Dan F's One-Room Garage Studio

OK, but wouldn't any joists fastened to these 2x10's sit quite a bit higher than your bottom chords on existing trusses? And if so, ??!? Steve

quite right, it took me a while to figure this out ... i was going to nail another 2x board across the whole truss, but then i thought of an easier and probably better solution of just filling in the gaps in the truss with wood, nailing these "gap fillers" to the 2x10 on the back (with 16d common nails). ok right now there are only 2 nails in there, i didn't want to put any more until i figured out where the hangar was going. so these "gap filler" wood bits are securely nailed to the 2x10 behind the truss, but the bottom chord supports the "gap fillers" as well as a secondary support. my dad and i managed to get the 2x8's we needed and got them all up into the "attic" space, without having to cut a hole in the front of the garage, which was cool. we did attach one of them before calling it quits, which is the one shown below. i know that doesn't sound like much accomplished, but it took quite a while to just go to HD and get the wood. then getting each one up where it needed to go was pretty challenging, and kind of kicked my ass since i'm so out of shape. my dad runs marathons so he was fine. anyway it took 4-5 hours just to get the wood cut and up into position, and one of them somewhat nailed in. i kind of screwed up, i was intending to get 2x6's for the narrow space on either side where there is no space for a 2x8, but i kind of forgot about those. so what i have now is a gap between the 2x8 i put in a and the wall of about 48" ... had i done the 2x6 that gap would have only been 32" ... now i'm trying to decide whether i need to do those 2x6's or if the nine 2x8s on 16" centers will be good enough for an 18.5 foot wide garage, with 4 feet on either side with no new joist. however i was also planning to use straps to tie the new joists to the old ... so the old and new joists would perform more as a unit. so if the gypsum is supported more by the old joists in that final 4 feet, and they are supported by my nine new kick-ass joists, then everything should be peachy. i don't know if anyone can understand this or not, but it's the best i got right now. of course i plan to think about this some more, maybe do some math or something to help me figure this out. i could probably get the 2x6's up there, i think, although the joist we put in will make it that much harder. if i had to remove the joist we put in, it wouldn't be the end of the world of course. at best, the final "on 16's" joist will be still missing on each side.

thoughts on wood grades it looks like what i picked up at HD was Douglas Fir-South, because it says "D-FIR S-GRN" which might mean "douglas fir-south, green" although the hyphen being between the "S" and the "GRN" is confusing, makes you think that the "S" belongs with "GRN." EDIT: it does belong with GRN, that is part of the moisture content designation (over 19% moisture). when the wood pile says #2 or better, that's really what it means. after i got the wood home i realized that i had among my selections #2, #1 and at least one "select structural." however, i'm not sure these labels mean as much as I thought ... i distinctly remember rejecting a #1 that was complete crap. certainly a specific #2 can be better than a specific #1. anyway the difference between Doug Fir-South and Larch is worth noting, Larch is stronger as revealed in the tables put out by the WWPA: http://www.wwpa.org/default2.htm i only needed about a 13 foot 3 inch span. since HD carries a 14 foot 2x4 i got it into my head that there would be a 14 foot 2x8, but that was not the case ... so i had to drag home 10 16-foot 2x8s, which hung out of the back of the Toyota Sienna by at least 5 feet. I was a bit nervous getting them home but luckily had no problems with the local cops on the short drive home. but what was the alternative? i guess theoretically you could go somewhere, pick the wood yourself and then have it delivered. i sure wouldn't trust them to pick it :lol:

i haven't completely calculated all the weights exactly yet, but it seems like i should be ok here. #2 2x8 doug fir south 16" on center spanning 12' 10" can hold 35 lbs/square foot. if i have 9 of them in the center that's about 12 feet. even if i call it 11 feet that's 11x13 which is 143 square feet or total weight allowance of about 5000 pounds. so i've got this square area of awesome strongness in the middle of my garage area. then on either side i've got walls, also awsomely strong to hold up things, and a gap of 4 feet. so the question is, between my awesome square of strongness in the middle and the walls and they together hold up that 4 foot section that is somewhat less well supported? how much weight are we talking about holding up? well i haven't done every calculation but it will certainly be under 2000 pounds for the whole ceiling. the drywall if i do 3 layers of 1/2 will be 1200 pounds. the new 2x8 joists will add up to about 300 pounds. the old joists lets say will add another 250 pounds at most. so the total weight of this structure is well below 2000 pounds. and again, the total weight bearing capacity of my 9 2x8s is 5000 pounds. by the way that puts 277 pounds on each of the joist hangers, well within reason. they are HUS26 and are supposed to hold well over 1000 pounds. i'm not sure exactly how to read the tables :oops: but the lowest number there is 1550. by the way this also assumes the old 2x6 are not supporting any of their own weight at all, or supporting any of the load at all. which is silly since there was a half inch layer of drywall on them before. all things considered i think i'm in the clear. of course this also assumes that i'm building walls under the new joists on each end that will transmit the load back down to the ground. i don't want to overstress the truss or the garage door header, since my observation tells me that whoever built this house did as crappy a job as they could get away with. :evil: ... don't get me started!

