Marc's Patio & Garage Studio

New questions to think about: Can drawing of the year and putz of the year acknowledgement be given to the same person on the same day? Marc

Tried post this in Words of Wisdom, or "How NOT to do it" but was having trouble with the pics and the picture is the best part. The following is a continuation of previous babbling about hating my attic crawl space. :roll: 40 year 0ld, ½” drywall can not take the weight of 180 pound man. Let me start from my wife’s perspective, sitting in the next room. She knows I am in the attic above garage and hears a bang, boom and a clump. She comes into garage to find me looking down upon garage from attic spread eagle between trusses as I’ve busted a new hole in garage ceiling. She could see me from head to knees, my arms and feet are the only thing holding me up. I’m fine, laughing and she moves the ladder to me to crawl down. :lol: What happened :?: My task was to fish the control wire for my sprinkler system through an existing tube of wires for my Air Conditioner compressor on the side of house. Sprinkler system was in the way of studio, I relocated, rebuilt it and this was the final part of the move. Once wire is moved I can redo some landscaping and the entry walkway to my studio/patio. I crawled into limited access space which is even worse then my main attic. I took with me 2 pieces of plywood, to balance my weight on plywood, on truss, instead of ½” drywall. Drywall is directly attached to truss. I scooted/hurdled my way between a truss and kept moving towards the wire "fishing" location. By scooting I mean worming my way moving 4 to 5 inches at a time, trying to reposition and stay on the plywood. I got to the location and completely crammed my head into the lowest portion of roof, maybe 8” to 10” space. Made a reach for the cable to fish into a pre drilled hole and boom… I got the job done… but… I now had some of my weight on one piece of plywood not two. I had to loose a peice of plywood on account of truss bridging members and being at a real low point of clearence. Scooting backward was not as easy as going in. I got in a really awkward spot and had to shift the plywood out from under my weight to get my feet over an obstacle (support for garage door motor) with enough room for the worming scoots. I scooted some more and with my arms spread on truss (24” centers) feet on the obstacle, the drywall under my belly dropped to the floor :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Luckily I was precautious enough to be keeping part of my weight on something other then the drywall. The drywall fell on the location in garage where I normally store my PA gear, but I had moved it all to get ladder to ceiling and pre drill the hole. A couple guitar cases and various other things got covered in drywall dust. And most lucky the drywall did not let go at a point where I had no choice in worming but to put all my weight on drywall. 8) Got my 1st studio build battle wound under my arm... a good scab. The hole about 2' by 4'. Pain in the but to fix, but considering all the drywall I've signed my self up to hang.... hmm I still wish I had not busted this hole. Marc EDIT, I re-posted above in Safety During Demolition, Construction :D

Let me be the first to offer my condolences! :( I know some are likely to laugh (and it's good that you were amused), but I'm sure in retrospect it's pretty upsetting. You're very lucky on many counts. Your story is the reason I have "atticphobia." Actually, your story would make a fine addition to the "Safety During Demolition, Construction" thread, so I hope you'll include it there, or at least a contextual link to this page of your thread. I know, I'm always so seeeerious... Again, I'm really glad you're not hurt (too badly), Marc! 8) Thanks for sharing your story. --Keith :mrgreen:

You're very lucky on many counts.

Keith, yes I am lucky on many accounts. I've been counting how many ways I could have fallen on to concrete floor and obstacles below. If I hadn’t taken precaution I could have had some serious injuries. When going into attic I knew it was possible the drywall could give way, this attic space does not look as inviting as my main attic. In fact every time I placed any weight on drywall I thought about it, especially when I choose to loose my plywood support in order to accomplish task and then lost 2nd piece of plywood cause I was basically stuck in a hard spot. Being aware of the possible danger is what saved my A$$. This was the 1st time I made a crawl through this attic space. My main attic I already hate (previous post babble) and have come up with a plan to make the necessary trips up there safer. I’m going to cut a new access door close to work area above studio and install scraps of plywood to keep my body weight on.

Actually, your story would make a fine addition to the "Safety During Demolition, Construction" thread, so I hope you'll include it there, or at least a contextual link to this page of your thread.

