Marc's Patio & Garage Studio

I know costs are increasing and that's scary, but definitely give Green Glue a good look.

Sharwood, Hmm, Green Glue I know I’ve read about it and not retained all the info. I’m scared of another cost increase; I’m going to wait a few days. Dan,

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir761/

:D Yup, got that document a few weeks ago, in fact I’ve quoted it some whereas on this forum or in this thead. I’m very interested in:

Other similar reports to check out if you like this one

The only other doc or tool I’ve found to date which gives good STC and LF TL data is the MSMresonance03.xls file available for download from studiotips.com (it looks real cool but I’ve yet to figure it out :? ) I believe its Steve’s recommendations in various threads on this forum to use different drywall thicknesses. :? Where I got my STC and LF TL goal was from the NRC gypsum wall report and real life measurements playing with my db meter. :twisted: How ever that NRC document only really goes up to double stud walls with 2 layers of 5/8” drywall. :( I’m going to quote the NRC document. It’s in metric and I’m not going to bother to convert it 8) : 1 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board 2 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board 3 90 mm wood studs at 610 mm on centre 4 90 mm of glass fibre insulation in cavity 5 25 mm gap filled with air 6 90 mm wood studs at 610 mm on centre 7 90 mm of glass fibre insulation in cavity 8 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board 9 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board STC 69 LF - TL 50 Hz - 26.7 63 Hz - 31.8 80 Hz - 36.6 100 Hz - 39.5 etc... Moving on from there I justified (SWAG) dropping 1 - 5/8” drywall layer to 1 - ½” drywall layer by the recommendations I’ve read, by the extra other existing materials around my room and by my guess of the realistic noise I want to keep in and out of the room. But sometimes you got to say WTF. :mrgreen: I’m going with 3 layers of 5/8” drywall, increase the cost, hopefully exceed my isolation goals and sadly loose another couple inches to the width of my room. :twisted: Dan & SHARWARD, Question:[/b] Is either of you considering putting slot resonator walls in your rooms? (I don’t think Sharwood is) I’m realizing a slot resonator wall will create a triple wall effect and jumping up to 3 - 5/8” layers of drywall may be part of the cure for isolation loss. Both Steve and the MSMresonance03.xls file by Eric Desart stated this. I’ve dropped a slot wall next to my family room because of this. Thanks for the advice Dan, I need someone to confirm I was wrong, justified to think I was wrong and guessed correction was close. :twisted: BTW my favorite word of the day is SWAG: "Scientific Wild Ass Guess", and who’s post do think I got that from, but Steve’s. Marc :twisted:

Aloha Marc,

I’m realizing a slot resonator wall will create a triple wall effect and jumping up to 3 - 5/8” layers of drywall may be part of the cure for isolation loss. Both Steve and the MSMresonance03.xls file by Eric Desart stated this. I’ve dropped a slot wall next to my family room because of this.

Have you considered John's inside-out wall for your slot wall? Aloha 8)

kendale wrote:

Aloha Marc, Have you considered John's inside-out wall for your slot wall? Aloha 8)

YES, In fact my 1st design I forgot about the inside out wall. 2nd round of design incorporated it. 3rd round knocked down the CB Wall still incorporated inside out walls. I’ve no clue to what # round of design I am on now, probably 10 & I’ve made sure to not post all designs. For current design refer to, previous posts dated Feb 24 over view of entire area AND Post dated Feb 25 with 3 close up pics of walls both with no slots shown (top of this page)… that my north and south walls, which are both side walls are inside-out and will incorporate slots into the cavities of 2x4 wall. The south wall is only inside out on the east section (east of door), I will face east in the room. The addition to these designs is walls will have 3x 5/8” layers of drywall instead of 1, ½” + 1, 5/8” layers of drywall, I think. :D Thanks Kendale all help is welcome. :mrgreen: Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

Sharwood,

guitardad72 wrote:

Dan & Sharwood Question:

Ahem... Signature line...?! ;-) Anyway...

Is either of you considering putting slot resonator walls in your rooms?

