Since the "major" problem seems to have been solved, I want to take a stab at explaining the "cleat" thing. Perhaps there should be a prize for the one that provides the explaination that clears the haze.
The dictionary defines (loosely) cleat as something that is attached to something else that is used to hold a third thing, for example, one of those anvil shaped things that is attached to the deck of a boat to hold a rope.
Ok, your specific case. I want you (either literally or figuratively) to stick your head through the floor joists, into the area between the joists and the dirt, and look at the bottom of the joists. Now, your joists are 2" wide (1 1/2" actually, but we'll use 2"). Imagine that you want to make a "T" that has a 4" wide top and a 2" wide vertical section. You'd have to take a 1x4 board, lay it on the 2" joist with 1" sticking out on either side of the joist. An upside-down "T." Can you picture that? Now, let's suppose you did that on two adjacent joists. If you looked down from the top of the joists (you can take your head back out of the hole), you'd see a 1" lip sticking out on each side. These are cleats. You could now lay some 1x1 or 1x2 boards between the joists and they would rest on these lips and would in turn, hold up the insulation. It would preform the same function as the string I was talking about, just using wood instead. The cleats are just the lips that the slats of wood would rest on.
How about that? Does that clear things up any?
len
Kathy's Barn Conversion!
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 5556.
Hey Kathy, I've been following your thread too. Nice job.
I am also impressed with everyone else's wealth of input... Steve is the man :!: 8)
I'm not going to try and explain anything cause I babble to much already :D
But... I've been thinking about this since you started this thread.
Your barn dimensions are 15' x 25', right :?:
I put your barn layout.pdf into a jpg below for easy viewing.
Am I presuming correctly that your dividing the space across the length and that you'll end up with a CR about 8' x 25' and Live room about 7' x 25', both rectangle shaped :?:
You are placing the speakers on the box marked mixer (desk) :?:
Just curious.
Marc
Insulation, vapor barriers, etc -
Removing the old wood made NO difference as to whether you needed a vapor barrier, or where it should be placed; it's just that when I realized your under-floor space had no ventilation, I started worrying about moisture problems. Whether or not the wood stayed on the dirt, moisture would rise into that space - so you needed a vapor barrier to stop it.
If you put that vapor barrier up against the floor, it would seal the entire area below the barrier and the entire area would remain humid. This is perfect conditions for rot/mold/mildew.
By placing the vapor barrier against the ground instead, you stop moisture from rising into the cavity from below; now, all you need to do is keep excessive moisture from traveling through the floor DOWNWARD, and to keep the humidity in that space (and the space ABOVE the floor) below 40%.
By not overlapping the tar paper layers and not using faced insulation, this leaves your entire floor SOMEWHAT permeable, which WITHOUT humidity control could cause problems, when the room heat drives moisture DOWN thru the floor and the vapor barrier on the ground TRAPS that moisture. Thus the need for mechanical means of keeping humidity low enough in the room - this will not only reduce the amount of moisture driven through the floor downward, it will allow the moisture level BELOW the floor to eventually normalize with that of the above-floor space, and everything should be happy.
Wood is NOT a vapor barrier; nor is gypsum wallboard, plywood, MDF, etc - although the paper on gypsum wallboard PARTIALLY acts as one, just not a very GOOD one. This is why it makes no difference whether you removed the old flooring or not from a moisture standpoint - my concern was just that, after sealing this area up, the wood would start to rot from lack of circulation and cause the REST of your construction to eventually follow suit.
These problems don't exist (for the most part) in so-called NORMAL construction, because of the ventilation as shown in the last sketch. But as I said in that sketch, it sucks for sound isolation.
The paper backed insulation you have can be used in your walls, so long as there is only ONE vapor barrier and it's on the INSIDE of the wall area, just under the wallboard. That insulation can also go in the ceiling, depending on how you do your ceiling for acoustics.
Cleats - if you looked at your bed rails, and they're typical, you saw what a cleat DOES - it forms a lip that will support the slats which run perpendicular to the long rails, so your mattress can rest on those slats and not fall through between the bed rails. Function-wise, the bed rails (the ones running from head to foot of the bed) are your floor joists, the extra small wood pieces fastened to the bottom of those rails would be your cleats, the slats holding your mattress from falling to the floor would be the slats you would run across between your joists near the bottom (supported by the cleats), and the mattress would be your insulation batts.