Yes I’ll add it to safety during construction. And thank for pointing me to “to float or not to float”. It’s been on my “to read” list and decided to look it over tonight. That thread over on studio tips, goes above and beyond helping me with current wall issues, MAM and float a floor issue. Statement that started to make it click for me was: By Paul Woodlock: in AT's Studio in the Garage

A floating floor should only really be considered if you design the room that sits upon it where the walls and ceiling have a low enough resonant frequency to stop bass. Which means they need to have a LOT MORE MASS than your current design. I would advise putting the resources ( Time, effort and $$ ) that you've reserved for your floating floors into creating much heavier walls and ceilings instead. A room within a room ( without a floating floor ) which is really heavy will give you much better TL than a lightweight room on a lightweight floating floor. A Lightweight Floating floor is pointless with a lightweight room ( such as yours ), because your original floor already exceeds the TL specs of your walls and ceiling. A lightweight floating floor is also pointless with a heavyweight room. Even a heavyweight floating floor is pointless with a lightweight room in top of it. IOW a lightweight floating floor is pointless period for room within a room designs. See this discussion for more details http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1653 hope that helps

BTW I’m still not done relocating the controller for sprinkler. The wire placement is permanent outside, but I’m waiting for studio walls to go up to choose final placement of controller inside, so the nice new access hole will remain till outer studio walls are built. Marc

Aloha Marc, Glad to hear that you escaped without serious injury. Having fallen off the ladder in my garage a while ago onto a very hard concrete floor knocked the wind out of me. All I could think of was; "Help, I've fallen and can't get up!" When my wife came out to check on me and asked if I was alright, all I could was say:"Ouch!" before busting out laughing.

I’m going to cut a new access door close to work area above studio and install scraps of plywood to keep my body weight on.

Wise decision! Be safe, Dad! Aloha 8)

guitardad72 wrote:

. . . My main attic I already hate (previous post babble) and have come up with a plan to make the necessary trips up there safer. I’m going to cut a new access door close to work area above studio and install scraps of plywood to keep my body weight on. . .

If that means "putting an attic access door inside your garage," be aware that doing such a thing will probably require a permit and may be difficult to do while meeting code. Your garage is attached to the house, which means your access door would have to be at the same or better fire rating as the ceiling. Three of my immediate neighbors have done this. None of them got permits, and they all have seriously compromised the fire containment integrity of their garage ceilings! :!: Many house fires start in garages -- only kitchens outnumber them in terms of starting points. Think of the combustibles that are often stored in garages and the fact that we park cars that are full of gasoline, oil, and other combustible liquids. We've all seen car fires on the side of the freeway, right? Well, sometimes they happen after parking in the garage, like what happened to the Oyola-Hernandez family. Water heater pilot lights sometimes ignite vapors of improperly stored combustible liquids.

Well it's not another access to garage attic space I have to install, it's to the main attic. Hopefully that’s the last time I’ll ever need to get into the garage attic space. The garage and main attics are inaccessible from one another. When I bought the house there was only access to the garage attic, none to main attic. When we had new Central Air system installed (no new ducts) I had to cut an access door to main attic and that was the 1st time any one had been in the main attic space since the house was built in 1964. I had a permit for AC install, I’m sure access door was not included. The type of access we did without a permit was to cut a square (unaware at the time that my popcorn ceiling contained asbestos). :shock: :x :cry: I put 2x4 support in-between truss making a square frame, to attach trim boards to for a lip for a new piece of 5/8” drywall to sit on as the door/removable panel. I glued fiberglass to the upper side of door/panel. In this instance I can’t think of a better way to meet fire code, but I’m not a building code or fire inspector. My access door/panels do not have stairs or anything other than wood and drywall. Making another square access door/removable panel closer to work location in main attic is what I need for obvious safety reasons, to work on electric issues and to bring material, mostly insulation required by code into attic. Please see a previous post dated Feb 15, where I go off about my dislike for current main attic access and the pic showing house with A, B & C labels.

If that means "putting an attic access door inside your garage," be aware that doing such a thing will probably require a permit and may be difficult to do while meeting code.

Dang, it… permits for everything. I have to research and call building code office again. Existing door/panel is garage is plywood held up with trim attached to truss and a 2x4 frame. Guess I should change that panel to drywall or recommended product. Thanks Keith making me aware I have yet more research to do, probably change some existing conditions and calls to make. :roll: Marc

You're quite welcome, Marc... It's certainly not my intention to cause you headache, but rather, a desire to do just the opposite. It is ironic how at times we want to do something to make something safer, when in fact there may be code constraints and other factors to consider that, if done incorrectly, could simply exchange one unsafe condition for another. I find it really bizarre that you would have a house with a main attic that is not accessible! The house I grew up in was also built in 1964, yet there was an attic access door in my sister's bedroom closet. Are you absolutely certain that there's no access point in the house, or perhaps even outside the house, maybe at a gable vent? Here's an excerpt from this page:

Attic accesses are required for any attic that has a clear ceiling height of 30 inches or more, and the opening needs to be a minimum of 22 inches by 30 inches in size. Note that one dimension is 22 inches instead of 24 inches – the building codes have made this adjustment so that access holes will fit between commonly used roof trusses, which are usually on 24-inch centers. Here again, the codes don't typically specify inside or outside access. Many older homes have outside access hatches placed in a gable end, but in newer homes it's much more common to find them inside – again, typically in a centrally located closet. If the access is inside, a dam must be constructed inside the attic so that it surrounds the opening and prevents blown insulation from falling into the hole. Also, the access hatch must insulated to the same level as the surrounding attic, which is usually done by attaching a batt of insulation to the attic side of the hatch cover.