Careful -- you're liable to get Steve going on his home's builder! :shock: :lol: Your story about protuding lumber led me to look up the section in the California Vehicle Code that governs that. In short... If it's during daylight hours and the protrusion is less than four feet, you don't need to do anything. If it's longer that four feet, tie a red or orange flag on its end (which Home Depot gives away for free). If it's at night, you have to rig a red light on the end... So, in other words, don't do it at night! :lol: It's pretty amazing how those tons start adding up, huh? :shock: I'm not commenting on your calculations, simply because I lack the confidence to do so... But it seems you're diligently using the calculator, which is probably better than what the person did who added onto that house of yours years ago! :evil: Unfortunately, you have to do calculations for your work plus the existing work, just to be sure you don't add a "final straw" to what's already there. :roll: I'll be interested in the outcome of your lumber stamp translation query... I have wondered the same thing. --Keith :mrgreen:

Hi Keith, thanks for "stopping by" ... :) yeah i looked that up too ... surprising, how there is no limit on how far out you can extend ... i guess that would fall under the category of "you can't do anything that the cop thinks is unsafe." :lol: technically according to the charts, i could have used 2x6 for a 12' 10" span 16"oc ... but i'm sure glad i used the 2x8s, much better peace of mind! i recommend overkill in this department. :) Dan

Funny you should say "overkill," when in fact it is the stuff "over" your head we're talking about, and it's "kill" that we definitely not want to happen to us. :P

:lol: and thanks for helping me pad my post count into the top 10 (4 more to go :P )

Hi Dan, I work as a Sales Manager for a lumber company and just wanted to let you know that the published standards are always overkill and over spec. The lumber grades you selected will be fine for the span and purpose you need them for. As an example in most cases a 2x6 will span what the tables say a 2x8 must be used for. It's just a arse covering exercise all around!!. JohnG

Then again, in the Northern California Bay Area, a seismic hot spot for sure, one ought not take any unnecessary chances! :shock:

Thanks for that reassurance, John! :) I discovered something else today, something Keith had mentioned in his thread I think long long ago, about truss uplift. it seems that it may not be a good idea to have a wall under the truss, because uplift could pull everything apart. aarrrghh, another thing to worry about. :?

true what you said Keith, especially since i already assume there is an idiot factor built in and generally take full advantage of it, whether it exists or not :lol:

Oh yeah, truss lift... :roll: ...I was going to just roll the dice on that one! Seems out of Sharward character, huh? ;-) There are, however, ways you can build in an allowance for truss lift. As far as "overkill" is concerned, I think it's generally wise to err on the side of overkill so that there's built-in leeway for the unexpected. I would imagine that a lot of building disasters could be avoided if there was a little more overkill and a little less corner cutting. So, if on a scale where 0 is suicidal, 10 is insane overkill, and 5 is strictly code compliant, 7 is a good target when costs are involved and 8 is even better when it's just a matter of spending some extra DIY time. 8) Yet another opportunity for Dan to boost his post count... ;-)

bit of a screw up last night, decided to start dismantling the garage door system ... i raised the door all the way up to take the tension off the counterbalance springs, cut the cables, thinking for some reason that the door would stay up ... it did not, it came crashing down very loudly, luckily i wasn't in the way. :shock: i didn't think any harm was done (other than scaring myself, my wife and possibly the neighbors) ... then i realized i had left a couple of wood scraps under the door area, which gave the door a nice little dent when it fell down. its not too bad, but enough to really bum me out. i can bang it out i think. it's not that bad. luckily i didn't have anything larger under there, i would have really had a disaster on my hands. had i had a milk crate or a stepstool in the way, i most likely would have had to replace the entire door. and of course, luckily that larger thing in the way was not my body. lesson learned: the garage door is extremely heavy and dangerous. it is not just the counterbalance spring you have to worry about but (duh) the big thing the spring is counterbalancing. the door is so heavy that i am barely able to lift it up at all now that the spring is disconnected. i'm not sure how much weight i can lift from a squat position, but it took just about all i had to raise it enough to slide a milk crate under it. so ... beware of the door. the spring works so well, that you don't realize how heavy the door really is. whatever you do, don't be as stupid as me please! or at least, get good life insurance. the smart thing might be to figure out how those garage door people do things and then do it that way. i'm pretty sure i did it the wrong way EDIT: Actually, the smart thing to do is call the garage door guy! i have to say this shook my confidence in getting this project done without killing myself. i'm sure i'll get over it in a couple days though. :?

