Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

HEY ANDY!!!!!!!!! Where are you!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hope everything is alright with you. Like a few others, was wondering where you been? Dying to see what progress you have made.

Apologies for the lack of response here. I am still alive and well. There has not really been much progress over the past 8 weeks down in the basement for a number of reasons. 1) I was on vacation to go visit my neice for 3 weeks in August. 2) I then had relatives come to stay with me right after I returned from the UK. Of course that also meant much tidying considering I had not been around for a while! 3) Before leaving, my roomate and I installed the last joist bay's worth of added mass. In doing so though we damaged an old phone cable that goes up into the kitchen, which was then shorting out all the phones on the house. It's taken me a few weeks to get that fixed so... 4)Oh, and did I forget to mention that I broke up with my g/f of 4 years? No... hmm well it's not really a factor slowing me down. But intersting news in my life nonetheless. I fugure that if I have a studio - who needs a girlfriend eh! :D So now I am back though, and it's now time to find me a carpenter to begin framing walls. As soon as that begins I will start posting pics again, since there's not really anything new to see just yet. Hope you are all well. I now need to go catch up on your threads to see what's going on with you guys... Andy

Good to see you again, Sir Andy! 8)

andy_eade wrote:

. . . did I forget to mention that I broke up with my g/f of 4 years? No... hmm well it's not really a factor slowing me down. But intersting news in my life nonetheless.

Oh wow -- I'm sorry to hear that, Andy. You have my condolences, and I'm sure those of others here as well. Studio construction is good therapy. :) --Keith :mrgreen:

Okay so this isn't just an attempt to keep me on page 1 - I am actually here with an update and question for you. So I have found a carpenter / handyman who is coming out to demo the staircase area, frame the first door way and drywall the existing wall frame by the Water heater / AC etc. If all goes well I will then be asking him to frame all of the walls for the entire project. We shall see however since he was a no-show this weekend. Here is the area I'm talking about: I've been reading up on the framing process to try to understand the detail of how to use the sway braces and put in fire stops. I figure I'm going to need to explain (likely by use of detailed diagrams) how he should be doing both since I'm not sure if it's something he's had to do before. This leads me on to my... Question: Being as my framing will sit about 12-14 inches in from the exterior walls (remember a few pages back when I decided it wouldn't be safe to build the walls on top of the portland cement that covers the drainage pipes for the sump system)- how does one use the sway braces? Can they still be used with this sized cavity? If not, how else does one secure the walls? Surely the bolts in the sole-plate are not enough to give the neccessary stability? So the plan is to have this first wall drywalled so that then the framing can be constrtucted for the entire studio, and then have my friends dad (drywall contractor) come in and do their thing. I'm hoping to now see some pretty quick progress. This should translate into lots of pics again soon! :D Thanks in advance, Andy

Glad to see you back in action, Andy! 8) If your inner leaf wall frames will be supporting the inner leaf ceiling, and you're that far away from your outer leaf wall, then you don't need sway braces. Your inner leaf framing won't collide with your outer leaf framing, so there's no need for resilient sway braces. Contractor didn't show up as scheduled and hasn't started yet? Did he even call? If I were you, I'd end the relationship right there. --Keith :mrgreen:

No he did at least call. His wife is pregnant so I totally understand his priorities right now. Family comes first always. So my ceiling will not be sitting in the walls, it will actually be hanging from RC's from the ceiling joists. Do I take it from your message that you only need the sway braces if it's likely to touch the outer leaf? I guess I'm worrying about him framing the walls using regular construction methods, which I'm thinking would mean he would attatch to the ceiling joists, which would in turn creat a flanking path by ceiling to the walls. I'm trying to understand how one creates a wall independantly from the ceiling construction without it falling over. I have a feeling I am missing something very simple here so please pardon my stupidity if so! :?