Perhaps that part of your house doesn't have an access point because the height is less than 30 inches and as such one wasn't required... :roll: Again, definitely talk to your local building department to see what specific requirements apply in your jurisdiction.

You're quite welcome, Marc... It's certainly not my intention to cause you headache, but rather, a desire to do just the opposite.

I fully welcome comments that may lead to more work which question safety, building code and other concerns.

I find it really bizarre that you would have a house with a main attic that is not accessible!

Believe me I do too :!: :!: :!: :!: When did the 1st walk through of house before sale I wondered where access was, I poked my head in garage access door and dreaded the thought of trying to squeeze from garage to main attic. When AC was installed the installer did try, a skinnier guy then me try to fit through and could not make it so we cut the new door in main attic. Before that hole was cut I searched at least 5 times for an access point because I had no idea whether or not attic was insulated. There are some older homes in Florida with very bad or no insulation.

Are you absolutely certain that there's no access point in the house, or perhaps even outside the house, maybe at a gable vent?

OK you made get out of my chair :D and do the search again, walking twice around the house while enjoying a smoke. No vents, no way into attic. Note my house looks like it has had no major even minor upgrades till we bought it. We had original outdated, extremely ineffective and dangerous HVAC system replaced. That was within a month after we bought the place, a $5,000 Train system. It was a hard bill to swallow being a 1st time buyer but when we bought I figured that into purchase price. I just went for a walk with my son & had some conversation with 2 other neighbors. I know of at least 4 other homes in my subdivision with no access to main attic, I don’t know how many more there are or how many homes had to cut the access out. That’s a good article you quoted from; there is more info in there to take into consideration in my circumstance. Mainly I can not install any appliance or electrical panel in attic… I was not planning on it but it’s good to know that I can not. Preliminary research: Florida building online is hard to find and answer for on this subject From: http://www.batticdoor.com/installation.html It says: The 2000 International Energy Conservation Code (IECC™) - is the latest version of the Model Energy Codes. It has been adopted either state-wide or in municipalities in 26 states, and specifies that all penetrations in the building envelope between conditioned and unconditioned space that are sources of air leakage (attic access panels are specifically mentioned) must be sealed with durable caulking materials, closed with gasketing systems, weatherstripping or otherwise sealed to limit uncontrolled air movement (see IECC Sections 502.1.4.2 and 602.1.10). Nearly all of the 50 states (as well as our territories) have adopted an Energy Code either the same as or based on a Model Energy Code. Model Energy Codes commonly used are the 2000 and 1998 IECC, or the 1992, 1993 and/or 1995 Model Energy Codes (MEC). AND http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/do ... /26450.pdf …names what I’ve been calling attic door/panel a Scuttle hole cover. Document has basic design of “Scuttle Hole Cover” and a “Pull Down Attic” Staircase. Both are designed for energy efficiency. I’ve found no info on fire containment as of yet, but I suspect fire containment will relate to effective energy efficient design. I had a chat with neighbor who works for a housing contractor. We went over a few points of my project and the attic access. Just last week he cut an attic access into a new house, he witnessed building inspector peak his head through access to verify other stuff. His access door was built really similar to my proposed access door; he said to use same frame size pieces as bottom chord of truss, there was no weather stripping on door/panel and the inspector had no problem with it, house passed. Makes me question whether I need a permit or not, above says only 26 states have attic access doors in code. Regardless I’m going to build it to code and am going to call code office tomorrow to verify. I am thinking in Florida this may not be coded for attic doors.

Perhaps that part of your house doesn't have an access point because the height is less than 30 inches and as such one wasn't required

From top of bottom chord, to under side of bridging meeting at top mid point of truss, its 36” high. The actual highest point of attic would be almost 4 feet. I’ll post to conclude the subject after building code call. Marc

You rule Marc! FYI, I don't necessarily think that only 26 states have codes that apply to attic openings. I think virtually all parts of the country do. However, perhaps only 26 states require the energy efficiency aspects (gaskets, etc.) that you cited. Anyway, it's nice to see another code-conscious DIY studio guy on here. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

OK, In Brevard County, Florida (Home of Kennedy Space Center) no permit is required to make an attic access door/panel, real name: Scuttle Hole Cover. I’ll quote the building plan examiner:

“as long as I do not mess with anything structural.”

