Kathy,
If you look in the phone book or talk to your local lumber supplier, they'll tell you who buys antique wood. I've seen a couple of places on "This Old House" when they've wanted old floor boards or a table top or something.
If other houses in your area are of the same age, you might be able to convince your neighbors to let you pull up their old barn boards (not letting on the value of course). :-)
len
Kathy's Barn Conversion!
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 5556.
Just be VERY careful when or if you go to pull more wires at a later date. In my line of work, if you think you might pull more cables later on, you pull them now. Having spare wires in conduit is never going to hurt, but trying to pull through a conduit with wires already in it can possibly cause damage to the wires. If you plan on pulling more wires at a later date, don't use the metal fish tape like I showed you, buy a fiberglass one. The only thing is, fiberglass is way more expensive. I'm sure you can rent one though from somewhere near you. The reason I'm recommending a fiberglass tape is because metal has a tendancy to cut pre-existing wires as it slides by. Also, the tip on the metal ones are traditionally just a loop of metal, and unless you tape it up right, if the tape gets stuck and you want to pull it back, it will loop itself around wires and you'll have to cut the fish tape off and you just lost half your tape... :) Also, do yourself a favor and DO NOT PUT ELECTRICAL TAPE OR TAPE OF ANY KIND AROUND THE WIRES BEFORE YOU PULL THEM INTO THE CONDUIT. I can't stress that one enough. The wires will be in conduit, they don't need to be neatly taped together. If you want to be able to push a tape in in the future and pull more wires, if there's tape on the wires that are in the conduit, forget about getting more in there. This is very important. You can always buy a fiberglass fish tape later if you want to pull more wires in, but putting tape on the wires will prevent you from ever getting more wires in, so I just want to make sure you're REALLY leaving yourself the option for more wires later on. And don't let a "half full" conduit fool you, once there are wires in that conduit it gets very difficult to get more in.That sounds like exactly what I'll need when I'm all done and there's an extra cable or two I'll want to add to the system after I'm up and running. I'm leaving room in the tubes as well as a couple of extra spares for future expansion. I'll run some string anyways to have it there but it sounds like the fish tape will do what I need to if the time comes. Thanks for explaining it to me.
I don't have any experience pulling through conduit, yet I was thinking the same thing -- a bundle of wires taped end-to-end would seem to be more difficult (if not impossible) to pull vs. a bundle of individual wires taped only at the leading end.. . . do yourself a favor and DO NOT PUT ELECTRICAL TAPE OR TAPE OF ANY KIND AROUND THE WIRES BEFORE YOU PULL THEM INTO THE CONDUIT.
It's funny how things work out sometimes... ever since I was 18 years old I've wanted to make a living recording people in my studio. But in the meantime I went to college and got a job. It's funny what you'll learn while you're waiting to do what you really want to do when you grow up. :) I'm still not recording people for a living... but I'm getting there, and my studio is almost finished after about 6 years of construction.I don't have any experience pulling through conduit
Hi guys,
Did I scare everyone away with the magnitude of my project? The notion of turning that barn into a fully functional recording studio with just two pairs of hands, one of them attached to a sometimes ignorant female? :roll:
I hope I haven't overwhelmed you all just yet.
I just wanted to check in today and see if there might be some answers on a couple of previous questions I threw out there.
They kind of got lost and overlooked in one of my rather lengthy posts.
They are as follows:
:?: Question #1 (regarding adding yellow insulation to pink insulation to acheive the 20% crush needed from top to bottom of cavity):
Insulation - you're using 2x6 joists, right? If so, I'd assumed you had not very thick insulation (re: the pix) - so what I meant was, you would need more than one layer of insulation to over-fill your joist cavities, so that the insulation would push up against the bottom of the floor and damp any resonances. If you use a second layer of insulation, that would give you TWO places where the kraft paper would end up and that's NOT GOOD, either acoustically or "moisturally" as it would trap moisture, most likely just where it DOESN'T need to be...... So, if I'm right and your insulation blankets are NOT thick enough to stick up ABOVE the floor joists before putting the plywood/OSB down, then you need MORE fill in the floor in order to make the insulation stay snugly in contact with the OSB, thereby damping the floor against resonating. With the "fluffy stuff" type of insulation, between 15-20% "crush" is what you want.
:?: Question #2 (regarding the exact method of laying down and attaching the plywood to the floorjoists):The entire space from old floor to new floor should be filled/stuffed with insulation and there should be NO air space? That makes sense to me in terms of plain old insulation and keeping out the heat and cold, nevermind about sound. It seems as though only one strip of insulation couldn't do the job when it's so far above the old floor. So, if this is true this is GOOD news. It means I did NOT buy enough insulation to do the floor joists at all. Can I sorta correct my mistake by purchasing the yellow fluffy stuff now? Can that be the bottom layer that lays on the barn floor and then the pink stuff with paper backing lay on top of that? That would be ideal if I could still use my pink stuff and only add an order of non-backed yellow stuff to add to it to fill the cavity completely.
You'll want to put the first layer down using construction adhesive between joists and OSB PLUS nails (better yet, screws properly sunk) - this will minimise any rattles/vibrations/squeaks. Same with the second layer, only just glue the T&G joints themselves, and stripes of adhesive over each joist location - this allows each layer to maintain its own coincidence frequency, which helps with damping a bit.
We used #8 nails. Is this not sufficient? Do we have to use screws? I prefer screws but is it a matter of taste or is there a reason why we should use one over the other? ......What kind of construction adhesive to use (brand, style) and is it only one strip where the board is going to lay over the joist? Second layer, the adhesive on the T&G and over each joist? Do I use the adhesive on the T&G of the first layer too? Any nails or screws on the second layer?[ I love your commitment to communication and attention to detail. I am the same way. Could you just lay it out in steps for me again as if I were a monkey that needed to know EVERY small thing on how to lay and secure the floor? Specifically, the differences between layer one and layer two. That would help me tremendously to not be confused.