The cleats would be fastened to the bottom edges of your 2x6 joists with either 8d finish nails or with screws, and would run full length of each joist on both sides, except at the very edge where there's not room to put them on the outside of the outermost joist.
I noticed I'd forgotten to add the "X" across each board in the drawing to show that it's viewed from the END grain of the boards; I've replaced that drawing hopefully making that part more clear. Anywhere you see an "X" inside a brown rectangle, that means you're looking at the END of a board that's stretching AWAY from you, as opposed to the SIDE of a board, or the TOP. Oh, and all the GREEN things are nails or screws - I've just settled on those particular colors (along with aqua for gypsum and gray for metal, etc) for all sketches I draw.
The staples and string method MIGHT hold, but I've never trusted staples that weren't at least an inch long - normal staple guns (T50 type) can only use 9/16" staples MAXIMUM, and since the staples would be supporting weight that's trying to EXTRACT them from the wood, I personally wouldn't trust them to do the job considering you are trying to CRUSH the insulation against the floor for damping. (Len, thanks for the cymbal analogy, btw) - I might be overly cautious about the staples/string thing, but once the floor's in place you can't go back and fix it if the insulation falls away from contact with the floor :cry:
If the floor joists were further from the ground, you would have enough room to swing a hammer and could use the pallet strapping/roof nail method which IS strong enough to keep good "crush" on the insulation, but it doesn't look like they ARE that far above ground. That's why I suggested the cleat system, which I'm hoping is becoming a bit clearer by now... Another way that would be possible if your friend has a Palm Nailer, would be to use the string but fasten with roofing nails. A palm nailer has a tight enough working headroom that it should work to drive roof nails UP into the BOTTOMS of the floor joists.
palm nailer
This is the one I have; it came packaged with my framing nailer, and works really well; you just hook up to an air compressor, hold it against the head of a nail (there's a hollow place in the end) and it drives the nail, slow enough so you can stop before the nail is completely flush, so you could wrap string around the head of the nail.
The pieces of 2x6 your asked about that run across the joists every so often are called blocking in this part of the country; other terms are "noggins", "cats", "stringers", depending on which part of the world you're in. but they aren't called cleats, because they're not really supporting anything so much as "spacing" or "blocking" your joists so they don't move sideways or twist.
I hope this helps clarify things; go back and look at the "cleat" drawing now that I've shown which boards are end-wise, maybe that will help... Steve
Gawd, I HOPE Kathy's NOT doing that Marc; if that space gets divided at all, it should be the OTHER way - otherwise you end up with effectively two HALLWAYS, really long and narrow; an acoustic nono full of slap echo, flutter, etc... I never noticed that part yet, but hope it's not the case. It would be better to leave it all one room rather than do that... Steve
Yup Steve, but lets let Kathy confirm that's the layout before someone besides me makes a suggestion. She has spent a lot of time figuring out cable runs with PVC pipe & more. :)
Kathy, have you looked here:
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... /Plans.htm
and
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
Marc
Thanks Marc for visiting the thread and following along. Thanks too for being caring enough to think about my layout and bring it into the jpg form that you did.Hey Kathy, I've been following your thread too. Nice job. I am also impressed with everyone else's wealth of input... Steve is the man :!: 8) I'm not going to try and explain anything cause I babble to much already :D But... I've been thinking about this since you started this thread. Your barn dimensions are 15' x 25', right :?: I put your barn layout.pdf into a jpg below for easy viewing.