That’s not saying permits are not required anywhere else, I know I do not need one. Keith, about the permit thing and code in general so that I do not surprise you down the road… My original idea included all aspects of my project with application for permit. My architect, based on a previous experience on designing a sound room in Vegas advised me to keep my “inner room” out of the plans. I’ll get inspected on a new Air conditioned addition and then I’m free to do what I want. I hesitated with this but a conversation with my neighbor (Air Conditioning Contractor) affirmed the plan. If I’m ever questioned neighbor advised to say what he did about an addition he did in a previous residence… he added two rooms in the garage and said they were “temporary structures”. My architect used the same words; also keeping in mind value of home is I ever decide to sell… So I’ve said my peace and hopefully won’t surprise anyone following along down the road. How ever I do plan to build to code or better and if at any point I talk about, or post a pic with something looking out of code or unsafe I welcome all comments. I talked with Architect this morning. I’ll have my plans a week from today (Monday) and then shortly after apply for building permit. Following is a pre-babble to a question, feel free to skip to question: That brings me to my next task at hand, my electrical service panel. It’s currently 150 amps, 40 years old and has no spare breaker spots. It is also currently in my most important wall of sound isolation. Recapping for a second, I did have an “A” plan which did not include knocking out 10 feet of concrete block wall. Let’s say plan A was $3,000 giving me a 82 square foot room, but door & desk placement left me with less then 50 square feet of stretch area. Minimum room size in Florida Building code is 70 square feet. Plan B (current with knocking down wall) gives me 120 square feet and 105-115 square feet of stretch room from optimal placement of doors and desk. Plus I’ll have room for a drum kit if desired but not on a daily basis, a couch and room for guests. Lets say plan B = $3,000 X 146% (difference between 82 & 120 sqft) = $4,390 OR $1,390 estimate difference in material cost from A to B. ADD on required additional costs related to knocking the wall down: Architect: $800, Wall removal: $600 to $1,800… and next potential shocker the electric panel upgrade. I have 3 electricians lined up this week to come to house and give me a quote. My options with upgrade are: 1. Upgrade to 200amp, leave panel where it is… not an option for a double wall right in front of panel. :!: 2. Upgrade & flip panel to other side of same wall, but it will leave a sound isolation hole. 3. Upgrade and move panel to outside of a new outer wall, either built in the wall creating a hole to garage isolation or mount externally on wall… but this outer wall has to be built 1st, and current location of panel is kind of in the way of building the wall. 4. Upgrade and move to another location in garage or my family room, not to a location on any studio wall. Moving in the direction of most house cable seems a small pain in the butt, but possible with the least amount of boxed extension connections. Note I do not have a main breaker at my meter, main breaker is currently on service panel, a new cable from meter to new panel is required by code and I have the option to install a weather resistant main breaker switch (disconnect) at the meter outside. Power Company, free of charge is required to unhook my service from power line when upgrade switch is made. I did get one quote on the phone for the electrical work but I figure the price was high because the guy just did not want the job. Quote was $2,500. :shock: I suspect I’ll get quotes in the next 3 days any where from $800 to $1,500 to do this job by an insured Electrical Contractor. How ever in saving money I do have another option. Question: My building code and permit allows me to act as General Contractor on my project, if I subcontract to an insured contractor everything is fine I just pay the bill. I do have the option to hire qualified workers, in this case a certified electrician; pay them by the hour or lump sum as long as I also pay workers compensation and taxes on behalf of employee, as if I am a regular contractor & he should not be able to sue me for personal injury (I Hope). Does any body have any experience or references to good or bad stories with the above approach to hiring qualified workers & paying tax and workers comp for them? All comments are welcome. Marc