I did just want to mention that I was thinking about your conduit problem today, and if it's not too late (ie, if you still have total access to your conduits) you should replace the PVC pipe elbows with actual electrical conduit elbows. I was talking about it with a fellow electrician today at work and we both came to the conclusion that you may not even be able to get a fish tape through.
Hmmm....yeah, I could still do it. I have not gotten much further in the past week. Sidetracked a bit with pulling up a few floorboards.... By pulling a few loose I've been able to "upgrade" some of the tubes to the next larger size because there's more room in the floor. I have more 3" and 4" tunnels now than before and those elbows are pretty easy to work with. However, the 2" ones could be tight as you say. I've got a bag full of elbows and can bring those back for the electrical conduit ones as you suggest. Those will fit over the PVC pipes the same? I'll seriously consider doing that. Thanks for thinking of me again.I did just want to mention that I was thinking about your conduit problem today, and if it's not too late (ie, if you still have total access to your conduits) you should replace the PVC pipe elbows with actual electrical conduit elbows. I was talking about it with a fellow electrician today at work and we both came to the conclusion that you may not even be able to get a fish tape through.
:D Hello from another studio owner who envies you for your tenacious courage to build your own from scratch...?
The studio I have is located in a commercial office building so when I view your progress with carefully documented steps and challenges; I'm amazed! At the same time, I wish I were actually much closer to your project than just as a spectator! Having built several rooms within rooms, I have learned a thing or two, but have barely scratched the surface. Watching your progress brings it all home and makes it realistic all over again!
Why? I am itching to build another studio; a bigger one than I have now. One that has a minimum of two seperate sound rooms and a video production room to boot all placed around a common control room.
Thanks for giving us an opportunity to be a part of your construction. May your challenges be smaller and worry free in the coming days!
Michael
Once you see the elbows for electrical conduit you'll see what I'm saying with the being more of a sweep than a 90 and you'll probably want to switch all the old elbows out with them.
I've never tried gluing sweeps to PVC pipe, but I think they're both the same thickness. You'll need to buy couplers too so you can attach the elbow to the pipe. If the elbows you buy have a "bell" end, you'll only need one coupler per eblow.
When you go to buy the stuff ask someone who knows what he's talking about so he can illustrate how it all works.
good luck. :)
Hi Michael, Thanks for reading my studio thread, I appreciate it. I wish you were closer too! I could use all the help I can get. So, since you've learned a thing or two as you stated, feel free to pass on all that knowledge at your convenience. I just know that I'm walking thru this blind as a bat and without a cane. So, I'm relying on everyone here at the message boards to be my seeing eye dogs! Thank YOU guys for being part of my construction. The pleasure is all mine to invite you into my project.:D Hello from another studio owner who envies you for your tenacious courage to build your own from scratch...? The studio I have is located in a commercial office building so when I view your progress with carefully documented steps and challenges; I'm amazed! At the same time, I wish I were actually much closer to your project than just as a spectator! Having built several rooms within rooms, I have learned a thing or two, but have barely scratched the surface. Watching your progress brings it all home and makes it realistic all over again! Why? I am itching to build another studio; a bigger one than I have now. One that has a minimum of two seperate sound rooms and a video production room to boot all placed around a common control room. Thanks for giving us an opportunity to be a part of your construction. May your challenges be smaller and worry free in the coming days! Michael
Gotcha. Haven't gotten to the hardware store yet to continue on with the cabling and pipes. Got sidetracked with the floor situation and the ever looming question, "Do I pull it up or not?' As you'll see below, I couldn't resist the chance to frustrate myself some more. :wink: And so the saga continues....Once you see the elbows for electrical conduit you'll see what I'm saying with the being more of a sweep than a 90 and you'll probably want to switch all the old elbows out with them...
Phase 1a.1: Pulling Up The Original Floor.
(or as I like to call it, "stopping forward progress to go back and do something that should have been done first".)
•Pulling Up the Old Barn Floor ie. (doing things out of order)
Well, after our conversations in here I thought I'd give pulling up the old floor slats a try. I tugged on one or two and left it to go get ready for my Super Bowl Party.
My building buddy, Scott, came over and I "mentioned" it to him. He wasn't too enthused but more importantly, he really thought we'd be losing a layer of protection seeing as there is only dirt underneath in some areas.
I decided I had enough to contend with in this project without dealing with this. So, I decided not to do it.
Fast forward to this week. Scott is in Arizona for a week for a police training thing and I'm left alone with my devilish thoughts. What the hell....... :twisted: ...........
let's take another look at this...
The first few slats came up quite nicely actually. I made good progress. Scott will be surprised when he gets home. I spent all day today working on it. Some gave me trouble. They were in there good with some rusted nails the size of spikes. But most of it was just a little elbow grease. I would say that I have 2/3 of the floor done and I'm pleased. 75% of the boards I pulled up revealed the SECOND floor beneath it. A really true barn floor of considerable age. The one below must be 100 years old. The one I pulled up is probably only 60 years old.
The other 25% of boards pulled up revealed no floor underneath at all. Just dirt and empty bays.
I will finish up tomorrow.
So far, I have about a dozen full length wide slats about 10 feet long. I have another dozen that are about 4 to 6 feet long. After tomorrow I will post pictures of the pile of floorboards I collected.
If I can't sell them, they will be planed down and finished to make a really nice control room floor.
Time for 3 pictures taken today. These show the board coming up and the floor underneath. Text documentation is on each photo. Take a look!
As for me, I'm so sore....off to bed.