Am I presuming correctly that your dividing the space across the length and that you'll end up with a CR about 8' x 25' and Live room about 7' x 25', both rectangle shaped :?:
Yeah, those are my dimensions. What's the problem??? LOL!!!!!! JUST KIDDING! No, you are both wrong, thank goodness. It is divided the OTHER way. My drawing is very bad. It does look like the 25 feet runs left to right but that's not the case. I told you I was bad with drawings and "visualizations". The 25 feet is the length of the barn (north and south), 15 is the width. Both the live room and control room will share the 15 feet width - closer to under 14 feet actually because of the new wall we are building on one side. You can stop panicking now. :-) I really should try my hand at another drawing to be more accurate. Ok, back to Steve's other long post that I skipped to give this response....be backGawd, I HOPE Kathy's NOT doing that Marc; if that space gets divided at all, it should be the OTHER way - otherwise you end up with effectively two HALLWAYS, really long and narrow; an acoustic nono full of slap echo, flutter, etc... I never noticed that part yet, but hope it's not the case. It would be better to leave it all one room rather than do that... Steve
First of all, let me say that this most recent post cleared MUCH of the cobwebs for me, Steve. I can just about say I'm on board with it now. I'm starting to feel relief. Let me address some points you made.
Thank you. That's what I needed to know. Answer = Pulling up the floor made no difference in my events. I would have needed to lay that plastic anyways. Ironically, since I did not know any of this, I would NOT have laid the plastic down if the floor was still there. I was already moving past that with my PVC piping and insulation. A very important step would have been skipped and pulling up the floor brought it into the limelight by accident.Insulation, vapor barriers, etc - Removing the old wood made NO difference as to whether you needed a vapor barrier, or where it should be placed; it's just that when I realized your under-floor space had no ventilation, I started worrying about moisture problems. Whether or not the wood stayed on the dirt, moisture would rise into that space - so you needed a vapor barrier to stop it... Wood is NOT a vapor barrier; nor is gypsum wallboard, plywood, MDF, etc - although the paper on gypsum wallboard PARTIALLY acts as one, just not a very GOOD one. This is why it makes no difference whether you removed the old flooring or not from a moisture standpoint - my concern was just that, after sealing this area up, the wood would start to rot from lack of circulation and cause the REST of your construction to eventually follow suit.
A confirmation that my decision to NOT use the kraft backed insulation anywhere, in any part of the floor is a solid one.If you put that vapor barrier up against the floor, it would seal the entire area below the barrier and the entire area would remain humid. This is perfect conditions for rot/mold/mildew.
Ok, good. I shall put it aside. When it is time to tackle walls and ceilings I'll have it and I'll check in before comitting it somewhere.The paper backed insulation you have can be used in your walls, so long as there is only ONE vapor barrier and it's on the INSIDE of the wall area, just under the wallboard. That insulation can also go in the ceiling, depending on how you do your ceiling for acoustics.
Ok, the light is coming on regarding cleats and the suspension system I need. I'll be honest, as hard as len-morgan tried to explain it to me in the previous post (an upside down T), I wasn't getting it and was embarassed to come back and say so, yet again. But then when Steve wrote this post it started to click. The use of the word "bottom" had confused me. I was thinking I had to attach to the true bottom of the joist as in underneath, not the lower edges of each joist. I also didn't get that these would run full length. I thought they were little pieces of wood attached every foot or two and then slats laid on them somehow. The full length vision, attached to the LOWER edges of the joists now is in my minds eye. Also, adding the "X" to the drawing made a huge difference. I looked at it before as the TOPS of the joists, not the ends. I think I have it now. Geez.....thanks for sticking with me. I was about to just say "I got it" when I really didn't to save face.The cleats would be fastened to the bottom edges of your 2x6 joists with either 8d finish nails or with screws, and would run full length of each joist on both sides, except at the very edge where there's not room to put them on the outside of the outermost joist. I noticed I'd forgotten to add the "X" across each board in the drawing to show that it's viewed from the END grain of the boards; I've replaced that drawing hopefully making that part more clear. Anywhere you see an "X" inside a brown rectangle, that means you're looking at the END of a board that's stretching AWAY from you, as opposed to the SIDE of a board, or the TOP. Oh, and all the GREEN things are nails or screws - I've just settled on those particular colors (along with aqua for gypsum and gray for metal, etc) for all sketches I draw.
