP toward you - match up one end of the two long cap/plate boards, then use a tape measure and mark off your centers as follows - For 16" centers, mark the first stud position 1-1/2" from the end; tape measures for carpentry are marked with both 16" and 24" centers - do NOT mark the caps/plates directly on these marks, instead ADD 3/4" to each one - at these points, draw a line across the board(s) perpendicular to the board (a framing square or saw guide helps here) - continue down the entire length of the board to the end, but place the very LAST mark 1-1/2" in from the END of the board that's the SHORTEST (hopefully they are the same, but in studio building it's not always so) Now, go back and make a big "X" just to the LEFT of each perpendicular line on each board; this is to show that the LINE is where the EDGE of the stud goes, and the "X" shows WHICH SIDE of the line the actual STUD goes. Don't forget that you'll need TWO plates, one for the bottom and one for the top; they should be laid alongside each other for marking, so everything lines up. Then, tilt up each plate so the marks are TOWARD the studs, lay out the studs and fasten each by lining up its edge mark with the body of the stud OVER THE X, and nail as seen in the pic. For 24" centers, the only change would be to use the tape's markers for 24" centers. I'll do a quick sketch in case this wasn't clear for some, then gotta go... Steve

Wow Steve, thanks for the great and much needed construction lesson. i've been hammering nails a long time and never learned that trick about dulling the point. What do you think about using screws, i suppose the splitting problem you mentioned with kiln dried lumber is bad with screws too. but other than the splitting issue, is using screws bad? more expensive too i guess. other pros/cons? dan

Not sure if screws are legal for framing or not, never checked; but some other problems - standard wood screws, in order to be strong enough, need to be fat (like #10 or #12) - also, the shear point (where the two boards meet) would likely be where the threads are, so it's the SMALLEST diameter of the screw that's holding the shear force - fat screws will probably split green wood, DEFINITELY will split dry wood, the alternative for green might be DECK screws but again not sure about code or strength for shear - and finally, there's pilot holes for every fastener - :roll: ya gotta be German to wanna do anything THAT anal for that large a project :cry: On the nail blunting thing; I've also (couple of times) taken entire strips of nails for the nailer and hit each end with a bench grinder - not quite the same as the hammer flattening thing, but it works. So, on that joist thing; what's the plan there, or is there one yet? Steve

Hey Dan, Good Luck! I’m at the exact same stage for my construction. Are you gonna do the actual framing (and overall construction) yourself? :shock: Great framing/nailing info Steve… thanks! Alex

steve, paul woodlock used screws, but not on kiln dried wood i think. on the joists, why not add new joists ABOVE the existing joists going the 13 foot span 2x6 16" OC, fasten new & old with metal clips and attach drywall to new joists (between old joists) the span calculator says i can do 14 ft 3 in with 10 live/15 dead the only reason to attach old & new would be because i need to caulk to the old joists and the assembly needs to be stable would that work? i might be able to span these new joists between the old and new garage door headers ... not sure they would be strong enough though. but i could also add support under these headers if need be. sound plausible? what are your thoughts on going "in between" the joists to save headroom, i guess pine may be less dense than gypsum, so there may be a point where adding more layers doesn't help using this method below are two views of the same ceiling assembly (NOT TWO LEAVES!!! :wink: ) EDIT: current plan is for 3 layers of 1/2 inch Gypsum ... also support structure has changed

AlexT wrote:

Are you gonna do the actual framing (and overall construction) yourself? :shock: Alex

hi alex, our posts must have crossed ... yeah i am planning to do it all DIY in my spare time ... (so it will take me approximately 17 years to finish, haha) ... i'm fairly "handy" as they say ... just from doing, building forts and stuff or working on bikes and stuff since i was a kid. basically, i have a pathalogical aversion to having ohter people do stuff so i've learned a lot .. ever see that radio shack book on building your own speakers? yeah i built some of thsoe ... they sucked though. :cry: threw them in a dumpster ... one thing i'd liek to do with this thread is be very detailed with everything i do and have lots of pix so people can see how i'm doing things ... & also people can see when i'm doing stuff WRONG too :lol: dan

Hey Dan the Man with the Plan, And one hell of an awesome thread goin' here... ;) It's great that you're getting well acquainted with the nifty span calculator. :cool: However, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, how can you be sure you can add weight to your existing wacky ass structure? :roll: Seriously... Using the calculator for new lumber is great -- but have you been using it for your existing lumber that you're set on attaching multiple layers of heavy gypsum boards? I really am concerned that you're going to overload your existing structural members, even though you're being careful not to do so on the new structural members. You may have to go as far as demolishing your existing ceiling structure completely, then building two new leaves from scratch. That may seem daunting, but on the positive side, at least then you'll be able to construct it the way you want to, which may yield more headroom in the process. Hey, you could even do a peaked ceiling! :cool: Now, before you go on hating me, remember -- I wasn't planning on ripping down my existing garage ceiling in my studio area until you put that idea in my head! :roll:

sharward wrote:

... at the risk of sounding like a broken record, how can you be sure you can add weight to your existing wacky ass structure? :roll:

sorry, my bad, my illustration/explainin' could have been better. i should have shown where the NEW joists connect to EXISTING HEADERS ... i'll fix it tomorrow and post a corrected pic. the new joists WILL NOT "add weight" to the old joists, they are self-supporting cuz they're attached to beams at either end of the 13 foot span. however ... although the gypsum will be screwed to the NEW joists, i'm going to caulk to the OLD joists, so that will add weight to the OLD ... but the "strapping" of old to new should work out to make it all hold up nicely.

