Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

I also picked up this book over the weekend and it seems to be pretty good so far: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=yV2yUBg9Z4&isbn=1561586595&itm=1 It seems to have some pretty good info on demo, checking for problem areas such as cracks / moisture, project planning, materials planning etc so far. Will let you know as I get deeper in. Of course, and with the DVD one needs to apply the principals learned here in the forum on top of, or in place of the information in the book. I like your solution on having the 3 leaves on one side to solve the resonance issue. There are still a few outstanding questions I have for you Steve if you have a few minutes: 1) With the S/g Doors between Drum and Vocal Booth, and Booth and Control Room. How much should I put into these walls before the s/g doot becomes the source of db loss. i.e Would your above suggestion of 3 layers on one side 2 on the other be two much for these walls, or do you think that would be appropriate? Does anyone have any specs on standard Pella type s/g doors? 2) Ref: the three leaf issue with the concrete block. As per my previous question - How much worse do you think framing and drywalling these two partially submerged walls will make sound to my neighbours? Will it be noticable? Is there any other suggestions you have? Thanks for your invaluable help, both in this, and all the other threads that I read with great interest. Thanks also for the lead on the dvd! Andy

andy_eade wrote:

I like your solution on having the 3 leaves on one side . . .

No, no, no -- he described three layers on one side. All three of the layers are in the same leaf. That's probably what you meant, but we need to keep things clear for everyone. :) --Keith :mrgreen:

Yes my bad for being a lazy typist :oops: I meant 3 layers on one side and 2 on the other. Man - there's no catching you out Keith! :)

From the Pella site - specs I'm posting the STC specs if that's all you need. Appears as if they only spec double pane, even though from their site http://www.pellaadm.com/HTML/index.html It looks like they offer what SOUNDS like a single, 3/4" thick pane door... I typed in STC in their search box to find their pdf specs. Not too surprisingly, around STC 30 is typical. And you're right, two layers of 1/2 gyp on one side and a single layer of 5/8 on the other side of non-resilient mount, single stud has a much better rating. I think that, if you can find them, single-pane 3/4" doors for each side of the booth would work about as good for vox to the CR and BETTER for drum iso between drum booth and CR, since this would give a true double leaf with high mass and WIDE air gap. Still waiting on your answer about "Is this patio door you're talking about the one shown at the top of your plan, next to the CR's angled slider?" Steve

Sorry Steve, yes. I was refering to the original patio door at the top of the plan. So you think I would only need 2 layers 1/2' on one side and 1 layer of 5/8 on the other for the walls with the s/g doors? Assuming Green glue is even overkill on these walls? I will definitely be on the lookout for those single pane 3/4" door over the standard one's. Thanks again. I'm hoping to begin some demo this weekend - just bought a new Black and Decker 18v Set tonight - Drill, Circular Saw and recipricating saw. So hopefully I will be posting some pictures soon with some progress. Yippee! Andy.

With only single sliding glass doors on each side of the booth, all you can hope for is decent iso for vox and for the booth to isolate your drums from the CR well enough to be able to place mics by listening to your SPEAKERS, without much interference from flanking sound. IF you can find the 3/4" solid glass doors WITHOUT a second thin glass, then the doors will work better for the drum iso - in that case, going back to 3/2 layers on the walls will likely make sense, because then your two sliders will constitute a proper m-a-m barrier between the Drum room and CR but your WALLS will be 4-leaf. So to help override the inherent bass weakness in a 4-leaf design, adding another layer each side will probably be necessary. BTW, I don't have a way of calculating 4-leaf walls but I know you can lose 10-20 dB without trying too hard... Steve

Wow that much eh! Well, the 4 leaf problem created by the dual pane s/g doors and walls for the booth have long been a concern of mine, so it's great to have a clearer idea on a solution. Do you think using green glue on one of the layers of each of the two walls may help also? If I did the 3/2 walls but added green glue to one or more layers?

Steve - and all; I was just taking a look at the product info on S/G doors on the Pella website and I had a thought and wondered if anyone has explored this... So, I am in the process of having the windows in the rest of my house replaced with PVC windows. The company I went with came and measured and said that they are "Custom" made in the factory to within 1/16". Cool right? Well, here is my thought. As I was scanning the Penna info wondering if they truly offer a single pane s/g/ door it occurred to me that if some of these companies truly do "custom make" there windows, if one could request they "customize" the glazing approach. i.e. rather than have 2 layers of 3/16" (or whatever they use) glass, filled with argon; they either a) glue the two layers directly together, or b) add a third layer and glue all three together. Thoughts? As a side note, I had the great oppertunity to go into Omega studios on Wednesday to track drums for a band and took the oppertunity to have a real nose around. This place is one of the largest commercial studios in the DC area. I was really tickeled to see them using what looked like a relatively normal S/D between the live room and the Booth. Having said that the door that went from the live room to the lounge was some serious door!!! Aboute 2 inches thick and heavy as steel with sealing out the wazoon!! You can see both on there 360 degree tour here: http://www.omegastudios.com/studio_a360.html Also, still keen to seek your opinion on using the Green Glue for the Booth walls as above. Many Thanks, Andy