Well, I was real happy with that solution but partly because I wasn't grasping anything else. I'll have to think about this some more.The staples and string method MIGHT hold, but I've never trusted staples that weren't at least an inch long - normal staple guns (T50 type) can only use 9/16" staples MAXIMUM, and since the staples would be supporting weight that's trying to EXTRACT them from the wood, I personally wouldn't trust them to do the job considering you are trying to CRUSH the insulation against the floor for damping. (Len, thanks for the cymbal analogy, btw) - I might be overly cautious about the staples/string thing, but once the floor's in place you can't go back and fix it if the insulation falls away from contact with the floor :cry:
The floor joists are 8 - 12 inches off the ground. They look high but not high enough to swing a hammer underneath as you said. I do have another problem though, I think. To attach the cleats according to your picture would mean swinging a hammer in between the joists to get those 8d nails in, right? Are my joists supposed to be 24 OC because they are not. They are 16 OC and I don't think I can swing a hammer in between to attach the cleats. Your palm nailer looks awesome but I don't think he has one (I'll ask for sure) and so far we haven't used any air compression tools here (he has all that stuff at home and I don't know if he was planning on transporting it here or not). Without a palm nailer what are my choices? Perhaps I could stick my drill in between the joists and use screws to attach the cleats? Yes? What would you suggest for screw size and type?If the floor joists were further from the ground, you would have enough room to swing a hammer and could use the pallet strapping/roof nail method which IS strong enough to keep good "crush" on the insulation, but it doesn't look like they ARE that far above ground. That's why I suggested the cleat system, which I'm hoping is becoming a bit clearer by now...
Thank you for answering that as well. Blockers or spacers they are from here on in. One more terminology question: You previously said "rip some cleats". I assume rip means cut or create? Same as when one would say "rip a dvd"?The pieces of 2x6 your asked about that run across the joists every so often are called blocking in this part of the country; other terms are "noggins", "cats", "stringers", depending on which part of the world you're in. but they aren't called cleats, because they're not really supporting anything so much as "spacing" or "blocking" your joists so they don't move sideways or twist.
Yes, it is making much more sense now. Thanks so much for sticking with me. Please let me know about my problem above if you can - I don't think I have the space to use a hammer and should use a drill and screws. What kind?I hope this helps clarify things; go back and look at the "cleat" drawing now that I've shown which boards are end-wise, maybe that will help... Steve
I'm heading out to the barn today to put in a day's work. I'll be preparing the floor for the plastic (it needs sweeping of all the dirt that is loose from the old boards and there is junk and wood scraps everywhere).
:?: I have an important question before I do this:
I bought a piece of plastic sheeting that is 10x25 which is close to the size of my barn. But this isn't as simple as sliding it under the new floor joists and laying it out.
Down the center of the barn are 5 cement posts we poured. Same on the right side of the barn. I will have to cut the plastic to fit around these. In fact, I'm thinking it is best to slice the plastic in two and lay it down on each side of the middle posts.
My concern is - HOW ANAL do we have to be about complete coverage? In other words, there may be some TINY gaps around the cement posts that won't be fully covered, is that alright? Must it be airtight - militant airtight?
Also, can I double up on the plastic? I'm thinking maybe instead of cutting it I can just fold it in half and lay it on one side of the floor. Buy another one, fold it in half too, and lay it on the other side of the floor. Try to attach the two together in the middle around those cement posts with some tape.
I'd like to do this today so if anyone has some answers ASAP that would be greatly appreciated.
Well, it looks like Knightfly gets the prize for coming up with the explaination that finally "turned on the light." Do I at least get an honorable mention? :-)
As to the immediate problem (the cement posts), I'm pretty sure that you do in fact have to be "anal" about covering up the dirt even around the posts. It doesn't have to hold water like a kids' swimming pool but close.
My suggestion would be to either cut the sheet in half or get a second sheet like you suggested. You want to cut the edge of one of them so that when they get to the posts you can lay the cuts around the posts crudely and tape the two pieces together.
Then take some pretty good garbage bags (the black Hefty Leaf Bag type) and cut up ONE SIDE of the bag and along the bottom. This will give you a small "sheet" which you could wrap around the post, tape to the plastic at the bottom and then tape around the post. I'm not sure what kind of tape to use. Duct tape would probably work but I think they make tape for this purpose (it may be rebranded duct tape though).