Dealing with electric service panel The 1st electrician stopped by today, looked at everything, gave ball park numbers, is going to mail a quote off and most important educated me with the cost & aspects of my electrical work. 1st off, refering to my last post, I no longer think hiring a qualified electrician is as good as hiring an insured electric contractor. BTW By code (at least in Florida) if your hire a worker (who is not self employed contractor or company, with no liability insurance) by the hour or by lump sum to work on any thing requiring a permit (or more), you are suppose to pay workers comp and taxes on behalf of worker. This partially covers your butt, but anybody in USA can still try and sue you for any reason... it's a free country. :roll: One thing I previously did not think through to the end, regardless of knocking the wall down, was that to be safe I need a new service panel. I currently have a 150 amp service panel with 16 breaker spaces, it is 40 years old and is full with no breaker spaces left. TomM recently moved his service panel, his thread is here: [url=http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5359] Basement studio thread.. time to start this thing[/url] My options are: 1. Change out to a new 150 amp 30 space service panel, install in same location (not a choice) or flip onto other side of wall (better choice but sound isolation hole), parts $400 & labor $400. Total: $800 2. If I were to do anything requiring switching out the 2 phase 220V main line from meter to service panel the total price jumps to $2,500 to $3,000. That includes upgrading service & panel to 200 amps, moving the panel regardless of amps to another location further away from meter and or installing a weather resistant main breaker switch at meter location. None of these options I would call cost effective. Reason for jump in price is related to re-routing new 2 phase 220V main line from meter to service panel along side and through a concrete brick wall and through attic. The quote I got on the phone previously was in Ball Park. 3. The last choice is to change out to a new 150 amp, 30 space service panel and move location closer to the meter, re-using the existing 40 year old, 2 phase 220V main line from meter to panel. One or more jay boxes would be installed in attic to place connection extensions of most 120V house wire which currently run in the direction away from the meter. This would be an additional $400, making the ball park grand total $1,200.00. The only part of this I don’t like is that it re-uses the 40 year old 220V main line but… In 2 days I have appointments with 2 more electricians to compare price and recommendations. If I do move the service panel, here is a diagram of where I would locate it to, building a fake 2x4 wall to flush mount new panel in my family room: Only thing to question is: Do I really need to upgrade to 200 amps. I’m planning on 2 or 3, 20 amp circuits for studio. This is a private studio/rehearsal space and at present I’ve got a chunk of gear but nothing along the lines of a pro studio. Do I really want to re-use 40 year old 2 phase, 220v main line. (Price of replacement sure tells me too!!!) Also I learned a dangerious thing about the meter box today. PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS... I do not have a main breaker/switch/disconnect at meter. The way to completely disconnect power from house with this out of code system is to pull the meter (the glass can) out it's spot. This is how the power company or fire department will disconnect power. Marc :twisted:

Decisions, decisions... Regarding becoming an "employer" of laborers -- I would recommend avoiding it. As you've started to uncover, there are just too many potentially expensive (and possibly devastating?) pitfalls that could cost you many times what you would hope to save. Stick with licensed contractors as per your owner-builder declaration, always make sure they're insured for liability, and always make sure that if they have employees that they're covered by workers' compensation insurance. Some things to consider with your electrical panel situation... Although upgrading to 200 amps may seem like overkill, it really isn't by today's home construction standards. If you do opt to move the panel, make sure the electrician thoroughly understands your goals and provide a primer in soundproofing. I'm concerned there would be big junction box of sorts in place of the old panel, which would probably defeat the purpose of moving it in the first place. I think electricians are accustomed to moving circuit panels because they're not in a convenient location -- but in your case, you want to replace the panel with lots of mass, and that may not be doable if there's a big junction box there instead. Plus, remember that the junction box(es) must remain accessible. --Keith :mrgreen:

Decisions, decisions...

Tell me about it, or wait Keith that would take you way to long… it’s very apparent in your thread you’ve been through the decision process, rough & minor many times :shock:

Regarding becoming an "employer" of laborers

Yup, I’ve had a few conversations with my “local network of people” and it very much does not seem like a wise option for reasons you just stated and more. Upgrading to 200amps & replacing 40 year old electrical materials would jump the cost of project enough that I’ll have to consider a finance plan “B”. Also have to consider a planned renovation of my kitchen and future unthought-of renovation/additions. Time for what now… more blessed research of course. :twisted:

If you do opt to move the panel, make sure the electrician thoroughly understands your goals and provide a primer in soundproofing.

Dang right!!! :!: 1st thing I did with electrician was to sit him in front of my computer and showed him SketchUp design of room(s). Then we looked at existing conditions. Then back at computer I showed him pics of attic, related pages on this forum and pages on JohnSayers.com by his request. I’ve yet to talk to an electrician who recognizes the term “Star Ground”, they end up calling it isolated ground which is close, if not the same thing, depending. :roll: No electrical panel or connection box will remain in my wall of sound isolation. All connection/extension boxes will be in attic. No appliance or electrical switch will be in attic, code for that in a crawl attic or under floor space is to install light with switch and other related safety stuff, which would add more hassle. :roll: I referred to a “jay box” in last post which is a big empty electrical junction box and (in my case) will be used to house multiple connections. This is better then installing many smaller junction boxes or so says electrician #1. One thing I am relieved from right now is having ball park numbers of hopefully my last major unknown cost. The electric service panel stuff I’ve been a little afraid of finding out the cost. :(

