Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

Yes you're probably right. I couldn't decide which category it best fell into... :?

It's a tough call sometimes -- keeping everything neatly wrapped into one's project thread vs. starting a new one. There are pros and cons to each. One way to get the best of both worlds is sometimes to start a new thread, then link to it from your main project thread, and then update your main thread when you've made a decision. :-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Andy- I was curious if you could toss up any revisions you've made to the PDF you created for your building crew. A lot of that stuff was really good info for me in a very condensed form. I didn't feel like I was qualified to critique it, but I found it most interesting. I'd love to see an update of the doc if you made any changes. Thanks!

Hey there - glad to here that it's useful for someone else other than myself. I am actually in the process of making some changes to it, so I will post it as soon as it's done. Thanks, Andy

Hey Andy, I'm going to take back my comments (when I agreed with Keith) that your door and window frames weren't framed correctly. I'm not saying they could not be stronger with real double 2x6 or 2x8 headers, more cripple/jack studs... but they are non bearing partition walls being built in a location where there is (correct me if I am wrong) no need for exterior grade framing of interior walls (huricane or earquake zones). I've just been doing some searching on headers which lead to above comment. Google search of "partition wall frame" with variation of words "header", "2x4" and other words shows many partition wall frames with construction similar to yours. Also in regards to:

What do you guys think? Obviously Wall plates look a littel more pro, but with the snakes I can bring then in at different ends of the room and, like I said, I'm wondering if there is benefit from having less openings in the drywall.

Sorry for not posting on the other thread but, have you seen this: Update 1 on http://www.johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainpage/MP-Snapper.htm I think there are a few more pics similiar somewheres on this web site/ forum. I think either option if installed correctly would yeild the same amount of iso. Choice depends on cost and your prefernce of appearance. Main thing would be where you put the holes in your walls. Make sure the holes are not back to back, run the snake cable between double wall for a distance for breaking through the other side. Maybe even don't even put a hole in the CR/TR wall with window, run the snake behind the front inner wall of your TR and make the hole there. Then build a nice box under/ or somehwere around you mixing desk to mount a wall plate in. Don't flush mount the wall plate into a wall. Just my thoughts on the subject. Also

staggering the jack studs

I meant stagger all studs in double walls. Marc

Marc - thank you so much for giving me the update following your research. I really apreciate you taking the time to post your findings. You're absolutely right about me not being in a hurricane or earthquake zone. So do you think it's even worth mentioning to the Carpeneters that they should make the headers a little less wimpy considering the weight of the doors / window? For the cable runs I have decided to go with two 12x4x30 snakes (from Seismic Audio; one at each end of the room, and as you suggested, I plan on running this around the back of wall #4/ #1 in my plan. Talking of which. Lee had asked me to post an updated plan as soon as it was completed - so here it is. I took into account the feedback from Steve and also the changes in removing the booth / soundlock. Thanks and keep up the great work! Andy

So do you think it's even worth mentioning to the Carpenters that they should make the headers a little less wimpy considering the weight of the doors / window?

I would mention in to them, get there opinion. I think you would have to post the planned specs of your doors & windows and let when of the real pros give you an opinion. OR of course spend some time searching for an answer... does the manufacture of your window have installation specs? All I know is that many partition walls are built like yours judging from my search results. If it were me, I would have gone for stronger frames in the 1st place, BUT then again I make mistakes, maybe would have been in your exact situation and unless someone gave me a very convincing argument to demo newly done work, I'd leave it. BUT definitely ask them to put some blocking/brace in the stud bays next to your door frames. I've seen Steve suggest this to a few people. Even though that will be a tight fit in some places, the wall will move much less when closing the door. Marc

Andy, can you post a couple of pix that zoom in on JUST your door frame (+ 1 stud each side) and JUST your window frame (not seeing any jacks supporting inner header)? Also, what is the actual WEIGHT of your doors, and how many hinges are you planning? Steve

Sorry it's take such a while to take, and post these pics, but here they are finally. Close ups of the doors / windows as well as some of the new electrical work (including new sub-panel for the studio) and finished HVAC. Additionaly I posted a seperate message earlier on electrical code / low voltage (audio) cable runs that I felt warrented it's own thread. You can see it here.