Please click on each one to enlarge for detail.
http://www.kathylabonte.com/barn/thumbs/th_pullingupfloor1.jpg http://www.kathylabonte.com/barn/thumbs/th_pullingupfloor2.jpg http://www.kathylabonte.com/barn/thumbs/th_pullingupfloor3.jpg
just a thought ... rather than planing, there may be another process that cleans them up without removing the charm that comes with years of wear. if you plane them you could end up with ordinary new-looking boards.
sorry, maybe i've watched too much Antiques Roadshow :P
True, I was sort of wondering that myself. Anyone know of additional ways to restore the boards without losing the age?just a thought ... rather than planing, there may be another process that cleans them up without removing the charm that comes with years of wear. if you plane them you could end up with ordinary new-looking boards. sorry, maybe i've watched too much Antiques Roadshow :P
Not offhand; but since I've been buried for so long, can you reiterate whatever questions you still have on floor construction (or whatever) :?
For example, do you still need info on exact construction methods or is it too late? Thanks... Steve
Hi Steve, Thanks for checking in. I can't even begin to imagine how thin you are spread with your own life and then being the Sound and Construction God here on this forum for all these ongoing threads that need help. I wish I didn't have to add to the pile and be a bother....but I'm convinced that this is the best place in the world to come to and perhaps my problems that are answered will be of help to someone else who won't have to ask them again. As for being too late for my questions, no, you're not. Just a few posts back I combined my two major questions into one post for you. I will just cut and paste that here again so you don't have to go search for it. Once I do that, I do have a third question now since I have completed the job of pulling up the old barn floor. I will ask that question separately in the next post. For now, here's the two that I still need some answers for: They are as follows: :?: Question #1 (regarding adding yellow insulation to pink insulation to acheive the 20% crush needed from top to bottom of cavity):Not offhand; but since I've been buried for so long, can you reiterate whatever questions you still have on floor construction (or whatever) :? For example, do you still need info on exact construction methods or is it too late? Thanks... Steve
Insulation - you're using 2x6 joists, right? If so, I'd assumed you had not very thick insulation (re: the pix) - so what I meant was, you would need more than one layer of insulation to over-fill your joist cavities, so that the insulation would push up against the bottom of the floor and damp any resonances. If you use a second layer of insulation, that would give you TWO places where the kraft paper would end up and that's NOT GOOD, either acoustically or "moisturally" as it would trap moisture, most likely just where it DOESN'T need to be...... So, if I'm right and your insulation blankets are NOT thick enough to stick up ABOVE the floor joists before putting the plywood/OSB down, then you need MORE fill in the floor in order to make the insulation stay snugly in contact with the OSB, thereby damping the floor against resonating. With the "fluffy stuff" type of insulation, between 15-20% "crush" is what you want.
:?: Question #2 (regarding the exact method of laying down and attaching the plywood to the floorjoists):The entire space from old floor to new floor should be filled/stuffed with insulation and there should be NO air space? That makes sense to me in terms of plain old insulation and keeping out the heat and cold, nevermind about sound. It seems as though only one strip of insulation couldn't do the job when it's so far above the old floor. So, if this is true this is GOOD news. It means I did NOT buy enough insulation to do the floor joists at all. Can I sorta correct my mistake by purchasing the yellow fluffy stuff now? Can that be the bottom layer that lays on the barn floor and then the pink stuff with paper backing lay on top of that? That would be ideal if I could still use my pink stuff and only add an order of non-backed yellow stuff to add to it to fill the cavity completely.
You'll want to put the first layer down using construction adhesive between joists and OSB PLUS nails (better yet, screws properly sunk) - this will minimise any rattles/vibrations/squeaks. Same with the second layer, only just glue the T&G joints themselves, and stripes of adhesive over each joist location - this allows each layer to maintain its own coincidence frequency, which helps with damping a bit.
We used #8 nails. Is this not sufficient? Do we have to use screws? I prefer screws but is it a matter of taste or is there a reason why we should use one over the other? ......What kind of construction adhesive to use (brand, style) and is it only one strip where the board is going to lay over the joist? Second layer, the adhesive on the T&G and over each joist? Do I use the adhesive on the T&G of the first layer too? Any nails or screws on the second layer?[ I love your commitment to communication and attention to detail. I am the same way. Could you just lay it out in steps for me again as if I were a monkey that needed to know EVERY small thing on how to lay and secure the floor? Specifically, the differences between layer one and layer two. That would help me tremendously to not be confused.
INSULATION UPDATE
Regarding Question #1 above:
I moved forward on decisions regarding insulation just because I had the opportunity to go to Home Depot and so I did. Here's what I have chosen -
I purchased more pink fluffy stuff, this time with NO BACKING, size R-19.
I will place THIS as the first layer to be put on top of the old barn floor (which is actually no longer there as it was pulled up and there is now only dirt there sitting inside of empty 2x4 bays in the ground - see my question below).
On top of the R-19 I will put back the bats of R-13 that were originally being placed there (at one time they were scheduled to be the ONLY insulation under the new raised subfloor until I came here and was taught otherwise).
The R-19 and the R-13 will sit together and hopefully raise up enough to give me a bit of a "crush" when it is time to put the plywood floor down -
A complete fill from the bottom of the original barn floor to the bottom of the new barn floor.
I hope I bought the right stuff. I'll wait to hear if I didn't.
But first, I have another problem/question that needs to be answered quickly because I am at this stage and ready to go.
Question #3
Before I pulled up all the old barn floor boards I was just going to sit the unfaced R19 insulation on the floorboards themselves, then the R13 on top of that and then the plywood. That would be correct with only one paper backing on the R13 providing the vapor barrier up against the plywood of the new floor.
However.......I have now PULLED UP almost all of the original barn floorboards to reveal the earth. Just dirt sitting in empty 2x4 frames sunk a bit into the ground.
There is no protection from the elements. No protection from the dirt. It is dry as a bone but who knows if it is always like that. I can't put insulation directly on the dirt and ground, can I??? I doubt it.