No, I'm not. My room is all about isolation, isolation, isolation. Acoustics will be a pathetic and insufficient after-thought. ;-) But that's OK, because remember, I'm not going to be recording in there (other than maybe some quick and dirty "reference" recordings). I'll probably have some basic bolt-on or hanging stuff to cut down on reflections and maybe some bass traps if they don't take up too much space... Things will be cramped as is!

Hi Marc, Hey thanks for chiming into my thread with the advice on filling the blocks with sand. I too have been following your thread closely and thought I would reply in your thread here with a question. Have you any idea how to get the sand into the block. I have looked around the forum and been trying to think how you get it up in there. In my case I would need to drill into the top block (or better still I think the top block is exposed between the ceilingh joists). But I can't seem to figure out how to get the sand up there. Do you need to rent some kind of pump / pipe system? I can't just pour it in since the I only have a couple of inches to play with before the subfloor above is in the way. Thanks and keep up the great work! Andy

Spans - 2x6 doug fir #2, 24" centers will span 10'8" at 10 # dead load for ceiling joists, other species are all over 10 feet. Framing weight adds approx. 1.2 PSF, leaving 8.8 PSF capacity; 5/8 gypsum runs just under 2.4 PSF per layer, 3 layers would be 7.2 PSF, for a total of 8.4 PSF. No other coverings considered, insulation will add less than 1 PSF if you use standard fluffy fiberglass even 12" thick. 2x4's on 24" centers, same conditions, will only span 7'3" (doug fir) - on 16" centers (worse LF isolation than 24" centers) - 8'11" - on 12" centers (even WORSE isolation) 2x4's would span 9'10", but my own personal thought there is DONT - besides the 2-3 dB hit in isolation, you're trying to cram 3 times as many screws as normal into 2x4's, there's GOTTA be a chance of WEAKENING a couple of "questionable" joists there... Drywall - I've clarified the "different thickness" concept in a few places, but they're scattered and NOT in the reference section where you've been looking. I'll reiterate here, and if someone nags enough :? I'll amend the two main places in the reference section (why hasn't anyone invented 48-hour days (that don't wear you out any more but you get twice as much done ) yet??!? Pluses for differing thicknesses in successive layers in a wall - (NOT GLUED TO EACH OTHER) Differing coincidence frequencies, flattens out the Coincidence dip at around 2-3 kHz by a couple of dB. Minuses for differing thicknesses - confusion on job site, probable wrong thickness applied somewhere, causing tearout Loss of mass, causing worse TL on low end by a couple dB Bottom line is this - if you use all 5/8 you improve bottom end performance, at a 1-2 dB penalty around 2.5 kHz - but since bass is the hard part of isolation, it's better to build for low frequency and the rest will take care of itself. You also remove the chance of screw-ups, cut down on the open floor space you need to store two stacks of drywall instead of one, and improve on your chances for bulk discounts by ordering all the same stuff. BTW, "X" code drywall is about 4 pounds lighter per 4x8 foot sheet (and usually more expensive)so won't perform quite as good on low end as standard stuff - Keith SHERWOOD :twisted: and I went over this sometime back, it's probably on his thread on about page 5, or 8, or 11, or... - bottom line is, ANY gypsum wallboard as thick as WE would build is AUTOMAgICALLY at LEAST 1-hour fire rated when built correctly. "Inside out" walls - originally invented by John, great when space is at an ABSOLUTE premium. Their shortcoming is that they do NOT offer as good isolation as "normal" walls, there is NO WAY they can do this. For one thing, if you put 3 layers of 5/8 rock on a 2x4 stud frame, a 12 foot section of this wall 8 feet tall will weigh 787 pounds; even HALF of that (when tipping up AFTER drywall is in place) is nearly 400 pounds. All that weight will be supported by the EDGE of the bottom plate until the wall is fully upright, this is the same idea as a woman in spike heels - SHE may only weigh 110 pounds, but (assuming 3/8" square heel size) she's putting almost 900 pounds per square INCH on a floor... Add to this the problem of getting the innermost (acoustic treatment) insulation to press firmly enough against the wall panel to damp it properly, and you'll likely lose ANOTHER couple dB (up to 10, actually, but typically around 5) compared to a "regular" wall. Also - air gap drops from maybe 8" minimum, down to (assuming masonry in one leaf) less than HALF that; a serious "hit" in m-a-m and LF resonance. Bottom line - inside out walls are a great idea (if you are REALLY cramped for space) but NOT if you're looking for best isolation. Green glue - costs approximately as much as TWO MORE LAYERS of 5/8 drywall - I've been too swamped to keep up with Brian (probably couldn't even if I had NOTHING else to do :roll: ) - but I'm wondering if he's done a test wall comparing 2 layers of drywall WITH GG to FOUR layers of drywall WITHOUT... Still, for a CEILING where weight is more critical (and if isolation is also critical), GG makes a LOT of "cents". ANY acoustic treatment that "traps" sound will negatively affect isolation, but ESPECIALLY RESONANT traps like panels, helmholtz - only way around this is to OVER-build the containment shell(s) to compensate. Isolation and "sweet" sound are nearly ALWAYS at odds with each other, don't know another way around this. Filling CB (concrete block) with sand AFTER construction - not fun, never done it. Don't know of any reasonable way. Some thoughts - If possible, drill 1" holes down through the upstairs wall plates and the sill plates on top of the block, get one of those long funnels (used for adding transmission fluid to cars) and pour the sand in from above - then fill the holes with Fixall or similar patching compound. This could ALSO be tricky, depending on accessibility. Drill 1" holes in the SIDE of each top block, in each cavity, same funnel, constant vibration to work the sand into the holes - this is MADNESS. Also, every few blocks will be ALREADY FILLED with CONCRETE but ONLY AT THE TOP, for "J" bolts - finding out which ones, and how far down the concrete goes, would be my idea of purgatory if not Hell itself. Also, these holes would need to be filled afterward with the CONCRETE version of Fixall or another concrete patch product. Third, most expensive way - a high output air compressor and sand blast system, build a curved nozzle out of steel brake line (tubing bender required), right angle drill, drill the sill plates, insert curved nozzle, and let the sand blast down into the cavity til full. You would need to keep the nozzle aimed straight down into the wall so you don't blast a hole in the side of the block, it's gonna be messy, if you BUY the compressor it'll cost you about $1700 (that's what mine cost a year ago, and it's about the smallest that would keep up - a TRUE 5 horse, 80-gallon INDUSTRIAL version [draws 25 amps @ 240 volts] that will sustain 22 CFM @ 175 PSI indefinitely) - also, the sand will erode your curved "nozzle" fairly quickly so you'd probably need to make about 30 of these before you're done... A lower mass, but more hole version of this (Rod once suggested) is to drill holes in each cavity maybe 2 feet apart (that's about 72 holes in our hypothetical 8' x 12' wall) and fill with spray foam, then patch holes with concrete patch - no extra mass, but will alleviate the 3-leaf effect of hollow block AND a gypsum wall... 'Nuff rambling (note, NOT "ragging" :wink: ), gotta go play Dad/Gramps, haven't seen me perfect new grandson yet... Steve