Hey Andy, Are you looking at pages 75, 77 and/or 248, 249, 250 in Rod's book refering to wall ceiling corner only, and then wondering how to apply a version to your situation? This is a good question over the 1 foot span t include fire stopping and good decoupling of walls/ceiling. :? Marc

yeah exactly. Sounds so much better phrased when you asked :)

Sounds so much better phrased when you asked

:D well that's good, usually when I get going I confuse my self and others with my own phrasing... Marc

Hey guys. So I’m back with more questions, following a couple of meetings with Carpenters over the last couple of days. Question 1: My original plan for the right hand (East) wall of the drum room was to add to layers of rock to the existing framing you see pictured below. And then frame a new wall 4 inches out to line up with the existing soffit: In talking with the carpenter yesterday he made a good point. I’m not trying to stop sound getting into the laundry / mechanical room, so much as stopping it from getting into the stairwell. So why not add another layer of rock to the stair case side, deal up any gaps on the staircase, and add 2 layers of rock to the area that will be demo’d. Then rather than frame a new wall 4” out, add my 3 layers of drywall to the existing framing and soffit. It would save some real estate in the room as well as un necessary labour and materials. I have added some labels in an attatchment below. What do you guys think? This would also then give me only 2 leaves rather than 3; which had been my concern back on page 12. I could even add a fourth layer of drywall if it would add anything, which would still be quicker and easier than the whole separate wall with 2 layers idea. Is this making any sense? Can anyone comment? Question 2: How on earth do these sway braces work? I’ve had two carpenters come in now to give me estimates, and I’m explaining to them that they absolutely cannot nail the wall framing to the ceiling joists as it will mechanically couple and cause a potential path for sound to be transmitted. I tell them that they will need to use Sway Braces, and they’re like “okay cool – how do they work”, at which point I’m lost. I’ve looked in Rods book for the detail of how they work and on here but can’t find anything. Can any explain to a simpleton such as I? I might need a very simple drawing for me to “get it”. =) Specifically I’m wondering how they attach to the ceiling joists (if that’s where they attach), and how many one needs per wall or certain length. To give some useful background here:- My ceiling will not sit-atop the walls, but will hang from RC’s inside the new rooms. Finally Question 3: Given that I was planning in having three layers of drywall on the inside leaf of the CR / Drum Room (North), if I have only 2 layers on the left (West) wall – how should that interconnecting detail on the corners work? Should it look like this only with step 6 missing? Finally, in other news, in a shocking change in strategy I have decided to go with Steve’s suggestion of framing the West wall as detailed below on my dreaded drainage area, with one small change: the change being that the wall will sit further out from the concrete wall such that the drywall will clear the seam between Portland and existing slab. Enough people have now seen this and feel comfortable that it’s not enough weight to cause settlement. By moving the wall a little further in I mitigate the risk of sound flanking through the pipe / Portland, as well resting some of the wall weight on the existing slab. I do have one more question about this though. So I guess this would be: Finally (for real this time) Question 4: In Steve’s diagram the 2x8 is exposed beyond the drywall and into the finished room. How would one finish this so that it doesn’t look… (for want of a better word) “crap” =) Sand and paint? That’s all for now. Once I have these last nagging questions answered I can have them begin the work. They think a few days only for framing, and then I can begin electrical rough in and cable running. This weekend I plan to do measuring / chalk-lines etc. Thanks as always for your opinions / expertise. Andy

So, in short, your stairwell becomes a "sound lock." I like it. :-) The only possible disadvantage I see is that you may have to use more mass material (drywall) in the stairwell / sound lock area than you otherwise would with two parallel walls. But, as you've said, it might be easier nevertheless. Be sure to analyze with extreme scrutiny the area in that sound lock that will need to be sealed and beefed up. There may be hidden or less blatantly obvious spots that will be difficult for you to beef up. Remember the "weakest link" rules. :? Not sure about the "wall along french drain" plan changes... :roll: I'm not against it but I'm not for it. I'll wait to see what others say about it. Hey, Andy -- if you keep this up, you're going to have to do actual work on this project very soon! ;-) Glad to see you're back in action. 8-) --Keith :mrgreen:

No not exactly. I probably didn't explain it very well and I think you are thinking of something else. Mind you I do kind of like that idea, and if my final isolation isn't up to the level I would want, it's always an option for me to enclose the stairwell with a door at the top (house level). Rather the change I am considering is this: Original plan: Add 2 layers of drywall to the existing framing and soffit shown in the picture. Then frame a new wall 4 inches out from this and add 3 further layers of drywall. Proposed Plan: Add 1 extra layer to the small, triangle-shaped, exposed piece of drywall on the stair-case. (The area with an arrow in the picture above). Seal up the gaps around the perimeter and each stair (from under neath the stairs as seen in pic). Then add 3 - 4 layers of sheet rock to the existing framing / sofffit. Thus saving about 8 inches or so of space, and quite a bit of material / labor. Am I explaining better now? Also wondering if you or anyone has any insight on Question 2 and the sway braces. Spent most of the weekend updating my floorplan with measurements, as well as starting to right a wall by wall, (paint by numbers approach) detailed plan for the carpenters / drywall contractors that will explain exactly what should be where. I will post it up on here as soon as it's complete. That's all for now. Talk with you soon! Andy

2 - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download.php?id=7991 check the inset, at (B) , see if that helps. If not, http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=165 (one of my home-grown's) http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=210 (scroll down to Apr. 19, one pic shows Aaron's version installed) Commercial - http://www.silentsource.com/rsic_prods.html#RSICCWBxx Scroll down to where it says "De-coupled wall system) As to the exposed 2x8 - if you're gonna move the wall inward, why not just bring the drywall all the way to the floor (minus space for backer rod/caulk)??!? (as in, don't have the sole plate sticking out like that since it'll be better supported... Steve

Thanks Steve. I like the one's that you suggested and Aaron created best. These would seem to work best in my situation given that I framing one of my walls some 10 inches in from the concrete wall, and many of the others are interior and free-standing - I'm thinking I will need to be connect all of my walls to the ceiling joists as Aaron using this, or a similar device. Do you happen to know if there is a commerical solution such as this available on the shelf? I looked at Mason Industries being as Rod had mentioned them in his book. Oh, and btw - I am framing in wood - just in case that makes any difference to your suggestion. Many Thanks, Andy p.s. Editing to add that 2 hours later I found these guyshave some sway braces, but in talking to the rep, he seems to think (as do some others in the AVSforum) that sway braces wont add anything if you're not floating your floor. Thoughts? Should I just have them use regular construction for the walls given that I am niot floating the floor due to ceiling heighy limitations?

I don't agree with the no sway idea in your case - if you hard frame to your upper floor, then you'll have a direct flanking path between any footfall noise above and your inner wall frame below, which may (not sure, but wouldn't take the chance) lower the isolation between studio and living space. If you keep a gap between top plates of studio walls and upper floor, the sway brace will be a locator/stabilizer for your inner wall frame (done as I show in the sketch) WITHOUT direct coupling between upper floor and wall and lower floor - then, if you hang your ceiling on RSIC's INSIDE these inner walls and use backer/caulk at joints and do NOT run the wall layers hard against the upper floor joists EITHER, you'll lessen the structure-born transmision between elements of the construction. Finally, using pallet strapping on the inside of your walls will help keep the insulation against the wallboard, eliminating slip-down AND providing damping. This damping would also extend to your frame somewhat. The end result should be that any flanking would need to travel down your outer concrete walls (damped by earth), thru the floor slab and back up thru the walls in order to radiate into your studio space. Between earth damping of your outer walls AND your slab, I doubt this would be much of a concern at any normal volume levels. Doing a heavy fill in the ceiling over the RSIC supported drywall layers, combined with the iso that's contributed by the RSIC clips, (and were you gonna do the betwee-joist beef? Don't recall) should combine to minimise both footfall and other noise in either direction. Any sound flanked thru your concrete INTO the inner wall frame will be damped by insulation and STOPPED by the gap at the top of the wall. I'm not sure why anyone does NOT think this is a good idea... Steve