remember that the junction box(es) must remain accessible

Ah… the confusion in understanding electrical code available on line. :x Makes me think back a recent conversation with a local friend, before I was aware of some codes. I wonder how junction boxes can be buried behind drywall and pass code… this is what the friend of mine did, by inspectors request and he passed it. NFPA 70A: National Electrical Code® Requirements for One- and Two-Family Dwellings NOTE: Carefully click through above link to page, click "preview document" near page bottom, then you get a "view only" online version. Biggest previous confusion in code was the statment, something like “service panel must be accessible to all occupants” but does not state anything further. (I thought: Could I can burry panel behind a wall, and make an access door like a closet? Does not sound like a safe idea, but code examiner said maybe… but the bigger problem is the closet, I’m on a septic tank, if room looks like a bedroom then I'd be going from 3 to 4 bedrooms on house & code would require me to upgrade me septic tank… which is of course something I want to stay away from.) For 600amp service panels code states 30” to 36” in clearance but those panels a home owner does not deal with. Only with a call to code office I found the answer as 30” to 36” clear access to panel… further if outside or inside near a sink or water service, panel box has to be waterproof. Marc :twisted:

Today, I had 2 more electricians look at my project. Both gave ball park quotes and ideas/opinions. I’ll go more into that in a later post. I’ve now been well informed of my options but it's almost information overload :? and I still have to make a final decision of upgrading and relocating my service panel. :roll: I got a site plan from architect for addition to house studio. :D He made a couple mistakes. :shock: :? :cry: :shock: :x :cry: He put the correct address in small print for the plot layout, but in huge print near the seal he put my old address which was on the check gave him. :roll: He had a door swing the wrong way and placed walls to make outer room look better. I was kind of upset with him, it became obvious to me he had not heard a word I had said or just didn’t give a $%&^ about me stressing importance of Mass Air Mass. :x Unfortunately this is a case of live and learn. He said inspectors will not notice if I build walls 5” from where he has them. He took the plans to be submitted for permit back with him to correct address. I do got to call him in the morning one more time. The guarantee of his work is that I’ll get a building permit. Still architect e has helped me a lot with general construction of project. Through his insight the order of certain construction and demo has changed, makes more sense and may save me money. :mrgreen: Dan Fitzpatrick, if you’re reading along I got 6” long, 3/8” Tapcon screws (or anchor bolts) specified in site plan from architect to attach sole plates to concrete floor and end wall studs to concrete block walls. This is part of the design which will make my exterior walls meet 125 mile per hour wind shear stated by code. :shock: Still messing with another related side project, the patio stones that lead to my studio from driveway, I made a couple trips to HD & Lowes today. Proud to announce I got AO Safety QUICKLATCH™ PRO Dual Cartridge Respirator and AO Safety Chemical Splash/Impact Goggle. I’ll be posting more on electrical service panel, site plan from architect and my updated design of double walls and entrie room. Marc

sharward wrote:

I find it really bizarre that you would have a house with a main attic that is not accessible!

Well, you can add me to that list too, Keith. The house I just bought does NOT have access to the attic. Is there an attic? Yes. Is there a light switch in the top of the upstairs hallway staircase? Yes. It turns on a light up in the attic. But I'd never know if it was on or off cuz I can't see up there or GET up there. The builders were shady. When they redid this house they started without permits and got caught and fined. The house was inspected but as soon as it was they sealed up the access. There's a term (I can't remember the word right now) and it means that if I cut out a hole in that certain spot I will have the access back. The light switch isn't labeled so no one knew what it was until I asked one of the former carpenters. I guess they hurried up and sealed it because they didn't want the inspector coming back and poking his nose up there in regards to the roof. That said, I'm told that I needn't worry because the roof is fine and the the actual joists up in the attic could hold "a dozen cadillacs", as he put it. But nevertheless, I have no access to the attic.

Inspired by Kathy Please see below visual reference of latest studio design. Note: The Garden: a butterfly garden for my son. It will be partial rebuilt once exterior walls are up. Patio hanging plants: again studio will reposition all plants currently in patio, along with drip system attached too... Sprinklers: pic just before I took them out of studio outer wall. These are the reason I got the 2’ x 4’ hole in my garage ceiling. Sweet Spot: of course.