Something kinda like this: http://www.soundproofwindows.com/doors.html Update: I just talked with Jack from Soundproof windows and using one of their single s/g door probably would not cut it. Total glass width is only 1/4" including the laminate with an STC rating of 35. He was saying that you really need to use two together, on each side of the booth. That would take me back to the original 4 leaf problem. Out of interest. Cost would have been $1185 per door plus $685 shipping (for 4) to the East coast. Their product might be useful though for some of you who are only needing one entry into a booth / room. Mind you for $2400+...

I think this couold be the guy... http://www.pella.com/lowes_thermastar/PLuniquefeatures.asp# I will be calling tomorrow t find out more...

Wow, that does look like a winner. But I'll bet they're expensive! :shock: Then again, none of these things are cheap, eh? :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

andy_eade wrote:

Wow that much eh! Well, the 4 leaf problem created by the dual pane s/g doors and walls for the booth have long been a concern of mine, so it's great to have a clearer idea on a solution. Do you think using green glue on one of the layers of each of the two walls may help also? If I did the 3/2 walls but added green glue to one or more layers?

Still hoping for some insight on the above question... Also wanted to give you an update on the door and a potential new issue. I talked with Pella and it is just what I'm looking for - laminated safety glass - no layers of air or argon - just one leaf! It even has a wood finish on one side which will look nice, and the other side is aluminum cladding; for which you can pick one of 6 colors. The bad news as Keith guessed was the price. Lowes do not carry and cannot special order it. I found a list of Pella stores on the website and called the local one here in the Metro area, and the guy quoted me over $3300 for the door! This was the "direct to me" price, but he explained that it would be cheaper if it was a General Contractor calling him - aparantly they get a discount. When I asked approximately how much that would save, he suggested around 50% - Now that's a discount!!!! So, $1600 is a little better- but still not the $300 I had been looking at in the Lowes circulars each week for Thermastar s/g doors!!! In other news I spent the day yesterday emptying out the basement of drums, guitars, consoles, and cables and finaly managed to find new homes for everything in other areas of the house. (My dog has now been relagated to the dining room!) :) I noticed as I was removing a large cardboard box, that the bottom part of the box was dicsolored; almost as if it had been sat in water. :shock: uh-oh! Could this confirm my suspicions that I may be about to reveal a massive moisture issue beneath the carpet and wood paneling? Could this explain why my one friend has the worst allergies whenever he comes over to my house - especially when in the basement??? I took a look around the perimeter and noticed that in the back corner the carpet and wood panelling looks very dark and discolored, and I found another area where the carpet meets the wall where there is this white stuff building up. I wondered if that could be mold, but then also wondered about some type of refridgerent, since it seems to be right about where the A/C unit sits outside about 6 feet up. I did have some problems back in the summer with the A/C unit being overworked and freezing up. I have bought a Mold Test Kit and will run that before I begin stripping the walls and floors... Anyways, that was yesterday, and I was already at risk of becoming single if I didn't pack up for the day and head over to my girlfriends. So here I am wondering what I am about to find beneath the walls and carpet! I'm also sitting here wondering if the $3300 quote for the s/g doors could have possibly been for 2 doors. After all I did tell him that I wanted to buy two - maybe he quoted me for two!!! :? Andy.

:shock: Yikes :shock: -- that's expensive alright!

I noticed as I was removing a large cardboard box, that the bottom part of the box was dicsolored; almost as if it had been sat in water. :shock: uh-oh! Could this confirm my suspicions that I may be about to reveal a massive moisture issue beneath the carpet and wood paneling? Could this explain why my one friend has the worst allergies whenever he comes over to my house - especially when in the basement??? I took a look around the perimeter and noticed that in the back corner the carpet and wood panelling looks very dark and discolored, and I found another area where the carpet meets the wall where there is this white stuff building up. I wondered if that could be mold, but then also wondered about some type of refridgerent, since it seems to be right about where the A/C unit sits outside about 6 feet up. I did have some problems back in the summer with the A/C unit being overworked and freezing up. I have bought a Mold Test Kit and will run that before I begin stripping the walls and floors... Anyways, that was yesterday, and I was already at risk of becoming single if I didn't pack up for the day and head over to my girlfriends. So here I am wondering what I am about to find beneath the walls and carpet!

Ugh -- that doesn't seem good... :roll: ...If you do discover mold, you need to seal off the room with plastic to keep the spores from migrating to the rest of the house, and take significant precautionary measures to protect yourself. Here's a great how-to article on mold remediation. Here's a picture of a plastic doorway that was put up to seal off our kitchen from our hallway when we suffered a water intrusion in our home two summers ago.

Thanks Keith - that's a great artcile and I will be following this stage of investigation very cautiously! I started thinking about what could be allowing the moisture in. Originally I was thinking it must be the water level in the soild, but then my house sits up on a hill and the water drains down a hill to the back of the property. I see the water collecting at the back of my yard on the rainiest of days... But then it occurred to me. The idiotic previous owners of my house decided to plant a fir tree about 2 feet away from the corner of my house. It is now about 3/4 the height of my house, and just happens to be sat on the same corner of the house as I am finding the moisture issue in the basement. I am wondering if the roots are going down deep enough to bring the water down there. I had planned to take that thing out this summer anyways, so I might just bring that up in the list of priorities...

You're about a month too late -- that would have made a nice Christmas tree! 8)

Maybe if my name was Clark Griswold!! It's about 20ft tall now! :lol:

Or Michael Scott! :lol: In this episode of The Office, the general manager brought in a Christmas Tree that was too tall for the office (in the background), so the cut the top off and ended up with a second, smaller tree (being held in the foreground). You could have had two trees! C'mon, man -- think out of the box! ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Yep- classic tv that is. It's my #2 right up there behind the uk version, which I highly recommend picking up!

I took another look at the front of the house near the offending tree and noticed two other potential problem spots: 1) Another tree stump (minus the tree). Diamter is about 7 or 8 inches, so I wonder how deep the roots go down. 2) The downspout from the gutter ends behind the tree on one of those small concrete blocks that is supposed to direct the drainage away from the house, but it is really not long enugh. Thinking I need a trip to Lowes to pick up a downspout extender... Also still keen to get some feedback from Steve on whether or not I should use Green glue on the 3/2 wall discussed a few post's back to overcome the 4 leaf effects... Thanks, Andy

Andy, the weak link in those two walls will be your sliders no matter what you put up for wallboard; I've been waiting to see what you find for glass, so I can get a better handle on the relative mass, etc... One way to go about this might be to treat the entire booth as a very thick "wall" - just put single pane heavy glass doors each side and 3 layers of gyp on ONE side of each frame, then fill the stud cavities with mineral wool for a really dead booth and a REALLY wide air gap in your "wall" between the drum room and the CR... Steve Downside of that is the booth wouldn't be well-isolated from either the drums or the CR, especially at the LOW frequencies...

Yes I do like that approach, although my search for single pane sliders is looking bleak. After a week of calling around various s/g door manufacturers, it would seem that Pella are the only company that offer a true single pane slider. The quote they have me on Saturday was for the wrong door, and it did actually have a second glass layer after the laminate layer and a air space. The true single pane slider cost is $4489. I could assume a 50% discount for contractors but this still puts two of these out of the question. I am wondering now whether I just get rid of the booth and stick with two rooms. Control Room and Drum / live room seperated by our trusty double pane slider for $300 at lowes. I have one last call into the glass company that are replacing my house windows to see if they can do anything. After that it looks like I'm stuck with double pane sliders...

Just curious... What if you bought more "ordinary" sliding glass doors, then had a glass shop replace the two panes with a single pane of laminated glass? I have no idea what kind of expense that would be, how practical it might or might not be, or if it's even possible... But it would seem that since these doors are for indoor use (i.e., not fortified for hurricanes or other extreme weather), you might be able to avoid the gold-plated pricing and focus on just getting a thick hunk of glass in the frames. I suppose there might be some issues with the rollers though -- they'd have to be upgraded to handle the extra weight. Brrrrrrr -- thinking outside the box is rather chilly! :P --Keith :mrgreen:

I like the way your thinking. I'm going to put a call in to Cardinal glass and ask them if this is possible. The only other thought I had was. Two regular sliders on each wall. Though this approach would further disobey the two leaf law by actually having 8 leaves per wall. I'm wondering if the extra mass of having four sheets of glass per wall would make up for it (similar to Steve's suggestion of adding a 3rd layer of drywall on one side of the wall to make up for the loss caused by the 4 leaf wall). All this would cost is $300 per door x4 = $1200 which is 1/4 the cost of one of Pella's single pane sliders!

any thoughts on the above? Also posted a proposed redesign to John in my other thread as a plan B if I cannot solve my issue and keep the current design. Let me know what you think. Best Regards, Andy

i wonder if the leaf rule really applies here. we are talking about a gap of maybe 10mm. the mass air mass resonance will therefore be high. below MAM frequency two panes act as one thick pane. you will take a hit AT the MAM freq, but maybe this isn't such a big deal. as usual the lower freqs will be the issue ... you might ask brian dayton (ravnaas) at studiotips, i bet he'd have something interesting to say on this. would try to calculate MAM but excel won't work ... would explain more but holding baby ;)