Hey, you could even do a peaked ceiling! :cool:

tempting ... the old joists i believe serve to prevent the walls from being pushed outward by the roof ... collar ties may fix this, but i'm not really sure i want to mess with that ... the idea of having the whole structure collapse on me is pretty scary :lol: dan :o

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

. . . although the gypsum will be screwed to the NEW joists, i'm going to caulk to the OLD joists, so that will add weight to the OLD . . .

Hopefully your revised illustration will clear this up, because that statement surely didn't! :? ;)

clear as mud eh? ok here is the revised drawing that shows the header beams. orange=beams. i can support these beams with posts if need be. by the way, i don't know the dimensions of these beams as yet, but i assume there is a standard size for this construction (two car wide opening). Pic deleted this shows how the gypsum will be screwed to new joists, but cauked to old joists. those little purple dots represent caulk. Pic deleted make any more sense now? dan :P

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

make any more sense now?

Yes, it makes much more sense now. And I don't think it will work. :? Although you plan to position the new joists perpendicular to the existing joists by attaching them to the headers, I believe there will be some bowing towards the center, especially under the weight of all that gypsum. While I agree the anchor points at the headers will take on much, if not most, of that stress, I think there will still be increased pressure on the tops of the existing joists, especially towards the center of the span. Perhaps going with even taller new joists will reduce this bowing effect... :?: I'm talking out of my you-know-what here, so maybe you should seek some guidance from Rod on this.

Let's see if I'm even CLOSE on what you plan - you want to - Pull all the old wallboard off the existing (under-sized and band-aided) ceiling joists, then - Put NEW joists ABOVE those, at 90 degrees (shorter span) - then, Put "inserts" (several layers) of wallboard BETWEEN the old joists, screwed to the new and caulked to the old joists - Place NON-backed insulation Build inner wall/ceiling frames 3 layers 5/8 gypsum Cloud Something like this? Steve

sharward wrote:

there will still be increased pressure on the tops of the existing joists, especially towards the center of the span

keith, let me think ... (also talking out of you know where) ... :twisted: yes there will be some bowing toward the center, but some bowing is allowed right? (L/360 is about .43 inches at maximum load)? :? as long as the weight of the old joists is included as dead weight in my calculation it should be more than ok (since the old joists can easily hold just their own weight) make sense?

knightfly wrote:

Let's see if I'm even CLOSE on what you plan

yeah, steve, that sounds/looks right. :D although i'm still trying to determine if 4 layers drywall per leaf would be better. i guess it depends on how much flanking will limit the benefit of more drywall, which i can't determine very precisely :roll: for the insulation, i was planning to 100% FILL the cavity with unfaced fiberglass insulation your bottom sketch is basically right, only technically you show the inner leaf joists going the long way, and i'd want to do them the short way as well. dan

One thing about actually starting this thread, it seems to make everything move faster. i have to realize it's ok to go slow (i just wrote "slab" instead of "slow" by mistake, tells you where my mind is at :o i basically had insomnia since 4 this morning trying to analyze whether i should float my floor or not. every time i think i've decided it turns out i'm not really sure. i wanted to link to a couple threads that give background to my thinking on this, as a way to integrate material important to my project and my thinking. there aren't really any questions per se buried in here, but any comments are of course welcome. my first thread on studiotips Floating floor questions! [Warning: long and incoherent] and a followup to that discussion Estimating flanking thru concrete if anyone is interested in following some of the background of my "to float or not float" investigation, and also my slow progression from "acoustic idiot" to "acoustic moron" (or is it the other way around?) these are good threads to read. so no i have not yet decided. on the one hand, my existing slab may isolate pretty well, especially as it is cut in semi convenient sections. on the other hand, don't i want the best isolation i can reasonably get, especially on a dollar for dollar basis? rod gervais has endorsed the suggestion of cut and repour an ISOLATED separate ISLAND slab within the slab (for the room within the room :wink: ), which sounds like it would work great. i have to say i'm considering that idea, although i'd rather keep the whole project a do-it-yourself thing. but his estimate of around $650 was surprisingly low (for pouring only, not demo). EDIT: here is an extremely relevant thread i forgot to mention: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3621 in which sword9 and cadesigner and rod g talk about this technique from what i understand (and i could be wrong still) a NON-concrete floor can be made to work if done carefully (very thick skin, big air space). BUT, will it improve things enough to justify the extra cost, effort and lost headroom. that is the question. usually non-concrete is not considered because using wood or gypsum is both LESS effective and MORE expensive to do. but it is LIGHTER which means you might not have to repour your whole slab. if i am not floating a concrete floor, i think that i can keep the load under a reasonable amount. it may be a risk, but i think it's a calculated risk. i take VERY seriously and respect what Rod says and will consider carefully. as Rod has pointed out, there is still the possibility of the slab not handling the weight. to help prevent too much point load i'd have to increase number of pucks (considering kinetics KIP pads) so that the load is as distributed as possible and use some time of 12x12 inch "plate" under the pucks so the load is more distributed. that would make it about the same cost as demoing the slab and repouring a new isolated slab. KIP pads alone would cost over $650 for the ones i would use (2 inches thick). once you include the wood members and skin, that would probably be around the cost of demo and removal of old slab (at least). so why even consider it? stupid, isn't it. it's difficult to explain really. see here for some of that discussion about slabs started by Keith Sharward which has some of Rod's comments http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3843 see also Keith's own thread here, which has been a HUGE influence on me and a guide on how to plan and communicate plans. this was one of my primary hangouts before starting this thread. that's probably why keith kept bugging me to start my own! :lol: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= dan