IF this is a typical segmented door, there is a helical spring wound around a heavy shaft at the top of the door - this spring is preloaded by the installer so that the (effective) weight of the door when closed, is close to zero pounds. This is done by adjusting a heavy collar at one end of the spring, literally "winding up" the door spring til it balances the door weight. The collar typically has at least 4 holes in it, and the installer uses two steel rods inserted in these holes alternately so he can increase the spring tension by 1/4 turns. Once the required "preload" has been reached, there are LARGE set screws which are tightened on the shaft to maintain this tension. This tension has another name - stored energy. Unleashing this energy without proper tools and knowledge can KILL you, or at least make it difficult to play any instrument that requires both hands... :cry: I'm aware of how these work, and I STILL called a door guy when one of my springs broke a few years back. He made it look easy, but IT'S NOT. One slip can mean broken bones or WORSE. BTW, it's a good thing I had a couple of pry bars on MY side of the door when the spring went; mine's heavy wood, and I doubt I could have lifted it without. Glad your door was the only thing dented, and thanks for the reminder. I'd bet that somewhere near HALF the membership is working on garage re-do's, so this is really important to know... Steve

you're absolutely right, what i should have said above is, "the smart way to do this is call a garage door guy."

I just added a link to this from the "Safety During Demolition, Construction" thread. I'm really glad you're OK Dan! Are you going to post any pictures of the door?

thanks Keith, yeah i'll post a pic of it soon, of course ... piccies or it didn't happen (i wish :P )

My mom has a favorite (self-deprecating) saying: "No sense in bein' dumb unless you show it!" ;-)

Just wanted to say Hi to you Dan and also Sharward. I've read through this thread twice, end to end as well as most of Sharwards, both with many re-visits. Just today I figured out what a Truss actually does and why you can't put an uplift on it which is something you have previously posted about realizing. Thanks Sharward for putting up the link about allowance for truss uplift, which rounded up my research today. To bad about your garage door Dan, keep up the posting... I'm reading every new post. Marc

Thanks Marc :) I've been reading your thread too. that triple truss is something. :shock: the garage door dent pounded out pretty well. i bought a 4 pound hammer at HD which cost me about 18 bucks. finally got around to removing the garage door opener last night, not too hard. my dad is coming up again on the 11th, looks like the plan is to attempt to put up the wall that goes under the truss. i guess this may not be ideal but i think it's the best thing to do, don't see any way around it. :? maybe the fact that there is a 2x10 nailed to the bottom chord of the truss (original to the house) and a large portion of roof rests on this 2x10, will mitigate the possibility of uplift. i bought the cheapest powder-actuated hammer tool HD carries, to attach the walls to the concrete floor. anybody have any expereince with these? can it really pound a nail into concrete? i can't wait to see that.

Dan, I've not used the "powder-actuated hammer tool" but I do not when the time comes I don't want to use one. That is the tool you load with basically gun powder to drive nail? If so, I've seen them in action, plug your ears 1st, it's a gun shot sound and it will be next to impossible to get the nail out later, they work. I got a few things on my walls that are there for good. Had a conversions with my arctictect and contractor buddy about attaching bottom plates to concrete and I am going to use tapcon screws, which are the blue ones at HD. Don't know if this is better then concrete nails, I do know it's more time consuming, but I already own a hammer drill. My triple truss is really called a girder truss. Marc

Marc, Do you have to drill into concrete to use those tapcon screws? Having had some experience drilling holes in concrete that's something i really want to avoid doing. i don't have a hammer drill and also you can go through a lot of drill bits in the process. I was hoping the gunpowder thing would be quicker and easier. Of course, I always use ear protection when doing something remotely loud. maybe i will double up with foam plugs AND over the ear muffs (or is that a triple leaf :lol: ) by the way i always wear eye protection too and a hard hat as well. i may look like a geek but that thing has saved my noggin plenty of times. maybe i will reconsider the powder tool if i can get more people to weigh in against it. it does seem too good to be true. Dan

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

i bought the cheapest powder-actuated hammer tool HD carries, to attach the walls to the concrete floor. anybody have any expereince with these? can it really pound a nail into concrete? i can't wait to see that.

Are you talking about the ones that use .22 caliber blanks to shoot in the nails? I'd have two words of advice: 1) Wear ear protection - They are LOUD. Especially if you are in a confined space like a garage. 2) Wear foot (and calf, arm, leg, eye,...) protection. To be honest with you, if you haven't used it yet, I'd recomend returning it now and using anchor bolts instead. You only need a hammer drill (not strictly necessary but goes a little faster), masonary bit, and a wrench. That is how I put up all of my walls. I was advised against using the "concrete bullets" (I was going to rent a gun instead of buying one), because depending on the age and composition of the concrete you are shooting into, you can blow a nail into it and have it completely shatter or create cracks from the point of impact to several feet away. Using the anchor bolts, you drill a hole through your bottom plate into the concrete, then just lightly hammer in the anchor bolt with a washer and nut on the end (both supplied in the box). Then you tighten the nut with a wrench and it locks everything down. One big advantage (that I hope to never have to use) is if you need/want to take the wall out, you only have to loosen the nut and slide the bottom plate off. You then either cut off or pull out the bolt and you're left with just a hole to fill. Just my 2 cents worth. len

I guess our posts passed each other!

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

Having had some experience drilling holes in concrete that's something i really want to avoid doing. i don't have a hammer drill and also you can go through a lot of drill bits in the process. I was hoping the gunpowder thing would be quicker and easier.

Again, from personal experience, I drove over 50 of the anchor bolts into my concrete floor and didn't have any trouble drilling the concrete. It wasn't like drilling in butter but it really wasn't that bad. len