So what do I replace the old floorboards with for the insulation to lay on?
I bought plastic sheeting hoping this is the right answer. I am going to lay down the sheeting and then place the insulation. This plastic sheeting is also a vapor barrier, right? Is that ok if it's sitting on the ground?
I was going to actually buy some thin sheets of plywood to place down on the area that I pulled the boards up from but I didn't know if that was necessary.
So is the plastic sheeting ok?
Please let me know ASAP so I can get started tonight if possible.
Thanks so much....Kathy
Your question 3 makes me a bit nervous; I don't remember seeing whether you have an actual concrete perimeter foundation in this building?
Typical construction puts plastic on the ground, concrete perimeter foundation, VENTS every so many feet, and THEN floor joists/underlayment/finish floor resting on sill plates on the concrete foundation.
This works as long as the VENTS are not covered up, and as long as there isn't a SECOND vapor barrier at the floor level to TRAP any moisture that enters the crawl space. When people PLUG these vents (winter heat conservation) the plugs need to be removed when the weather gets warmer, or DRY ROT happens.
My feeling on your construction is that you should put the plastic down, but find a way to keep the insulation AWAY from it; moisture won't hurt fiberglass at all, but the fiberglass will reduce any air circulation that could help dry things if/when they get wet.
The dynamics are - when you heat the room, this drives any moisture OUTward through walls/ceiling/floor, until it encounters a vapor barrier. So to keep the wall cavities (and floor cavities) dry, we put a vapor barrier just behind the room-side panels. The heat in the room keeps the panels themselves dry.
If we then have a SECOND vapor barrier in the construction, any moisture that's BETWEEN the two will be trapped and cause rot, mold, mildew, etc. - By the same token, earth moisture tends to rise into the floor cavity and needs to be controlled - this is why, in NORMAL construction, the vapor barrier is the plastic on the ground. Eventually, the heated space will normalize through the non-vapor barrier floor and help dissipate moisture in the floor cavity.
Sound proofing and moisture control are two needs that always seem to counteract each other unless we help them out with mechanical means - the only workable solution I've come to is to ONLY use plastic on the ground, use NO vapor barrier elsewhere, keep the insulation AWAY from the plastic for circulation around the plastic, and run a dehumidifier 24/7 if necessary to maintain the inner RH below 40% at all times.
By keeping internal RH low, you don't drive moisture thru the floor and into the cavity with nowhere to go (plastic on the ground) -
This brings us to a way to keep the insulation (1) away from the plastic covered dirt and (2) compressed against the floor panels for damping.
Since your framing is already in place and NOT accessible to drive nails or screws into from the BOTTOM, the only way I know to do this is to rip some cleats (1x1, or 3/4" actual size) and fasten them along the bottom edges of ALL your joists on both sides of every joist - then get some 1x2 slats and cut them to lay across the cleats every 2 feet or less, to support the insulation between the joists WITHOUT it touching the ground.
For a better idea of what I mean, lift the mattress on your bed and look at the side rails; it's likely they have such a cleat running near the bottom, with slats across to support the mattress. I'll do a simple sketch here just in case you have a waterbed or futon :wink:
HTH... Steve
This method would work even better (damping-wise) with denser insulation - it looked to me like what you have is the normal "fluffy stuff" sold at most home stores. This will require more compression than the heavier rockwool types in order to provide a measure of damping to your plywood "drum head" floor in addition to either GG or roofing felt. Lay a piece of OSB on top of the insulation once the slats are in place, and if you don't have to put a bit of your weight on the OSB to make it contact the joist firmly, I would add some extra strips of insulation lengthwise in the centers of your joist cavities for a bit more "crush"...
Well......
I honestly feel like I am going to cry. (how often do you hear THAT here? Seeing as this is a forum full of guys, my guess is this would be the first.)
You gave a very well thought out answer and I appreciate that very much. But some of what you said I didn't understand at all.
No concrete. Just a 100 year old barn built right on top of the dirt. Underneath the floor is Mother Earth. The ONLY concrete that exists are the 10 posts we poured to build the raised subfloor on. 5 of them down the center of the room, the other 5 down the left/west side of the room (we are using the wall on the right/east side to attach the subfloor to and did not pour concrete posts on that side).Your question 3 makes me a bit nervous; I don't remember seeing whether you have an actual concrete perimeter foundation in this building?
The first thing is I don't know what a sill plate is. But I don't think we have one. Secondly, we don't have any vents. There is no foundation, just dirt that sits in between "bays" of old wooden framing that the original floor was nailed to. When the floor came up, the framing shows and is filled/covered with dirt. There was no existing concrete, no existing insulation underneath. It was a horse barn. If I lay down the plastic sheeting now, it is right on top of the dirt.Typical construction puts plastic on the ground, concrete perimeter foundation, VENTS every so many feet, and THEN floor joists/underlayment/finish floor resting on sill plates on the concrete foundation.
No vents to cover up. No second vapor barrier that I know of - which is the reason why I did not buy more rolls of the faced R13. You had said that having the paper backing in the middle of the cavity would trap moisture. The only barrier I am aware of is/will be the paper backing on the R13 that will be up against the plywood that is being put down as the subfloor.This works as long as the VENTS are not covered up, and as long as there isn't a SECOND vapor barrier at the floor level to TRAP any moisture that enters the crawl space. When people PLUG these vents (winter heat conservation) the plugs need to be removed when the weather gets warmer, or DRY ROT happens.