I was wondering about the 2 by 8 baseplate.... In the diagram, all it shows is a sill seal (I'm presuming to be that foam stuff). Do to the usually irregularities in concrete surfaces, and perhaps maybe even some in the baseplate, should there be acoustic sealant somewhere there too (but I suppose there wouldn't be room for backer rod?)? Perhaps I've missed something in the design; I'm also not sure why the baseplate extends below the sheetrock in the first place; is this not a compromise? Is it just so that the load of the wall gets spread out more over the thin concrete over the drain tile? K

So I just got off the phone with kinetcs to get a quote on their "off the shelf" CWCA sway braces. Their recomendation is that they be installed 6 - 12" from the end of the wall and be installed no less than every 48". They run at $31 per unit. YIKES! :shock:

Edit: Subsequently called Mason Ind. (from Rod's book) and their WIC clips are only $15.50 each. I think I may use those instead. But rather than use them as pictured in the PDF, I would rotate them 90 degrees and atatch them to the top plate of the wall framing and the underneath of the ceiling joist. They also have theAB716 but I don't think that will work for my case.

Question: Do I need them throught my entire space - for all walls? Or can I just use them on walls 1, 2, 7 and 8 - being as this is the room that will have all the noise generated in it? p.s. Beleive it or not the "no sway" advocate was non other than Brian at Audio Alloy. Follow the thread here.

Ooooh, and I just noticed I joined the forum a year ago today! Yeay - it's my Birthday!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Those braces look like the could be done yourself. Some angle, chop saw,and a drillpress. I spent quite a few years working as a welder/fabricator and those could be knocked out in a few hours.You can probably spend what you would for 2 or 3 of their braces and make more than you need ! Glad your back at it Andy :D

So I have just finished putting together a document (attatched) for the contractors detailing wall by wall what my detailed requirements are for construction methods etc. My goal being to give them clear direction up front, along with metrics to which I can hold them accountable. The only detail missing that i have to add is an eleveation of the firestop which I will be adding to the appendix. I would really welcome any feedback from you guys. - Does anything look wrong? - Does it have too little / too much detail? - Is there anything you would want to know as a contractor that isn't in here? The numbers all correspond to the numbers on the floor plan posted earlier. Many thanks guys. Andy

Jammin - exactly; I tried to design those so off-the-shelf brackets could be used, with maybe just a hacksaw or sawzall, etc. Andy - I read thru most of the "argument" between Dennis and Brian, and as near as I can tell all Brian's saying about sway braces is that he's not convinced they help but probably don't hurt. However, he seems to be approaching it from a standpoint of that or nothing, and strictly from an isolation point of view - I'm approaching it from a "you don't want this wall to fall over or move much" standpoint, and advocating ZERO contact under normal circumstances. Hopefully I remembered to include the fact that, even with the neoprene inserts, you should leave a gap between the upper plate and the neoprene that's glued to the bracket - this would be ESPECIALLY true for those with trusses above, so you don't support them where they don't WANT to be supported. Your upper wall sections need to be supported every 4 feet or so laterally ANYWAY, and you definitely do NOT want a HARD contact, so where's the question? :wink: As to your bottom of wall question - if you're moving the wall inward, then I would just use a wider plate as before but build so your INSIDE is "normal", IOW bottom plate INNER edge flush with studs, run wallboard to within 3/8" of floor, backer and caulk per layer. Even tho the innermost part of the wall would be over solid concrete, the wider plate would still help stabilize things by spreading the weight distribution somewhat - Have your PDF printed out, hopefully work won't be as irritating tonite and I'll get a chance to read/mark it up... Steve

Still hoping to get some feedback on my plan. I see people downloading but not posting - come on peeps! =) In other news I took a look at Home Depot last night to see if they have anything I can use for Sway Braces. I did find a couple of options. This one is designed for holding fence posts I think, but I was thinking that maybe by adding neoprene to the corner, and using one either side of the framing once could support the wall. They run about $3.50 each. (Picture to be taken and posted when I get home later) Then I was just looking at the Stanley website and noticed these too: Which could work if I added some neoprene no? Also still wondering if you guys think they need to be used on all my walls, or just walls 1, 2, and 7 for the drum room (The source of most noise). Thanks, and hope to hear from some of you soon. Andy