Steve, Congratulations on the new Grandson. Get out of here and go enjoy him!! I like the last suggestion. For my situation being as I previously had at least a 3 leaf wall before demo - (brick on the other side of the CBlock and previously had the "Foak" panel wall about 1 inch out from the CBlock), and sound outside these walls was not a problem; I am hoping that I can get away with it. Having said that though, I am concerned that being as these cinderblocks are open at the top and will be inside my ceiling cavity, that it will decrease my isolation to the upstairs of the house. Is this possible? Do you think it's at least work doing something to the top of the Cblock? Many Thanks and again congratulations. Hope I'm not taking your thread off track here Marc. Best Regards, Andy

There's dedication for y'all... Steve hasn't even laid eyes on his grandson, and there he goes with a detailed (and coherent!) response of over 1,200 words. Steve, you just plain rule -- no doubt about it! I'll even let your "Sherwood :twisted:" jab go. ;-) :lol: Yeah, I agree that Green Glue is probably best left for cases where (1) ceiling and/or wall weight is an issue, (2) space loss due to thickness of wall or ceiling surface is an issue, (3) one is paying a contractor for drywall installation, (4) the DIYer is willing to spend some money to save time and backache, and/or (5) one is willing to pull out all the stops at ensuring the best isolation possible and is willing to combine multiple layers (>2) of drywall and Green Glue to achieve it. I've said it before, but so far my experience working with Green Glue was very good. (Note I'm referring to the actual installation experience so far, and not the results yet.) --Keith :mrgreen:

Marc, I'm not planning any slot resonators in my project at this time. at the moment i'm just planning basic broadband absorption on the walls/ceilign, with bass traps in corner. but if i can't get things to sound good i may look into some slat type treatmetns ... but i think i can worry about that later? its certainly not going to be built in to the consturction.