Hope that helps a little.
len
Of course you do. :wink: Anyone that takes the time to try and reach inside of this hard head of mine gets honorable mention. I'm sorry that I didn't understand your explanation either but it was mostly due to being on the wrong track to begin with.Well, it looks like Knightfly gets the prize for coming up with the explaination that finally "turned on the light." Do I at least get an honorable mention? :-)
:sigh: I guess I knew that. I just didn't want to hear it!As to the immediate problem (the cement posts), I'm pretty sure that you do in fact have to be "anal" about covering up the dirt even around the posts. It doesn't have to hold water like a kids' swimming pool but close.
Helps a lot. Good ideas. Unless anyone objects or has anything else to add, this will be my course today. I'll go buy a second sheet as well as a small box of heavy duty Hefty bags and get to work. Maybe THEN I can get back to laying down the PVC and resuming my confusing cable runs??? I wonder if the floor will even be nailed down by March..... So far, I've refused Scott's services for 3 weeks now so as not to waste his time. Looks like he's off the hook again this Wednesday while I try to get us back up to the securing of the plywood stage.My suggestion would be to either cut the sheet in half or get a second sheet like you suggested. You want to cut the edge of one of them so that when they get to the posts you can lay the cuts around the posts crudely and tape the two pieces together. Then take some pretty good garbage bags (the black Hefty Leaf Bag type) and cut up ONE SIDE of the bag and along the bottom. This will give you a small "sheet" which you could wrap around the post, tape to the plastic at the bottom and then tape around the post. I'm not sure what kind of tape to use. Duct tape would probably work but I think they make tape for this purpose (it may be rebranded duct tape though). Hope that helps a little. len
You have to look on the bright side. When you go back to PVC and cables, you go back with a lot more knowledge than you had before (granted, not necessarily in the subject at hand though :-( ) I've found that when I got stumped or stopped for some reason, when I got back to what ever I was doing, I had a better idea on how to do it.
len
Agreed. I enjoy learning, too. I just wish I had some more physical hands to move things along faster. I'm still contemplating hiring a couple of laborers for a day here and there to do quickly what would take me longer to do. Maybe a father/son team or a couple of brothers who have an ad in the local town paper. One days work from people like that could suddenly find all my walls up or my insulation in, etc... I would be watching and supervising of course....with full instructions that came from my reading here. The only disadvantage of having someone come along every now and again to bump things up is that I lose the pride of being hands on myself. I guess I have to decide what means more to me - doing it myself or having it done quicker. Or I suppose I could work along with whomever I hire for the day. That would be great experience and would allow me to really keep an eye on the guidelines we need to follow. We'll see..... Can't do anything like that until Scott and I button down the floor and are ready for the next phase though.You have to look on the bright side. When you go back to PVC and cables, you go back with a lot more knowledge than you had before (granted, not necessarily in the subject at hand though :-( ) I've found that when I got stumped or stopped for some reason, when I got back to what ever I was doing, I had a better idea on how to do it. len
Having gone through this myself, I don't think there is any "shame" in having help. I tried to move/cut/mount 5/8" drywall myself when the guy helping me couldn't come by and help. What I ended up with was broken sheets of DW, damaged corners, unlevel joints (because I couldn't hold up a sheet and screw it down at the same time. These mistakes were taken down and I just waited until the help WAS available. While I could have done it all myself and taken the credit, I would have ended up with a piece of crap that wouldn't have been terribly useful when it was done anyway.
Remember that you are looking for MORE hands, not replacements for your own. We have ALL had a little help with the heavy lifting whether we admit it or not so no one is going to think any less of you or your efforts if you do the same. You shouldn't either. :-)
len
Kathy, I hope I'm not too late on this - do NOT use garbage bags to "patch" around your concrete footings - these days, several brands of these are now "bio-degradable" - the ironic thing is, at least one thing I read says that they will NOT degrade when BURIED (as in, "land fill" :roll: ) but WILL degrade when exposed to AIR...
Just cut your plastic into strips that are the width of your open ground area PLUS the width of BOTH rows of concrete footers, then trim out around each footer and OVERLAP the plastic where the footers are NOT. Then after all pieces are laid out, use good quality duct tape and SEAL the seams, also tape the plastic AROUND each concrete footer (what you call posts) and you're good.