This is where I start to feel the tears well up......partly out of frustration. I didn't know I needed air circulation under there. The last time we discussed this was when you taught me that the current insulation I had was not enough and that there shouldn't be any air gap under there - the insulation should touch from the bottom of the ground to the bottom of the new plywood subfloor. If I had left it the way I had it there was a huge gaping area under there that existed underneath the one measly strip of R13. I learned that for proper damping the entire space should be filled and that it should be packed well enough to create a 20% crush when attempting to nail down the top plywood. It was after learning all this that I went out and bought additional insulation that was not paper backed so that I could fill that area in well. But now I'm learning that I SHOULD leave air space??? I'm really confused. To further complicate things, at the time that you taught me about the need for fuller insulation, I still had the old barn floor there and I was just going to lay the first layer of insulation right on top of the boards without issue. But I've created more of a problem for myself by pulling up those boards and exposing raw earth in which I KNOW I can't just lay insulation down on top of. So I bought the plastic sheeting. But you're saying that I should keep the insulation away from it, somehow elevate it a bit to keep air circulation. I assume you would say to do the same whether or not there was an existing old floor there or just dirt, right? It applies to either?My feeling on your construction is that you should put the plastic down, but find a way to keep the insulation AWAY from it; moisture won't hurt fiberglass at all, but the fiberglass will reduce any air circulation that could help dry things if/when they get wet.
And this is, I assume, the kraft paper backing that is touching the bottom of the plywood on the subfloor? This would be the vapor barrier that the moisture would encounter first, correct? Way up there at the floor level where the paper is pressed up against the plywood, right?The dynamics are - when you heat the room, this drives any moisture OUTward through walls/ceiling/floor, until it encounters a vapor barrier. So to keep the wall cavities (and floor cavities) dry, we put a vapor barrier just behind the room-side panels. The heat in the room keeps the panels themselves dry.
Which is why you wouldn't want me to lay a second layer of kraft faced insulation under the first one. Got it so far.If we then have a SECOND vapor barrier in the construction, any moisture that's BETWEEN the two will be trapped and cause rot, mold, mildew, etc. -
So, is having plastic on the ground AND paper backing at the opposite end of the journey (attached to the underside of the plywood floor) a bad thing???By the same token, earth moisture tends to rise into the floor cavity and needs to be controlled - this is why, in NORMAL construction, the vapor barrier is the plastic on the ground. Eventually, the heated space will normalize through the non-vapor barrier floor and help dissipate moisture in the floor cavity.
Ok, I don't know what RH is yet. And let's put the dehumidifier aside for a moment. Would it be okay if I: laid the plastic, stuffed the space with the insulation being placed on top of the plastic, and ended with the kraft faced bat secured to the joists with paper facing the bottom of the plywood?Sound proofing and moisture control are two needs that always seem to counteract each other unless we help them out with mechanical means - the only workable solution I've come to is to ONLY use plastic on the ground, use NO vapor barrier elsewhere, keep the insulation AWAY from the plastic for circulation around the plastic, and run a dehumidifier 24/7 if necessary to maintain the inner RH below 40% at all times.
So, by purchasing a dehumidifier and running it constantly, I'll basically keep my problems to a minimum. Can you give me ballpark on the cost of a unit and the cost of running it so much?By keeping internal RH low, you don't drive moisture thru the floor and into the cavity with nowhere to go (plastic on the ground) -
I'm sorry, but I don't know what a cleat is. Assume I know nothing and that includes terminology because I don't. I really did just learn what a joist is.This brings us to a way to keep the insulation (1) away from the plastic covered dirt and (2) compressed against the floor panels for damping. Since your framing is already in place and NOT accessible to drive nails or screws into from the BOTTOM, the only way I know to do this is to rip some cleats (1x1, or 3/4" actual size) and fasten them along the bottom edges of ALL your joists on both sides of every joist - then get some 1x2 slats and cut them to lay across the cleats every 2 feet or less, to support the insulation between the joists WITHOUT it touching the ground.
I do understand the mattress comparison. Without knowing what a cleat is I get the idea that I need to suspend the insulation up and away from the ground which is what I didn't know before. I really thought it was supposed to touch the ground to the new floor for damping purposes. Having to build something to keep it elevated puts a whole new "I don't want to deal with this" spin on things. I'm starting to think I should have left well enough alone with less insulation.For a better idea of what I mean, lift the mattress on your bed and look at the side rails; it's likely they have such a cleat running near the bottom, with slats across to support the mattress. I'll do a simple sketch here just in case you have a waterbed or futon :wink:
Well, it gets even better. After coming home tonight I realized that just adding the second layer underneath will NOT bring it up high enough to touch the plywood. And if I was thinking properly, I would have realized this in Home Depot. The joists themselves are 2x6. That means I have 6 inches of depth to fill right from the start and that's WITHOUT having the joists raised and sitting on cement posts that are an additional 6 or more inches off of the floor. I've got a foot, give or take in some areas, of depth to fill before the new plywood floor! The pink fluffy stuff is only 3 1/2 inches deep. Two layers of it is only 7 inches! I'm going to need 3 layers or more to get it nice and solidly packed to provide the crush. They had the R30 there which was 9 inches deep and I almost went for it but the salesman said that if it was packed too dense it does the opposite of insulate. It loses its insulation value when packed too tight and squished. So, I didn't get it. But my new subfloor is REALLY high off of the original barn floor and now it is even worse because I pulled up the old barn floorboards which makes the ground even lower than before! So, that's alright. I'll just keep putting layers on until it is filled up to the top and I have that crush that is desirable. I will just have to go back and buy more because I underestimated what I needed this trip. However, my main problem is now about building this system to suspend the insulation above the plastic. I really don't want to do that and am wondering how important it is. If I placed thin 1/4 inch plywood boards down over the plastic, would I still have to keep the insulation away? Could I then lay the insulation on top of the wood (as if the original floorboards were still there?). Are you more insistent on having the insulation pulled away from the plastic or just pulled away from the ground in general? What is my easiest way out of this? Thin sheets of plywood? I'm so sorry that I'm asking this much. Please bear with me thru this part. I appreciate your patience with me.This method would work even better (damping-wise) with denser insulation - it looked to me like what you have is the normal "fluffy stuff" sold at most home stores. This will require more compression than the heavier rockwool types in order to provide a measure of damping to your plywood "drum head" floor in addition to either GG or roofing felt. Lay a piece of OSB on top of the insulation once the slats are in place, and if you don't have to put a bit of your weight on the OSB to make it contact the joist firmly, I would add some extra strips of insulation lengthwise in the centers of your joist cavities for a bit more "crush"...