Good news! The building inspector came yesterday and passed me on all three rough-in inspections - Framing, Electrical and Mechanical. He even commented on how well thought out everything was - yeay! The only bummer was that he had no interest in my conduit runs once he found out they were low-voltage - I say that since I spent a half day tearing down my previous work and reconfiguring them to have less turns (max 360 degrees total is allowed by code). Still it will be worth it when it comes time to pull cable through there I'm sure! Tomorrow I am meeting with the Drywall contractor and hope to get something scheduled with him really soon. The only potential delay though is that I have to wait for Dominion power to supply me with a new meter pan on the back of the house before the electrician can put the new panel in - it is in his opinion extremely dangerous as it stands - you can actually see the cables coming into the existing meter pan. Steve - let me know if you need closer up pictures than I posted on the window / door detail, or if you have any question; I know it's sometimes difficult to see what's going on in 2D. Thanks, Andy

Congats on passing all those inspections!!!!! Is the "meter pan on the back of the house" a new unexpected expence? When I had my new service panel and meter can installed, I had to make an appointent and wait 45 or so days for Florida Power & Light to provide the disconnect/reconnect to new can. Marc

congrats Andy! Yes, pulling cable is much easier with less obstacles like "turns" etc.

Hi andy, nice build post, it's been fun to follow along. I was wondering two things... knightfly asked to see specific close ups of your doors and windows, and I was wondering what he was alluding too... mine are built in a similar fassion. (though, since you passed building inspection, I am slightly relieved, though... I think some of the standards on this forum far exceed local building regs!!!) also, in a few pictures i can see double wall assemblies, are you planning on hanging a double door anywhere ? I've been looking for an answer to my threshold question, anywhere i can find one! http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=15 nice build! kevin

Hey Kevin - yes I will be doing two doors between the control room and performance room, and also between the PR and rest of house. The frames will be custom made by the carpenter to fit the 36" solid core mahogany doors I picked up from a Salvage yard last year. So lots of progress this weekend and last; and pics too! Last weekend I put in all the RSIC EXT04's and this weekend was itchy insulation time. Now it's really starting to take shape. I really started to notice first hand today the acoustic properties of FG insulation. I had my ipod going through some powered kardmon Kardmon speakers and they were cranked! I was also in the mood for Metal too. Stood by the speakers it was way loud, but as I put more and more insulation into the walls I was really noticing that i was struggling to hear it at the other end of the basement. Cool! Can't wait to see the actual isolation once rock goes up and doors go in! Anyhoo - here are the pics... Andy

Hey Andy, What's going on with them 2x4's, on there side at ceiling in pic P1000336.JPG That's your CR ceiling right? Marc

andy_eade wrote:

So lots of progress this weekend and last; and pics too!

Looking great, Andy! 8)

andy_eade wrote:

I had my ipod going through some powered kardmon Kardmon speakers and they were cranked! I was also in the mood for Metal too.

I want band names, Sir. :) --Keith :mrgreen:

Sorry I didn't get back sooner - a few things that bother me: http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/wind ... raming.htm This is the way to frame a window (or door, without the lower sill and jack studs) - notice the header across the top, the trimmers which SUPPORT the header, etc? The criteria is this - if only GRAVITY were acting on the frame, it would NOT fall down. Also, I'm amazed that your framing passed with no headers over doors or windows - I didn't know you could get away with that in ANY case. The proper way to build a header is either to get a 4x beam that's a "nominal" inch per foot of span, or build a laminate consisting of two 2x boards ON EDGE with 1/2" plywood sandwiched between them - a 3-0 opening needs at least a 4" header (nominal, as in 2x4's and 1/2 ply) - same with a 4-0 opening. Up to 6-0 opening needs double 2x6's, up to 8-0 opening needs 2x8's, etc. See the views in Fig.1 of the link above. Your inspector may have thought you would be putting standard INTERIOR grade doors in those openings, but solid core slabs are HEAVY. They make things sag before their time, they can tear standard length screws out, and they will bow single 2x4's just by hanging there on the hinges. I know it's a PITA at this point, but I would pull your insulation out where necessary and make these changes NOW, before it means a complete mess later. I covered this some time ago, here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=30559 But don't think I added it to the reference section - I'll rectify that if necessary. Scroll down about halfway on that page for the solid way to frame for doors - windows also, just add jacks/trimmers/sill. Again, sorry I didn't catch this earlier... Steve