Back to the babble... of electrical service panel Electrician #1 was the young guy, same age as me. Electrician #2 was slightly grey. Electrician #3 was grey. Electrician #1 would install or flip new 150 amp panel for $800. Electrician #1 would install new 150 amp panel to option 1 for $1,200 and re-use existing 220v cable. Both electrician #2 and #3 would not move panel location to option 1 because it’s questionably out of code. The type of 40 year old cable in new installs can only be run 5 feet in current code. Electrician #2 would upgrade service to 200amps and move panel to option 2 for ballpark $2,200. Includes new service pole, main breaker, new wire, a jay box in attic… everything to code. Electrician #3 would do the same as #2 but for Ball Park $2,750. But wise full grey haired #3 was the only one to recognize term “star ground” and offered to also replace (free of charge) my 40 year beat up ground rod with 2 oversized new ones. It seemed like he thought the entire job through to give advice and may do a better job in the end. Other thing was to consider if I really need to upgrade from 150 to 200 amps, and that’s a no I don’t. I only plan on upgrading other house appliances to new ones that are more energy efficient. My Air Conditioner and no other appliance make my lights dim. However if I had 125amp or less service it would not be a question. Best article I read on the subject is: http://www.handymanwire.com/articles/se ... grade.html I’m leaning on the $2,200 from #2, wait for quote, call to haggle for ground rods and make the job easier by ripping more drywall off parts of my garage ceiling so install crew doesn’t have to go through attic as much. Electric work has now become the 1st job to get done before main demo and construction to get the panel out of way. BTW, I write out these posts out in my babble style just because it helps me sort my thoughts. Knowing that someone else may read it helps me explain it to myself. I know I’m currently on related topics to studio construction but bare with me, I promise to be bashing down a wall soon. Marc

Kathy, If I were you, I'd be busting a hole into that attic to confirm what is up there. If they started work wihtout a permit, got inspected and then coverd it up maybe they pulled something past the inspectors. Marc

And last post for the night, I think :roll: NO I’m not trying to pas my post count; just had 2 much happen today and trying to keep it all in separate thoughts. :idea: Design as of Feb 24. Details: No floated floor. Room sits on 4” concrete slab. Family room is 5” higher on own slab. Mass Air Mass of walls: Outer walls: West and North West: ½” & 5/8” drywall. North East is CB filled with sand. East and South East are exterior with ¾ stucco, ½ plywood, ½” & 5/8” drywall beef layer between studs. South West wall: ¼” wood panel with ½” & 5/8” drywall beef layer between studs. 2x4 studs: existing and exterior are 16” on center AND all other new, which can be are 24” on center. Air Space between walls varies. 8’ AIR between drywall surfaces is constant. Some walls are inside out. Combo of R13, R19 (overstuffed) or rock wool “between” walls; both inner and outer. 8” of air between drywall surfaces, Exception is 4” air in between North East Inner & Concrete Block wall with cavities filed with sand. Inner walls are floated on rubber. 2x4 on 24” centers. Inside out walls are South East, and North. All inner walls havw 1/2 & 5/8" drywall. The south Inner door will actually be part of a 6 degree or more angles sot resonator wall. I put it straight for easy movement. Ceiling will be 2x4 joists on inner walls, 4” air, rock wool between ½” & 5/8” drywall inner room ceiling and existing ceiling which is part stucco and green board total 1 ½” thick. Attic space above will have R30 insulation in between truss chords. Hmm the floor will be a hardwood finish, maybe ¾” plywood layer underneath, I’m still recovering from dropping the floating floor. Steve, hope the picture and above details explain enough. Sorry if I did not meet the 22 page down key quota. If you need a more detailed pic ask, or if a SketchUp file will help here it is in 2D: http://marcdobson.com/studio/Construct/ ... nFeb24.skp I’m not planning on taking down existing ceiling but it could be an option. QUESIONS Looking for comments or to have mistakes pointed out. Goal is STC 65 - 70 LF TL @ 50Hz, 27 - 30 Should I add more drywall or use just 5/8" and no 1/2". I'm atleast a month away from building inner walls. Actual start of outer walls now depends on code office approving permit next week. :D Next post will be with site plan of from arcitect. Marc :twisted:

Headed for bed after last night shift, but Ceiling will be 2x4 joists on inner walls :?: :?: WTF span do you have that will let you use 2x4's for joists??!? (Possibly more "ragging" to come, need sleep...)

Steve,

WTF span do you have that will let you use 2x4's for joists??!?