Kathy... you might be surprised about the crying@!!! RH = Relative Humidity Now... the cleats... Think of a bed with bed slats and a mattress sitting on top of them. The bed has two bed rails on either side. These are the floor joists. On the insides of the rails are two pieces of wood that the slats sit on. These are the cleats. What Knightfly is suggesting is that if you copy that system by cutting pieces of wood to nail along the bottom of the floor joists, then make some slats to sit across them, then you can lay the insulation between the joists (the insulation becomes the mattress in the analogy). The insulation is then suspended above the dirt and is only inbetween the joists. There is then nothing but air under the insulation. The slats support the insulation so you can fill up the space between the joist and squeeze it down with the floor. I think it's a good suggestion because it will be cheap and not too terribly difficult to do....I hope that helps...dbWell...... I honestly feel like I am going to cry. (how often do you hear THAT here? Seeing as this is a forum full of guys, my guess is this would be the first.) Ok, I don't know what RH is yet. I'm sorry, but I don't know what a cleat is. Assume I know nothing and that includes terminology because I don't. I really did just learn what a joist is.
Good! I hope so. Don't wanna be the only one.Kathy... you might be surprised about the crying@!!!Well...... I honestly feel like I am going to cry. (how often do you hear THAT here? Seeing as this is a forum full of guys, my guess is this would be the first.) Ok, I don't know what RH is yet. I'm sorry, but I don't know what a cleat is. Assume I know nothing and that includes terminology because I don't. I really did just learn what a joist is.
Thanks. I haven't done my homework in ALL areas of the forum yet. I should have known that one but now I do.RH = Relative Humidity
But wait a minute.....that's how I already had it to begin with BEFORE all this talk of not having enough insulation!!! Ok, I didn't have the cleat system to act as a brace that holds the insulation in the joist cavity......but I didn't need to. I have paper backed insulation that I stapled to the top of the joist that held it in place just fine! The insulation hung down into the cavity, the paper wings were stapled to the top of the joist, and voila.....the plywood was ready to go down on top. This is how Scott and I were doing it. But then I was told that there was not enough insulation reaching down to the floor and that it should TOUCH the floor. This is where my confusion is coming in. If I need to have air space underneath the insulation than I already did and it was fine the way it was. If I needed extra layers of insulation to pack down to the floor completely then that's fine too......I went out and bought a ton more to fix it. But which one is right? Unless............. someone is going to say it is a combination of the two. That one strip of insulation is not enough to fill the cavity whereas two would be, but then I would need some sort of bracing (ie. cleats) to hold it in place below the top insulation but above the floor. Yes??? If that's true, then what happened to the theory that the insulation has to be packed all the way to the floor and TOUCH from the bottom of the original floor to the bottom of the new subfloor. What about damping and sound and all that? How can I have it on the floor yet still have air space? Am I crazy or is there some conflicting info I'm not digesting right or something??What Knightfly is suggesting is that if you copy that system by cutting pieces of wood to nail along the bottom of the floor joists, then make some slats to sit across them, then you can lay the insulation between the joists (the insulation becomes the mattress in the analogy). The insulation is then suspended above the dirt and is only inbetween the joists. There is then nothing but air under the insulation. The slats support the insulation so you can fill up the space between the joist and squeeze it down with the floor. I think it's a good suggestion because it will be cheap and not too terribly difficult to do....I hope that helps...db
Kathy, sorry for the confusion; and you're NOT alone, there are so many factors involved in ORDINARY building that it's confusing, much less when you add in the changes necessary for soundproofing, etc...
Initially you had normal paper backed insulation in your floor, and were NOT planning on removing the lower wood; your comment about that being right the first time isn't totally accurate. Yes, the paper would have held the insulation off the ground, but it would NOT have held it FIRMLY against the middle of each section of floor in order to dampen any ringing of the plywood. This ringing WILL color the room sound, and you need a CR to be as neutral as possible so you know what you're REALLY getting on "tape".
So, before you decided to go ahead and remove all the old wood, you had NO vapor barrier at ground level, and I wasn't totally up to speed on your conditions below the new floor (no vents, no foundation, etc) - since then I've learned more about your situation, and thought more about how to best satisfy ALL the requirements of your particular build.
Fiberglass insulation won't be hurt by moisture, but it also won't be conducive to allowing that moisture to DRY because the insulation inhibits air movement. Because of that, with a plastic vapor barrier on the dirt it's better NOT to run the insulation all the way to the ground, and for two reasons: (1) you don't need as much insulation, and (2) keeping an air space next to the ground will make it easier for moisture, should there be any, to either move to the lowest spot or evaporate, or both.
If sound proofing and acoustics were your only considerations, then simply stuffing the entire cavity below the tops of your joists to slightly overflowing and then putting the plywood on would work fine.
If HEAT retention was the only consideration, then what you did in the first place would be fine.
Since BOTH of these are important, we need to find a way to satisfy ALL the criteria.
In a sound barrier, the purpose of insulation is to DAMP any ringing of panels and to IMPEDE the movement of air within the cavity, the combination of which improves overall isolation by around 8-10 dB. This is the function we need to keep.
In a normal floor, keeping moisture under control and heat contained is the purpose of insulation.
In order to do both, the insulation needs to be partly compressed against the panels for damping, and there can be only ONE vapor barrier or we get moisture problems.
In your case, you could choose to put the ONE vapor barrier up against the plywood and NOTHING on the dirt; this would probably work, but it would cause the entire space below floor to become NON-conditioned space; that is, no heat, no ventilation, no humidity control. If enough moisture rises thru the dirt, it will eventually cause your new floor to rot.
BTW, the reason they call it RELATIVE humidity is because it's the measure of how much moisture is suspended in the air, RELATIVE to the TOTAL amount of moisture that air can hold; as air gets colder, it can hold LESS moisture, so colder air with the same amount of moisture has a HIGHER Relative Humidity.
By putting the vapor barrier against the ground, you keep moisture from rising into the floor area; by NOT overlapping the tar paper between floor layers, and NOT using backing in the insulation, the floor stays slightly permeable to moisture travel; If you then keep the humidity under control (the 40% level) eventually the space BELOW the floor will stabilize to that same level (or close), and 40% isn't friendly to mold, mildew or rot.
You would turn the dehumidifier OFF during actual use; this will become apparent the first time you try to leave it on (they're not real quiet) -
Some terms - a Cleat is just a small piece of lumber, fastened on next to a larger one to make the joint stronger - in the case of your floor, the cleats (labeled on the drawing) support the slats that go across between joists to hold insulation up against the underside of the floor.
There are a few other terms shown in this sketch - don't try to build like the sketch though, I'm only showing you what is "normal", so you can see how yours is different.
Tough love - you're not allowed to cry, because you need to keep your eyes clear for all the reading you still have to do :twisted:
I'll be going to work in about 6 hours and won't be off for another 12 after that, but I'll try to check in by about 10 pm your time if you are still confused about any of this - hang in there, you're not just learning a new trade you're learning a new language. It's not easy for ANYONE... Steve
Okay. It seems to me that by removing the old existing floorboards, I have created more steps and more work for myself. More problems, really. Can I assume that if I would have left the old barn floorboards down on the floor, just as they were, that those did not constitute a vapor barrier and we would still be talking about stuffing insulation from the floorboards to the new floor - compressing it so that it touches both floors? Yes? I'm assuming that wood is not a vapor barrier and therefore, the insulation can be snugly tucked in between the two floors for a density that works well for damping. If that's all correct, I've changed things by removing the old wooden floor. By exposing the earth and dirt, I now need to place protection there - in this case plastic sheeting which is a vapor barrier, and by doing that I can no longer allow the insulation to fill the cavity completely to touch the upper and lower because there needs to be air movement to dissipate any potential moisture that could arise. For some reason, that isn't a concern when the wood floor was down there?? Anyways, that takes us to having to build cleats and a system to hold the insulation into place. That also brings up the issue of still having kraft faced insulation as well as unfaced in my supply wagon. Let's nip the insulation issue in the bud now - why don't I just forget about using the kraft faced backing stuff altogether for this stage of the construction. I have rolls and rolls of it BUT....won't I be able to use it elsewhere like in the control room or vocal room walls? Or somewhere in the ceiling? If I can just put it aside and use it at another stage then that's one problem solved. Or, if I really can't use it anywhere at all I can always bring it back to Home Depot and exchange it for the non paper backed kind. I bought it months ago but since it hasn't been used I'm sure they'll exchange it. So just tell me - will I be able to use it elsewhere in our construction or should I exchange it? Either way, I'm going to do the floor completely with the unfaced stuff. Onto the next issues... Can I somehow go back in time to before I pulled up those floorboards when the insulation process was going to be easier? Can I now lay down plywood boards in place of the wooden floor that was there? If I do that, and do not use the plastic sheeting, can I then go back to filling the area with insulation from the floor to the floor and not need the air space underneath? If I stick with the plastic sheeting (already purchased and much cheaper than having to buy plywood), I will have to build the cleats you are talking about to hold the insulation firmly against the new plywood floor. Below is your definition of a cleat:Fiberglass insulation won't be hurt by moisture, but it also won't be conducive to allowing that moisture to DRY because the insulation inhibits air movement. Because of that, with a plastic vapor barrier on the dirt it's better NOT to run the insulation all the way to the ground, and for two reasons: (1) you don't need as much insulation, and (2) keeping an air space next to the ground will make it easier for moisture, should there be any, to either move to the lowest spot or evaporate, or both. ...the insulation needs to be partly compressed against the panels for damping, and there can be only ONE vapor barrier or we get moisture problems. In your case, you could choose to put the ONE vapor barrier up against the plywood and NOTHING on the dirt; this would probably work, but it would cause the entire space below floor to become NON-conditioned space; that is, no heat, no ventilation, no humidity control. If enough moisture rises thru the dirt, it will eventually cause your new floor to rot. By putting the vapor barrier against the ground, you keep moisture from rising into the floor area; by NOT overlapping the tar paper between floor layers, and NOT using backing in the insulation, the floor stays slightly permeable to moisture travel; If you then keep the humidity under control (the 40% level) eventually the space BELOW the floor will stabilize to that same level (or close), and 40% isn't friendly to mold, mildew or rot.
Believe it or not, I still cannot "visualize" this even with your drawing. I have a real problem when it comes to maps and drawings and with a touch of dyslexia it's even worse. I understand the mattress and bedframe just fine. Even went and looked at mine. I just don't "see" how to build this and how to attach the wood and where. Can you try one more time to explain how to execute putting it together? But that aside, I wanted to show you something else. Your description of a cleat sounds also like it applies to the braces that Scott has started putting on the floor (he's only done one side so far). They are small pieces of scrap 2x6 that go in between each row, each slat, to stop them from twisting and to give them added strength. They also happen to get in the way of insulating because they divide the bay in half. Please look at this photo and you will see what I mean. Are these also considered cleats? Please click to enlarge for detail. http://www.kathylabonte.com/barn/thumbs/th_barn_north_floor1.jpg The order to all these steps would be as follows I presume -Some terms - a Cleat is just a small piece of lumber, fastened on next to a larger one to make the joint stronger - in the case of your floor, the cleats (labeled on the drawing) support the slats that go across between joists to hold insulation up against the underside of the floor.
- • lay down the plastic sheeting
• lay the PVC tubing over the plastic and finish wiring and securing those into place
• build the cleat suspension system and lay the insulation
• cut holes in the insulation where the tubes will protrude thru
• lay down plywood floor, also cutting holes where the tubes will protrude
Kathy,
Please go back and carefully read Knighfly's last (long) post about the insulation. You are mixing different circumstances and conditions and coming up with a third set of possibilities. I know you want to get moving as soon as possible. We ALL do. I've been working on my studio almost daily for 5 months or so and would love to cut corners to get it done so I can make music again instead of impact noise (although, I might make a "symphony" of construction noises someday!).
I think you are over analyzing the "cleat" problem. Try and picture it this way: You are going to put insulation in the spaces between your floor joists but gravity will conspire to pull them through the opening and down to the floor so you need some way to hold them up so that doesn't happen.
As a quick aside, "damping" is exactly the same as touching a cymbal lightly with your finger - it stops it from vibrating. If you are touching it with your finger when you hit it, it will make a little noise but it will stop pretty quickly. That is damping. Having the insulation up against the flooring material does the same thing as your fingers on a cymbal: prevents it from EXCESSIVELY vibrating. To continue with the analogy, the lighter you touch the cymbal, the less the damping effect. If you hold it too hard, it will make no noise. That is where the 20% "crush" factor or compression of the insulation comes in: not to little, not too much.
Back to the problem at hand: Your "fix" can be as simple as getting under the floor joists (if that's still possible) and stapling string to the bottom of the joists back and forth about 1 foot apart. This "web" will be more than enough to hold up the light weight insulation. Another alternative (albeit, a little more work) would be to cut the insulation batts across the long dimension and make them perhaps an inch longer than the span ACROSS the joists (in other words, put them in sideways). The inch on each end would give you something to staple to (provides the same function as the kraft paper packing) plus since you have made them a little longer than necessary, they will bow up in the middle above the top of the joists only to be "crushed" when you put down the floor boards thus giving you the damping you need. Simple. Besides, you said that the spacers your carpenter is putting in to prevent twisting are going to make you have to cut the insulation any way. It cuts very easily with a utility knife.
Hope that clears things up a little.
len
You mean by asking about placing wood down again? I have re-read Knight's post several times already to absorb it because I truly do not want to be confused and appear unable to grasp this. Steve has taken great time and patience to create the drawings and text to teach me. It's unfortunate that the drawings don't sink in for me like they should. If I am mixing circumstances and conditions I apologize. I just want to have a clear position on things such as: if wood is a vapor barrier, and if the spacers being used now between the joists also qualify under the traditional meaning of the word cleat.Kathy, Please go back and carefully read Knighfly's last (long) post about the insulation. You are mixing different circumstances and conditions and coming up with a third set of possibilities.
I do understand what the cleats are (though I really appreciate your efforts to break it down further for me). It wasn't that I was overanalyzing, it's just that I couldn't "see" how to make them in my situation. You completely solved that below. But I do understand what they are and I also understand damping. Both of those issues were not confusing in and by themselves. It is when they were thrown into scenarios that things got a little hairy.I think you are over analyzing the "cleat" problem. Try and picture it this way: You are going to put insulation in the spaces between your floor joists but gravity will conspire to pull them through the opening and down to the floor so you need some way to hold them up so that doesn't happen. As a quick aside, "damping" is exactly the same as touching a cymbal lightly with your finger - it stops it from vibrating. If you are touching it with your finger when you hit it, it will make a little noise but it will stop pretty quickly. That is damping. Having the insulation up against the flooring material does the same thing as your fingers on a cymbal: prevents it from EXCESSIVELY vibrating. To continue with the analogy, the lighter you touch the cymbal, the less the damping effect. If you hold it too hard, it will make no noise. That is where the 20% "crush" factor or compression of the insulation comes in: not to little, not too much.
This is perfect. That's what I was hoping for, something a 10 year old could read and execute. I "see" that with no problem. You described how to do it and I think I can get under/around the joists with a staplegun. Thank you, that explained how to create the suspension system needed.Back to the problem at hand: Your "fix" can be as simple as getting under the floor joists (if that's still possible) and stapling string to the bottom of the joists back and forth about 1 foot apart. This "web" will be more than enough to hold up the light weight insulation.
Yes, that is simple though more work as you said. Except I don't think that will work as well in my case because we are dealing with 2 strips of insulation, not just one. I need two rows deep. Well, I guess I could staple in one real low inside the joist and then staple in another higher up to rest on top of the first one. But I think I like the string idea better.Another alternative (albeit, a little more work) would be to cut the insulation batts across the long dimension and make them perhaps an inch longer than the span ACROSS the joists (in other words, put them in sideways). The inch on each end would give you something to staple to (provides the same function as the kraft paper packing) plus since you have made them a little longer than necessary, they will bow up in the middle above the top of the joists only to be "crushed" when you put down the floor boards thus giving you the damping you need. Simple.
Yes, I have no choice but to cut it based on the support spacers. So, I'm still wondering for wonder's sake and my own correct knowledge - are those spacers technically considered cleats or are cleats classified as pieces of wood that are attached to perform only a certain function?Besides, you said that the spacers your carpenter is putting in to prevent twisting are going to make you have to cut the insulation any way. It cuts very easily with a utility knife.
Yes, Len it helped. I guess I should just surrender any third possibilities and get to laying down the plastic now. Then resume laying cable within my PVC tubing which is where I was when this all started.Hope that clears things up a little.