Ditto everything Dan just said! :lol:

Steve, Andy, Dan AND SHARWARD, Thanks for all the comments, Sharward, Oops, please except my apology Sir Sharward oh mere mortal, for the typo on your name. In my defense the only thing I can say is if I would have not seen the dang miss-spelling in your signature, countless times I most likely would not have miss-spelled it. Previous typo corrected at time of this posting. Looks like Green Glue is going to become at least part of my drywall construction. Dan & Sir Sharward, Thanks for the thoughts on isolation & acoustics after the fact. I now have to go back and re-think my goals and play a sacrifice, cost effectiveness comparison between acoustics and isolation. This is going to take a while. Andy,

Hope I'm not taking your thread off track here Marc.

I don’t think you can take my thread (or more like my project) further off track then I am capable of. See below. Anything productive which help current & future forum members or readers is welcome on this thread.

Have you any idea how to get the sand into the block.

My idea is very similar to Steve’s:

Drill 1" holes in the SIDE of each top block, in each cavity, same funnel, constant vibration to work the sand into the holes - this is MADNESS.

Madness yes, but in my case I only have 9’ 3” of block wall to deal with. I’ve further edited out a previous pic of my CB wall to be filled with sand: Again above pic is my presumed CB wall construction, a cross section, vertical view. I’ve made the above guess from what I can see and what locals tell me. One benefit I have is that I am tearing down a CB wall next to this one and hopefully that will give more accurate info about the cavity placement. Difficult part is that I have Stucco on both sides of this wall so I can not even see where blocks start and end. All I know is this: typical CB walls for a house in Florida is that footer in ground is two rows of CB, 16”H total and all cavities filled with concrete; header of last two top rows of block (and at every floor) is 2 blocks with cavities filled with concrete; every corner cavity & cavity adjacent to corner is filled bottom to top with concrete; every 4 feet one cavity is filled from bottom to top. Plan is to funnel sand into the side of top block through a 2” or 1” hole. I don’t think the size of the hole will make it harder to repair but I think a 2” hole will provide a limited better view inside block. I am planning on building a contraption hopefully with just a step ladder, funnel (maybe homemade funnel) and some plywood to get the sand up near the ceiling and slide into the funnel. If ladder does not work then I’ll try another contraption made with 2x4’s and some plywood. This is going to be a fun experiment I plan to share with 3 year old sun who loves playing with sand and dirt, who knows maybe a funnel, beach bucket and toy shovel will be the most fun way to do this. I am either going to buy construction sand which come in 50 pound bags OR I’ll use the free sand from my back yard. If I dig 1 to 2 feet down anywhere on my property I hit almost clean sand Andy, are you sure the tops of your block are open? You have way more concrete block wall to deal with then I. My method may prove to be very time consuming. You may very well get to filling your blocks before I fill mine as my time line has just changed again, even more then I noted in recent posts. ...and what happened with you tiles, everything removed with good results? Steve, Thank-you, for the post and info, I’m going to refrain from asking questions for a while as I’ve got to consider a few previously over looked things and plan accordingly. Back to research & SketchUp I go. I hope you are enjoying your new grandson!!!!! Well now I have to re-consider the placement of the exterior/outer wall that will divide my patio and studio. I’ve been battling with this for a while and thought I had come to conclusion with it. The difference is making half of my room wider which is good for isolation, and will also make the whole room “L” shaped which may be good placement for a slot absorber and may also cause a reflective corner to deal with. I’ve shown examples of what I could do on my thread in design forum: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5580 The ever evolving game plan and side projects related to my studio build: I’ve now got to build a fence at the back of my property! How the He[[ is that related to studio? -Sprinklers in wall of studio were removed and rebuilt> -Sprinklers & other stuff messed up patio stone walkway> -Pulled up walkway & soon as I stop typing I go back to work putting patio stones back down> -Area beside patio stones has been an unfinished garden bed for sometime. Why unfinished? My son loves playing in it, as if it is a sand box… and yes it really is a sand box but I want plants in it, but fear them being dug up by playful 3 year old son> -Solution: Build sand box & why not a swing set, tree house combo in back yard but> -Problem is there was a 6 foot deep, 8 feet high 90 feet wide bush planted 30 years ago at the back of my property line> -I’ve been staring at the bush for over a year> -Yesterday I had stump grinder crew remove and level the tree like bush> -Now I got to build a fence> -Once fence is built on reclaimed land I can> -Remove some of my guilt about spending so much time & money on Daddy’s project and give my son safe place to exert his energy. While I complete work above: -Continue to work on design of room. -Order and wait for my electric service and panel upgrade/relocation. -Cut new safer access door to attic. -Continue to shift "stuff" around from garage to house to who knows where to get it out of the way of studio build. -Near completion of electric I submit permit for addition/renovation to my house. -1st bit of work is cut the end slices of my CB wall; I will not knock it down yet. -Then put up frame work of exterior and interior new walls. Wait for inspection. -Then put up sheathing and plastic to try and contain the mess of… -Tearing down the CB Wall. -Finish the renovated room, redo screen and door on new smaller patio…. -Wait for final inspection. -Put up all drywall on garage side of room… relocate storage items back into garage. -Oh yes got to paint the garage and paint new patio to my wife’s liking. -Then I get to work on what we’ve been talking about… building these dang isolated walls with some sort of absorbers built in... and that's when I'll be filling th CB wall with sand. Marc. :twisted:

No sweat on the name thing. 8) Wow, that's a long list of honey-dos! :shock: I don't envy you at all for your sand filling challenge. Oy vei! :? If the government tried to make prisoners do that, it would surely be challenged in the courts as "cruel and unusual punishment"! :!: Rather than filling the blocks with sand... Would a foam insulation, injected under pressure, be worthwhile? Granted, it wouldn't add any mass... But it might at least make the wall a single leaf, and then you could add mass to one side... :roll: --Keith

No sweat on the name thing.

Cool man! I was hoping my apology did not sound to sarcstic. :oops: BTW, where or how did "mere mortal" get next to your name :?:

Wow, that's a long list of honey-dos!

It's longer actually :!: once I'm out of my current studio/work area which is our family room, I turn family room into a temp kitchen, then gut & redo our kitchen, then fix up family room, onto other rooms and landscaping. Work involves removing popcorn ceiling, I figure it's going to take 3-5 years or more... and really it will never end. I'm just glad my studio is an important peice of the puzzle because it's doubling as a home office which I can not do with out. It's part of my income.

I don't envy you at all for your sand filling challenge. Oy vei!

I really do not think it's going to be that bad. :P I've come to like sand from living in Florida 8) , it's very easy to dig a hole in the yard as compared to up north. At worst I'll have a lot of hit and miss drill holes in the CB wall. The foam insulation cans are only about $6. If all fails I'll resort that. I am thinking I'll top off the cavities with the foam above the sand. I've used the foam on other parts of the house and it expands real nice. I'm off to do some more reading: green glue, isolation with acoustic absorbers are on my list, then I continue to bounce off the walls of studio that I've not built yet. :twisted: Marc

Foam may kill the multi-leaf thing, but where Marc is looking for max isolation, the sand will VASTLY improve things in combination with a stud frame and second leaf, properly damped. This is basically the plan for my own next studio's outer shell - dry-stacked block, surface bonded and sand-filled, then 3 foot air gap (not a typo) and 3 layer gypsum inner leaf. I will literally be able to walk INSIDE my outer walls if necessary, to apply other damping, etc, and just to allow plenty of air circulation (of 40% RH conditioned air)when NOT using the studio. Why? because I CAN, and because I want this sucker QUIET. I've commented elsewhere on various neighbors. I have the space since I'm designing from the inside out, and outside dimensions are no problem either - at least, not as much of one as listening to blown hemi race cars, machine guns, hay balers, chain saws, tractors, dogs, crickets..... Anyway, you could do a LOT worse than sand-filled concrete block as one leaf in a m-a-m wall, all things considered... Steve

knightfly wrote:

3 foot air gap (not a typo) and 3 layer gypsum inner leaf. I will literally be able to walk INSIDE my outer walls if necessary, to apply other damping

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: I'm speachless, for once :roll:

Such the luxury one can afford when one has acreage! 8) Of course, our "done" done studios will be much cooler than Steve's "not yet started" studios, regardless of the air gap he's calling for! :twisted: (Sorry Steve -- couldn't resist! :D) As for my "mere mortal" status, read this. :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

Ooooh I like the idea of the expanding foam for my wall. (Although I'm still not convinced how much of a problem I have). How much does this stuff expand? I've got to imagine I would need at least one can per block no? Asbestos is finaly out I am pleased to say. I finally put an update in my threadwith all the latest exciting news. Looks like you have enough work to keep you busy for some years! :shock: I predict that once you get your new studio finished you're going to have little spare time!!! :)

Back on February 23, Marc wrote:

Other thing was to consider if I really need to upgrade from 150 to 200 amps, and that’s a no I don’t. I only plan on upgrading other house appliances to new ones that are more energy efficient.

I see in this post that you're definitely going to upgrade to 200. What made you decide to go that route? Not that it's a bad thing... Just that there may have been more "brain babble" that you haven't yet shared. ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

andy_eade wrote:

Ooooh I like the idea of the expanding foam for my wall. (Although I'm still not convinced how much of a problem I have). How much does this stuff expand? I've got to imagine I would need at least one can per block no?

I wasn't talking about [url=http://greatstuff.dow.com/greatstuff/cons/biggap.htm[/url]those little cans you buy at Home Depot[/url]... -- I was talking about professionally installed stuff:

Over the past 20 years, [urea-formaldehyde foam insulation] has re-defined itself as the ideal product for core filling concrete masonry units. The foam is injected through small holes in the mortar joints or top-filled into the cells where it flows under about 55 - 75 psi of air pressure. When fresh, it looks like a thick shaving cream, drying or "curing" to a consistency similar to a stale angel food cake. As it is injected, it seeks out and fills all available air spaces, providing an excellent insulation value for the integral wall unit. Unlike loose fill materials, it will not settle or flow out weep holes.

I see in this post that you're definitely going to upgrade to 200. What made you decide to go that route? Not that it's a bad thing... Just that there may have been more "brain babble" that you haven't yet shared.