Sorry 'bout the little "X" booboo, usually pretty good about that.\
Here's your plastic plan... Steve
Kathy,
I'm sorry for suggesting the garbage bags. I only knew about biodegradable Pampers and didn't think they'd be appropriate. Knightfly's approach is better if for no other reason than it might actually work!
len
Dunno, len, I haven't had pampers tested at Riverbank labs; we might ALL be missing something here :wink: - no need for apology, we're ALL learning here and what escapes one person might be caught by another.
Kathy, please, please, do NOT forego a question because you think you're dumb, or should have gotten it already, etc - I will NEVER, NEVER intentionally try to make someone feel dumb or inadequate for not getting something the first time, NOR will I allow anyone ELSE to do that here - if I have to, I will even BAN people for taking that attitude if a gentle reminder doesn't get the point across. Nobody EVER learned as well when being picked on as when being supported, and if you don't get something the first time it's more likely MY fault for not presenting it as clearly as I should.
Bottom line, until you FULLY understand things please don't stop asking; my goal here is your happiness with your project, and that ain't gonna happen if communications break down... Steve
You're not too late. Haven't gotten that far yet. BUT.....Kathy, I hope I'm not too late on this - do NOT use garbage bags to "patch" around your concrete footings - these days, several brands of these are now "bio-degradable" - the ironic thing is, at least one thing I read says that they will NOT degrade when BURIED (as in, "land fill" :roll: ) but WILL degrade when exposed to AIR...
I hate to sound like a broken record.....you have no idea how much this pains me to write this. But I can't "SEE" it. I'm so sorry. I'm not understanding. The best I can grasp it is that - in YOUR drawing - there would be SIX strips of plastic. 2 would lay with the underseams and 4 would lay with the overseams. Am I right about that? I desperately tried to make my own to help visualize but I don't think it's going to help much. I'll put it up here anyways. In mine, I would need 4 pieces to lay with underseams covered by 5 pieces with overseams. ????? The other question is you say to "trim around them". Remember, the new floor is built already and sitting on top of these footers. I can't cut a hole out of the plastic and slide it over the footer. The joists prevent that. I would have to cut just one large slit and slide the plastic around the footer.Just cut your plastic into strips that are the width of your open ground area PLUS the width of BOTH rows of concrete footers, then trim out around each footer and OVERLAP the plastic where the footers are NOT.
That part I understand A-OK. Here's my attempt at the plastic plan. Am I getting this concept at all? Did I understand you at all?Then after all pieces are laid out, use good quality duct tape and SEAL the seams, also tape the plastic AROUND each concrete footer (what you call posts) and you're good.
Looks good; basically, you would just cut several strips of plastic that are each wide enough to cover the ground between two rows of the footers, PLUS enough to reach to the OTHER side of each footer. Then, lay every other strip down so it's bunched up against the footers on both sides, trim away (or split) the plastic where each footer gets in the way, and then do all the strips BETWEEN the strips you first laid down. (Do strips 1-3-5-7... - trim around the footers, then Do strips 2-4-6-8... - trim around the footers, tape EVERYTHING. Done.
You know you're done when you can't see anything under there but black plastic and duct tape, with cement footers sticking up between.
Doesn't have to be perfect, in fact if you plan on having ANY plumbing in the place you should actually LEAVE part of one of the seams UNTAPED, so any "accidents" have a way to drain out... Steve
Somehow, the wording here made a connection that your last explanation didn't. I understand it better now (again). For some reason, the first time you attempt to visualize something for me I can't get it. But when the words are picked even more carefully something clicks. The key to the plastic application is the order in which the strips go down and are alternated, yes? I have touched up your original drawing to attempt to show the order in which each layer is put down in a way that achieves the over and under seam coverage as desired. I think this is right.cut several strips of plastic that are each wide enough to cover the ground between two rows of the footers, PLUS enough to reach to the OTHER side of each footer. Then, lay every other strip down so it's bunched up against the footers on both sides, trim away (or split) the plastic where each footer gets in the way, and then do all the strips BETWEEN the strips you first laid down. (Do strips 1-3-5-7... - trim around the footers, then Do strips 2-4-6-8... - trim around the footers,
So do I 8)
Sooo, what you're saying is that I should always post my SECOND response first??!? :wink:
I can do that...