I have updated my plan with a few new details and adjustments- 26 people downloaded the last version, but zero people gave me any feedback on what they thought. :( Ummmm - please? pretty please? I guess at the least I'm just wondering if you think it's enough info for a carpenter / drywall contractor to follow. And does anything jump out at you as inaccurate? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Andy, I'm still trying to find time to read your plan but life isn't cooperating just yet. I'm hoping that night shifts won't be as "A-holes & Elbows" as the last couple weeks have been. I'll get to it as soon as I can, but can't promise anything beyond that. At this point in time, anything I do subtracts from time that can be spent on paying projects, it's just a fact of life... Steve

andy_eade wrote:

In talking with the carpenter yesterday he made a good point. I’m not trying to stop sound getting into the laundry / mechanical room, so much as stopping it from getting into the stairwell. So why not add another layer of rock to the stair case side, deal up any gaps on the staircase, and add 2 layers of rock to the area that will be demo’d. Then rather than frame a new wall 4” out, add my 3 layers of drywall to the existing framing and soffit. It would save some real estate in the room as well as un necessary labour and materials. I have added some labels in an attatchment below. What do you guys think? This would also then give me only 2 leaves rather than 3; which had been my concern back on page 12. I could even add a fourth layer of drywall if it would add anything, which would still be quicker and easier than the whole separate wall with 2 layers idea. Is this making any sense? Can anyone comment?

Well - it all depends on the ceiling of the laundry/mechanical room I would suppose. Beef up the staircase - and the existing ceiling becomes the weak link. Beef up the laundry ceiling and the stairwell wallbecomes the weak link. Seems to me that you would have to do both.

How on earth do these sway braces work? I’ve had two carpenters come in now to give me estimates, and I’m explaining to them that they absolutely cannot nail the wall framing to the ceiling joists as it will mechanically couple and cause a potential path for sound to be transmitted. I tell them that they will need to use Sway Braces, and they’re like “okay cool – how do they work”, at which point I’m lost. I’ve looked in Rods book for the detail of how they work and on here but can’t find anything. Can any explain to a simpleton such as I? I might need a very simple drawing for me to “get it”. =)

Well I have to be honest - I've never held or worked with the sway brace from Kenetics - and seeing the cost mentioned below - I probably never will. BUT - I have worked with and held in my hands the braces in my book from Mason Industries (which I HAVE to believe can be bought a whole lot cheaper than the Kenetics product). The WIC braces from Mason work on the same principles we all know and love - which is that the material must be properly compressed (not too much - not too little) in order to properly isolate. These babies are really pretty sweet - and are preloaded in the factory, with the degree of compression of the isolator determining the center frequency of the product as a whole. They are (quite simply) 2 "U" shaped pieces of metal - with each having an extended leg - which then have a piece of ribbed rubber compressed between the 2 of them when they are assembled. If you look at figure 4.29 in the book - you'll see the little rib edges in the plate style (WCL Furring Style Sway Brace) - and I will assure you that the WIC has the same slots cut into them. The WIC clips are what I reccomend for walls - the others are generally used for commercial ceiling applications.

Specifically I’m wondering how they attach to the ceiling joists (if that’s where they attach), and how many one needs per wall or certain length.

The WIC clips attach to the studs between 2 adjacent framed walls - or to Angle Iron clips that are attached to concrete if the new wall is next to a foundation. These conditions are detailed in Chapter 10 - figures 10.9, 10.12, 10.13, 10.31a and (finally) 10.14. Typically these are installed on 4' centers - but this also may be dependant on local seismic conditions - so check with the local authorities to be sure. BTW - be certain when installing these that you do not load them up - meaning you do not install them under stress.... you want to gently float them into place, and then firmly fasten them - this will ensure that they remain loaded exactly as the manufacturer intended.

Given that I was planning in having three layers of drywall on the inside leaf of the CR / Drum Room (North), if I have only 2 layers on the left (West) wall – how should that interconnecting detail on the corners work?

Yup - you just loose sequence 6. Rod