I am glad you asked Sharward as typing this is giving me a break from playing with leveling sand and patio stones :D Babble 8) Urh In the directions to lay down patio stones (concrete pavers) it is suggested to buy all the stones at once to get a consistent color, I just figured out that not only does the color vary but the size does too. :shock: The stones I’m playing with now are 1/8” to ¼” size difference. Had to pull them up again and sort them Aggravating yes… but at least when someone walks from my driveway to garden, into patio with hanging plants and then into studio it will look nice. :mrgreen: Why upgrade to 200 amps? Main reason is relocating my service panel to a location further away from the meter will cost the same amount of money regardless of staying at 150 or upgrading to 200 amp switch. Here’s the layout with options again for reference. I got all the quotes in so I’ll work from the smallest quote to explain further. "Current location”. Flip a new 150 amp panel into my family room. Electrician #1, the young guy: $950 -Panel would remain on studio isolation wall, -Would create an isolation hole, -and triple leaf effect if flush mounted. -Could be surface mounted but would look crappy; I could build a fake wall around it so it’s kind of in a “closet” and still create a triple leaf. “Option 1 Panel location”. Move new 150 amp panel into my family room off an isolation wall. Electrician #1, the young guy: $1,400 to -Move is closer to meter and existing 220v cable is reused. No main breaker or new pole at meter location required. *How ever Option 1 Panel location has a problem with re-using that existing 220v cable. Neither Electrician #2 or #3 would even consider doing this as they were not sure if it would meet code. Electrician #1 did ask if I’d like to do it with out a permit. Problem is the current code for the type of 220v cable I have states it can only be run a total of 5 feet from meter to panel. Re-using the cable in existing location is OK, grandfathered in... how ever depending on the day code examiner may not approve re-using that cable to a new location. This cable is 3 wire (I think) and it’s 40 years old. New 220v cable would be 4 wires (I think). Electrician also stated in the North East this cable is only allowed a 3 foot run. And most important if I did a electrical upgrade like this without a permit and then if my house burned down most likely I would not collect any insurance… that is just way to risky. Option 2 Panel Location Install a new 150 amp or 200 amp panel in a location further away from meter. Electrician #2, slightly grey haired: $2,300 and Electrician #3, full grey: $2,670 -Existing 220v cable can not be spliced and extended. -New cable run has to go from panel to/through meter all the way to the top of my service pole where power company line meets my house. -Power Company is responsible for the line before the service pole and only the meter/can itself. I am responsible for everything else. -The cable in the service pole and service pole needs to be replaced in order to move my panel further away from current location. -See pic of service pole to be completey replaced: Other benefits of this option: -Service panel remains in garage which is good with kids in the house and I can avoid complaints about having to put a fake wall and picture around a new panel located in family room. -My current work location is on the flip side of current panel location in family room, I have shelves and stuff “where option 1” is. I would reconfigure my work station if needed but the more desirable option is to move my work station once into new studio. If you can’t tell already, I’m tired of doing the same job twice!!! :x Current Work Station, please excuse the mess I was not expecting company. Note on the right where my rack is, the shelves above holding printer would have to come down to install “option 1 panel” Wall of guitars to be relocated into new studio, note the ones on the ends are dead: These are not all my guitars, my gigging guitars are a 95 US Strat, a Godin SGX 3 voice guitar (PRS style double coil, acoustic & synth) and a Yamaha acoustic. Plus I got more hanging around, got 10 all togeher. The Dead Guitars: One died aboard British Airways, they snapped the neck off this Seagull Guitar got glued back together very well but it hangs on the wall now... The other one a Quest Guitar lasted 3 years of street performing all year round in my home town Halifax, Canada, one day the bridge just came off from moisture I presume… I played in the rain, the snow down to minus 20 degrees…and I made more money then anyone else in my High School with my part time job playing music and partying every weekend. I hope my son doesn’t turn out like me. OK, Back out to the sorting of concrete patio stones and playing with leveling sand. Marc

sharward wrote:

[url=http://greatstuff.dow.com/greatstuff/cons/biggap.htm[/url]those little cans you buy at Home Depot[/url]... -- I was talking about professionally installed stuff

Easy but can not be done by a DIY, you need a license to handle that stuff, my neighbor is looking at getting one. I'm set with my sand. :mrgreen:

Guitars in studio - I'm planning a SEPARATE storage area for that, due to RESONANCE. Keep in mind that pix in Mix, etc, are more EYE CANDY than reality - hence the stupid shots of horizontal NS-10's, acoustic guitars in the CR, etc... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Guitars in studio - I'm planning a SEPARATE storage area for that, due to RESONANCE. Keep in mind that pix in Mix, etc, are more EYE CANDY than reality - hence the stupid shots of horizontal NS-10's, acoustic guitars in the CR, etc... Steve

Yes I realize keeping them off the walls of studio will be a better thing, I have to think that through to the end... most of these guitars may stay where they are. You lost me with "NS-10's"??? EDIT, never mind question unless I am wrong: NS10 = Yamaha NS10 near field monitor. http://www.martianengineering.com/frames/NS10.html Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

Why upgrade to 200 amps? Main reason is relocating my service panel to a location further away from the meter will cost the same amount of money regardless of staying at 150 or upgrading to 200 amp switch.

Makes sense! Might as well if it's not that much more money. You'll be glad you did. It'll be a selling feature too if/when you sell.

. . . Option 1 Panel location has a problem [/b]with re-using that existing 220v cable. Neither Electrician #2 or #3 would even consider doing this as they were not sure if it would meet code. Electrician #1 did ask if I’d like to do it with out a permit.

Electrician #1 isn't a professional. Scratch him off the list and leave skid marks.

. . . if I did a electrical upgrade like this without a permit and then if my house burned down most likely I would not collect any insurance… that is just way to risky.

Right on.