OK, now I hafta kill myself; violated my own rule about no levity. Damn... :cry:
Steve, saw this post of yours on the Design Forum:
I started my project not knowing this info. The new subfloor is 16 OC. Does your statement apply to floors or are you mostly talking about walls? So, this is my cue to make sure that when we start framing the inner wall and control room wall that it is to be done 24 OC, I presume? What about the small vocal booth I am creating? Can that be framed with the smaller 16 spacing or no?Also, 16" centers for sound construction are a waste of time and money, you actually get better iso using 24" centers. Only exception to that would be for a ceiling, where you don't have enough headroom for the next size UP in joists, and can't span the space using 24" centers...
Kathy,
The operative word/phrase from Knightfly's quote is "better for isolation" (paraphrased). I reread the first couple of posts you put up here and while you did mention you have neighbors close by, you didn't think they'd be a problem.
What you DIDN'T mention is what kind of music you're going to be recording in here. To a large extent, that will determine if you need the extra isolation. Since you also mentioned that you didn't think the ceiling would support 2 layers of drywall added to it, I suspect that if isolation from the neighbors is going to be a problem, it will be noise from the roof more than noise from the floor.
Somewhat off the topic at hand, you mentioned in your first post that you KNEW you'd have to deal with HVAC but you were going to put off thinking about it until later. Might I suggest that while you have the floor open, you might think about it now since I don't think you'll be able to get to the floor again after you put down the plywood.
I'm sure someone will jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong but you might want to at a minimum run flexible INSULATED ducting under the floor for the return ducts at least. It's pretty cheap (25' for under $25 for 8'). I probably over did mine (2 supply lines and 2 returns in the main room AND the control room, a single supply line and return line in the drum room, and a supply/return 6' pair for the vocal booth. I added a supply/return pair for the office/hallway area just in case).
As I'm sure you've read here, soundproof=air tight so ventalation is also important. HVAC systems usually skip the "V" part and just heat/cool the same stale air over and over again. Previously our homes were so leaky that we didn't have to think about fresh air because it would find it's way under doors and around windows, electrical boxes, etc.
Most houses have only supply vents in the rooms and one big return vent usually right near the HVAC system but the air can return under the doors which hopefully won't happen in your rooms so you'll need the returns in the rooms.
To maintain your isolation, you'll want to run SEPARATE flex ducts from each of the rooms all the way to the HVAC system. In other words you DON'T want a single line with "taps" off it at each room. Doing it this way will allow the sound travel from one room to the next through the ducts.
You don't need to "design" the whole system right now but putting this ducting in the floor now while it's "easy" will save you some work later.
Some things you just can't postpone.
len
Hi Len, Yeah, you're right. The point about 16 vs 24 on the floor is a tiny one. In fact, the only real benefit I would have liked is that it would have allowed me to have more "room" and "space" to play around in between the joists - for things like laying out the cabling and PVC pipes and even for creating the cleat suspension systems and installing the insulation. More room between joists would have been a lot easier for all of the above applications that are currently in progress. It's tight to work in that space as of right now. In terms of sound isolation, I'm pretty confident that the floor build will be quite sufficient enough with double layers of everything and all the applied techniques learned here. The control room will be isolated even more so than the live room as I intend to build a ceiling over it. The live room will host yet another "room within a room" - mini version - once the vocal iso booth is up. That just leaves the remaining open area of the live room and the drum riser sitting at the opposite corner from the vocal booth. In my case, we are building yet another baby subfloor on on top of this one that will act as a drum riser. The drums themselves are NOT acoustic which nips this all in the bud right there. They are the stunning 12 piece flagship kit from Hart Dynamics. I just love these things and can't say enough about them. They blow the Roland kits away in style and presentation. Real wood maple shells with black lacquer finish on the toms and kick - a refreshing step up from the rubber pads still being used on many of the top of the line custom kits out there. These will be the house drums and therefore, I will not have to build a true drum iso booth. We are just creating a riser and then building a 3 foot high half wall in the corner around the whole area to cage them in. The top of that short wall will be a 2 foot wide ledge to hold a flat screen monitor directly in front of me and the Pro Tools 002 Console for tracking basic tracks when I'm alone. I've included the manufacturer's picture of the kit for those who may never have seen or heard of them. Fantastic company, too. The President himself called me over a rare incident involving a DOA dual trigger bell cymbal. One of the motivations for me to originally buy from them was his personal views and beliefs as both a businessman and an experienced drum scholar. His powerful words, humbly tucked away on the right hand side of the home page in a small clickable banner reading "Warning - What You Should Know" is what hooked me. If you're looking to make a quality purchase in the drum area check out their site at: http://www.hartdynamics.com Sorry to get off topic a bit. No, I don't work for them. I just have very strong feelings on certain matters in general and when I'm sold on something and get behind it, I'm very passionate. Which is why I'm also a typical diehard Mac fanatic too. :wink: I'm going to address the HVAC issue in the next post.Kathy, The operative word/phrase from Knightfly's quote is "better for isolation" (paraphrased). I reread the first couple of posts you put up here and while you did mention you have neighbors close by, you didn't think they'd be a problem. What you DIDN'T mention is what kind of music you're going to be recording in here. To a large extent, that will determine if you need the extra isolation. Since you also mentioned that you didn't think the ceiling would support 2 layers of drywall added to it, I suspect that if isolation from the neighbors is going to be a problem, it will be noise from the roof more than noise from the floor.
We must be on the same wave length. I have been thinking about this over the last 12 hours or so. I confess, I stayed up most of the night last night and have not gone to bed. I spent many hours reading the forum here. I really do need to put in some preliminary measures for the heat/air/vent solution. I'm REALLY in the dark about this though. Very confused on what is needed. I have not started to look at what types of machines are available and in what budget. I don't really know HOW to prepare for something I'm not even sure is going to look/act like. Since I will have two rooms (control and live) I guess I will need two systems? Or one system that works both rooms - do they call that a split? I can leave out the vocal booth because I will just leave the door open and it truly will not be used that much. Is it safe to say I am looking at something like room air conditioners? - space heaters? - how does the venting work? I have not read much on the HVAC subject here on the forum yet. Still getting thru the other subject matter. I will do some searches though and will get some knowledge under my belt. In the meantime, I've got to have some quick basics if I'm going to lay possible groundwork under the floor for this "imaginary" system that, once again, I cannot "see" in my mind yet.Somewhat off the topic at hand, you mentioned in your first post that you KNEW you'd have to deal with HVAC but you were going to put off thinking about it until later. Might I suggest that while you have the floor open, you might think about it now since I don't think you'll be able to get to the floor again after you put down the plywood.
**Ok, for my setup - what EXACTLY should I run?** •Insulated ducting comes in what sizes and brands and what exactly should I use? •One supply line and one return line for each room is good enough for me, yes? •Should I throw a return and supply in the vocal booth anyway? •Do I secure it with bracing or anything or just lay it on top of the plastic?I'm sure someone will jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong but you might want to at a minimum run flexible INSULATED ducting under the floor for the return ducts at least. It's pretty cheap (25' for under $25 for 8'). I probably over did mine (2 supply lines and 2 returns in the main room AND the control room, a single supply line and return line in the drum room, and a supply/return 6' pair for the vocal booth. I added a supply/return pair for the office/hallway area just in case).
But where will that be? How do I know that now? Can you maybe tell me what these "units" look like, how big, how many, and where they are "most likely" to go? I can make an educated guess as to where the install will be and run the ducts there and hope for the best. I am having a subpanel of electricity put in this spring so one of the breakers could end up being dedicated for this???To maintain your isolation, you'll want to run SEPARATE flex ducts from each of the rooms all the way to the HVAC system.
I completely agree and your timing is perfect. So, if we can figure out the answers to my questions I can approach this with some confidence.You don't need to "design" the whole system right now but putting this ducting in the floor now while it's "easy" will save you some work later. Some things you just can't postpone. len
Kathy,
jeebus, looks like you are in deep!! several things to help you out:
in terms of selling those historic floor boards:
http://www.traditional-building.com/RTE ... ctions.htm
several company names with contact details that specialize in preserving or restoring historic valued structures, such as the famous new england red barns.
the other source I can think of would be local architects where you live.
if all else fails: go Ebay. if they can sell britney spears' chewed out gum from awards shows, you sure as hell can sell antique wood!!