Well 1st off I plan to use #5 grade, rose wood 2x4’s. Sounds OK right? OK the truth is about 2x4 joists; I don’t know where I got the idea from but I got it from somewhere. It was based on saving height. The span is about 9’ 2” from outside edges of 2x4 inner walls. I’ve had 2 conversations with friends since you posted that, one said 2x4’s the other said 2x6’s and that 2x4’s could only be trusted up to a 5 foot span. My guess is by the 1st word of your question that I should use 2x6’s for a 9’2” span. 8) My room is 15’ long from outer edges of inner walls. My room is about the same size as Keith’s. :mrgreen: I’m also really thinking about using 3 layers of drywall all around instead of 2 as shown below. I choose 2 layers, ½” and 5/8” based on various documents & threads keeping in mind STC and LF TL from NRC Wall ST Science document, Gypsum Board Walls: Transmission Loss Data. I am confused why it’s recommended to use varying thickness of drywall (& varying material) when it seems most people just put up 2, or more like 3 layers of 5/8” drywall. In anticipation of more “ragging” see pics below, so that said “ragging” can be delivered more accurately. I’ve not included all walls but have included at least one of every Mass Air Mass construction method I’m thinking on. North Wall(s) Mid point South east wall corner: South wall Mid point: Questions: 1. Use 2x6 joists for 9’ 2” span, not 2x4 joists for new inner ceiling, joist rest on inner walls & drywall is on cleats in between joists, right? 8’ 4” existing height in half the room (existing patio side ceiling is 1 to 1 ½” combined stucco & green board, furring strips attached to truss) 8’ 5” existing height on other (existing garage ceiling is ½ drywall attaché directly to truss). Truss in attic has 2x4 bottom chords, 24” on center. I want wood floor finish and an angled cloud from ceiling. Optionally for inner ceiling I could add RC, but would loose height without drywall in cleats. Existing attic space will have fluffy insulation in between bottom chords of truss for code. 2. Keeping in mind goal STC 65 - 70 and LF TL @ 50Hz, 27 – 30 I should not putts around with 1- ½” & 1- 5/8” layers off drywall all around. Should I move up to 2- 5/8” layers, 3– 5/8” layers or 2– 5/8” layers with 1-½” layer sandwiched in between for almost all walls? Adding drywall would account for loss of density from wood studs 16” on center, where I’m beefing up with drywall using cleats. Sorry I did not show cleats in pics. 3. I’m only 95% sure I’m not going to float the floor. It’s a healthy debate on other threads and my confusion stems from documents I’ve read especially http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... stics3.htm after going through many thread and documents, making my things easy I’m presuming I should not float floor, do you agree? Concrete slab is 4” thick and sits on the sand barge of Florida.

Gathering copious quantities of "ragging" data................. :twisted:

Moving along, I got the site plan from architect today with my corrected address. Site Plan NOTE: its rotated 90 degrees counter clock wise from my drawings, north is to the right. Also demensions are slightly off by inches. I am going to deviate a bit from the plan as a detailed in previous post (walls moved by 5” and door swing to the garage), architect said no big deal. East Elevation Next thing is to finalize electrical upgrade decision, order it and then wait for electrician to get permit, schedule Power Company for a temporary disconnect of service. Near the time of electrical work, I submit for building permit of addition to house with above plans. I am keeping addition and electrical permits separate. :roll: In the meantime I continue to work on pre construction parts of project. :twisted: Current task is: I removed 200 or so 12” x 12” concrete patio stones, river rocks and leveling sand that make the walkway from driveway to garden which leads to eventual studio. I’ve leveled & removed dirt from the area partly to have the grade slope more away from studio, now I got to put the walkway back together. :roll: Previously I removed sprinklers from North CB wall. Sprinkler rebuild and other work screwed up patio stones which were not really level in first place. :oops: During the past weekend I’ve struck a couple barter deals with various musicians I work with, work done on studio construction in exchange for studio time. :!: This has become very much needed becase of the cost increase. Steve, Hope above additional data does not cause ragging overload. Congrats on the addition to your family :D :!: Thanks for the cigar on thread Yet another "gator" - ain't life grand??!?, I grabbed one without posting. :D Marc :twisted:

marc, yeh it's a waste of time to mess with different drywall thicknesses. others will confirm. check out report linked on page below for data on different wall constructions ... should help a little. there are other similar reports to check out if you like this one. http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir761/ your walls sound a little on the thin side to me. certainly with walls of 1/2 + 5/8 only, the floor is not going to be the problem. slab provides good low freq TL, better than these walls would. ir761 shows few tests with 27+ db TL @ 50 hz except pg 350 that has 5/8 x2 on both sides. however theres probly a dip below 50hz ... id go 5/8 x3 if you want to get that level of iso .. but 5/8 x2 is minimum.