Actually, the very page I linked to is already part of the REFERENCE section, under "Installing a door - anything I should keep in mind?" - OK, I hereby officially UN-apologise 8) (but I'm still sorry you'll need to back up a bit...) Steve

Yes Marc - that is a pre-existing soffit that covers a whole bunch of plumbing, electrical and duct work. It's unfortunate but there is no way around it. I was going to use RSICs in the CR too. However giving the limited ceiling height in 35% of this room (due to this soffit) I decided not to limit it further in this area by adding RSICs. I figured I would use them for the rest of the room but not on the soffit; and hope that the 2 foot air gap caused by the soffit (which I will be stuffing with FG) will improve the isolation somewhat. To put this into context; the 2x4's are only 6'9 from the ground. Once I add RSIC's, 3 layers of sheetrock and flooring, it'd probably be more like 6'6 - very tight and somewhat risky for taller visiters! This way I can keep it closer to 6'7 which is already bad enough! Not too itchy today thankfully. I may have gone overboard but it seemed to work. Noish mask, goggles, Baseball cap and an old snowboard jacket zipped all the way up, with the hood on and pulled tight around my face, and the cuffs tight around my gloves. I also found that wearing those disposable vinyl gloves underneath regular cowhide gloves kept it from getting in your hands. So if you don't mind looking like a big pratt I can highly recommened the added precaution if you want to avoid the itchies! :D

hey guys, i saw the post on headers i have been framing for about 10 years, and i thougth I would respectfully share a differing opinion on header board requirements. I hold an A class contractors license, and I have never seen a veneered header on a non load bearing or non exterior wall, even when supporting a solid core door. the most i have seen is a double 2x4 top plate. I went back to my IRC manual to double check myself, and there is absolutely no code pertaining to non load bearing door headers. there are multiple reasons: the drywall keeps the framing square, same as laying deck boards on deck framing, it makes the whole thing rigid by squaring it up, laying plywood on trusses creates the same effect. it would be impossible for the framing to sag without ripping itself loose from the drywall. The other reason is that the weight of the door will put pressure on the jack and king studs only 2 ways: down, and away from the hinge side. Down is impossible thanks to the bottom plate and underlying concrete, and away from the hinge side is also made impossible due to even a single 2x4 header. There is simply not enough pressure. just as a small kickstand will keep a 500 lb harly davidson from falling over. The top hinge bears the most pressure, and it is also the closest hinge to the header, which, yet again, eliminates the chances of warping or otherwise sagging. The only way for a solid core door to sag is for the screws to strip the wood, in which case, it would have been improperly installed, regardless of the framing. The only time a veneared header is crucial is when there is direct down pressure, from an overhead roof or floor. later, Mark :shock:

Hey Mark! Welcome aboard! Please stick around, as I'm sure it will be nice to have another framing guy around to consult now and then! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

So there's been lot's of progress since my last post. I finished up all the insulation and FSK paper on the exterior walls, the electrician got finished with the electrical panel (after the power company FINALLY came out and replaced the meter pan - only a 6 WEEK WAIT!). Then last week the carpenter came back out and beefed up the door headers y'all were concerned about, and also built be a Mike closet. Yesterday drywall began. The contractors (as I expected) had never worked on anything like this before, so I went through my game plan with them and gave them a summary of the main no-no's- asked them to leave me a 1/4" gap in the corners for caulk etc. It was after this I realized how important it is to a) be there and watch them, and b) be very clear and repeat the instructions as many times as are needed. What I had ended up with was a room where all the joints had a gap, and in the spirit of going above and beyond to please the customer; they had done a MINIMUM 1/4" which in some cases was more like 1/2". Any of you that have ever tried caulking a 1/2" gap will know how much it sucks and just how quick you'll get through a case of the stuff! Having started work at 6am yesterday; I finally got finished caulking at 11pm! Still - 1st layer of rock is up in the Control toom. So lesson learned. Today they are back and I am working right behind them with the caulking gun rather than waiting until a whole layer is up. Some pictures below of the last couple weeks progress. Enjoy - and hola if you notice anything that looks bad! Cheers! Andy

couple more...

Looking good Andy, big change since you started. The progress has to feel good :D

There's nothin' like drywall to make a room start to look like an actual room, eh? 8) Congratulations, Andy! Way to go, supervising the contractors like that. --Keith :mrgreen: