Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread

andy_eade wrote:

Beleive it or not the "no sway" advocate was non other than Brian at Audio Alloy. Follow the thread here.

Andy, I read through the thread - and do not see it the way you do.... I do see Brian state things like:

So, bob, i'm rambling, i hope you are enjoying my blather, but my question about the sway braces is this: what's the mass on the spring, and what's the spring force? Will they help mid/high frequencies? almost certainly. Will they make the overall assembly less mechanically rigid, reducing the mechanical force available for resisting motion caused by the air cavity, and reducing the ability of GG to control resonance in those walls? I don't know. answer: i don't know, i guess go with your feeling on the matter, but my general (and polite) skepticism towards the easy-sells that are various decoupling products has been noted.

and:

a) (pro for the use of this measure), middle and high frequency transmission will certainly be reduced. that noted, i'm not sure how much mid/high can make it up a gg wall - not much with the damping so high b) (con for the use of this measure), lets say you reduced the stiffness to zero - perfectly soft decoupling - then you have no mechanical stiffness left to resist the motion of the air spring, and low-freq damping may suffer answer: i don't know, you have to choose based on the information offered, i guess

Which to my eye is not quite the same as saying Beleive it or not the "no sway" advocate was non other than Brian at Audio Alloy. Respectfully, Rod

Finally got a few minutes to read your PDF - just a couple minor things - Page 2, section #8 - Resilient Channel is NOT the same as "hat channel" - if you use this term when talking to a typical construction guy, you'll get solid steel hat channel which is NOT resilient. If you're referring to Dietrich's "RC-2", this is a double-legged RESILIENT channel that, at first glance, LOOKS like hat channel but actually has a bunch of little slots cut into the two legs so it is RESILIENT. If this is what you mean, be SPECIFIC by manufacturer and part number and a PICTURE - otherwise, unless you're dealing with WSDG or RBDG for your studio build, (or Rod :wink: ) you'll be SCREWED, and not in a GOOD way. For an example of the pain you could be in for, check out this http://www.recording.org/ftopict-22469.html I'm really NOT trying to be a raving lunatic on this, but this is a COMMON mistake because almost ZERO local contractors will know NOT to make this mistake unless you lead them by the nose to the EXACT materials you must use, and I felt it was time for a more current reminder of the pitfalls... In that same paragraph you mention using BOTH RC and Green Glue - I hadn't had time to read all of Brian's excellent contributions/tests yet, so went looking. I think you'll be happier with your choice after looking at two similar tests, one with and one without RC - at the lowest tested frequency (80 hZ) they're virtually identical, but for the "mid-bass" region apparently the combination of BOTH RC and GG is notably better. Good plan. Ceiling - your terms of vertical and horizontal need to be changed, perhaps to east-west or north-south, to avoid confusion. That's all I saw that could be improved... Steve

Steve - thank you so much for taking the time. That is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. As we all know with music - sometimes your too close on to something to notice a significant detail like that. Product names / descriptions is an excellent suggestion and I will make the changes your recommend. Thanks also Rod for your feedback and info on the Sway Braces. Apologies also if I mis-interpreted Brian's comments at the AVS forum. Out of the three carpenters estimates I received, I think I will be going with the middle one. Mainly due to the fact that he seemed the most competent and understood VA building code in great detail. He noticed at least 4 code "problems" or potential problems when looking at my existing structure that the others didn't. I'll keep you posted. Hopefully work can begin in the next 2- 3 weeks. Andy

Sic 'em, Git 'em, Bite 'em, KILL... :wink:

In talking with the Rep at Mason (a very worthewhile experience and I can highly recommend their proffesionalism), we decided that given my application; that their AB716 angle support brackets would work better than the WIC clips. This is because I simply need a way to support the wall from falling in either direction, by connecting it from the top plate of the wall to the underneath of the ceiling joists. The brackets run at $13 per foot and standard size is 4 foot long, and you would need one for each side of the wall. These items are made to order, and you can specify the size you require. In talking to the carpenter, we have decided to fabricate our own (since we cannot wait 3 weeks) out of angle iron, and I have found a couple of places online that sell neoprene that I will begin calling tomorrow to find out how quickly they can ship. [url]http://www.unirubber.com/sheet.htm http://www.nedc.com/mated.phtml#Super%2 ... r%20Sheets http://www.rubbercal.com/Neoprene.html[/url] I also want to find out if they can pre-cut it into 36x2" strips to save me the job. Hope this may be of help to anyone else looking for sway braces. Andy

in other news, I scoped out angle iron at Home Depot today it runs about $10 per 36" length, then add about $3 per strip for the neoprene - not a bad saving! Also... Having re-read Rod's book again last night I am considering the benefits of not having the booth / soundlock, and just having one large room and the control room, with a double door entrance - somthing like this: benefits: - More Real Estate / less wasted space - Easier for my band to jam - Easier to resell house. I mean a sound proof room is great for home theater- but not many people need a vocal booth in there! - Less Materials / Labour = Less Cost! So I have to decide on that today before the carpenter comes out tonight and begins snapping chalk lines. Let me know what your opinion is if you have one on the matter. Thanks, Andy

Sorry about all the posts today, but there's lots going on. So having talked with the Crapenter (typo, but decided to keep it anyway) and John about the one room approach I think that is they way to go. Also I just got off the phone with United Rubber in NY who were very helpful. They will custom cut Neoprene to the size you need. For my purpose I am looking for a roll of 3/8" x1.5" x 100ft. Now here is my question: United produce the 55-65 durometer rated stuff which is what I originally asked for. However he said they also produce stuff which is used by steel-framers for vibration control which is a closed cell product with an adhesive backing, but it is very soft. Given that my walls should float between the braces and they should not be under load - which neoprene should I be going with? Is the 55 - 65 rated stuff going to be too hard? I mean that is what is used for floating floors given that it will be under compression. What about my application - there shouldn't really be any compression right? Any ideas anyone?

First of all, I'm not in favor of the DIY wall brace concept. Sorry. I just think there's too much opportunity for error. Suppliers specialize in making these things and they've got the test results to prove their worthiness. Far be it for me to think I can come close to duplicating their success with a couple off off-the-shelf Home Depot brackets and some rubber I found on the Internet... :roll: That being said... If you insist on going down this DIY road, you need to understand that the rubber must be slightly compressed all the time -- if not, it's nothing more than fusing your leaves together, which obviously defeats the purpose of trying to isolate them in the first place! :shock: Bona fide, quality-made anti-sway braces are designed that way, out of the box. There's a slight compression to them already. That's what makes them magical. (No actual magic, of course -- it's pretty straight forward.) When you're driving your car, your shock absorbers act as springs because they're under some compression already. Watch a parked car as people get into it, and it bounces a little. (In my case, quite a bit! :lol:) Andy, my vote is that you wait a couple of weeks to get the good stuff and do it right from the start. You've waited and/or been delayed by unfortuante discoveries this long -- why rush on this critical and "unfixable if you get it wrong" component of your plan? :roll: We're not talking about a paint color here -- we're talking about an integral part of the skeleton of your project. Get this wrong, and you're quite probably f*&%ed. :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, I totally understand and appreciate your reluctance to use an untested product. I think that's one of the principles of this forum if I'm not mistaken - don't go with untested theories or those without supporting data. I guess the only reason I have been entertaining the idea is because I wouldn't be using one of the products that are already under slight compression. (Such as the DNSB) The guy from Mason talked me out of using the WIC clipsand was recommending I use these instead. As you can see from the picture they are pretty basic in their construction. One basically adds one on each side of the wall framing (I'm guessing as you said under slight compression). The only question mark really is over what durometer rating is too stiff for this. Both United and Capital Building Supplies offer the 60 durometer stuff that is used for vibration control in steel framing, but I have to imagine this is too stiff to provide enough compression. Both companies can also provide softer products too and I'm wondering if that's the way to go. After all, like you said if there is not any compression I'm just fusing the walls to the ceiling and providing mechanical coupling. The Mason Ind versions will run me just over $1000 for one room. Home grown one's will run me about $375 for the same quantity (20 x 4ft lengths). What to do...[/url]

also just noticed that Kinetics offer an idenitcal product. They actually specify that they are using 1/2" thick SCE 41 closed cell expanded elastomer, which I beleive is what I was looking at earlier today from this supplier. Have I convinced you yet Keith? :)

Hmmmmmm... Maybe. :roll: ;-)

I got pictures!!!! Yes - major progress today. Thew crew arrived around 8am, and just left here around 9.30pm - damn! These guys were hard workers. Only a couple of mishaps along the way: First one I anticipated. I called the forman around 4pm to check that they were mudding each layer of drywall to find out that they were not. (Surprise surprise). They graciously removed it all and started again per my spec document. That's exactly why I wrote it, and the contract is contingent upon construction being completed to those standards written. Second one is in picture #3. As you can see the used one baseplate spanning both rooms. I left the foreman a Voice mail tonight asking that they correct this first thing tomorrow. Other than that they have done a superb job as far as I can see. The firestop detail looks good, and the sway braces we made seem great. Okay- enough nattering - here are the pics. Please take a look through wit a critical eye - maybe you will notice problems I am missing. Andy.

a few more...

Aloha Andy, Congratualtions on your progress! I'm sure it's exciting to be at this stage after so many obstacles along the way.

Please take a look through with a critical eye - maybe you will notice problems I am missing.

In regard to your instructions, were you by any chance planning to use any insulation/mineral wool inside the drywall areas? [drywall leave#1 - staircase.JPG, firestop.JPG, drum room.JPG] Aloha 8)

Hi Kendale, Thanks for writing - particularly given all that you've had going on lately!! So there will be insulation, but it's not as it seems in the pics. If you look at the floor of drywall leave1.jpg you will notice another 2x4 baseplate on the floor. This will be the 2nd leave and the cavity between this and the drywall you see in the picture will be stuffed with insulation. Does this and everything else look okay to you? BTW - 8am and they were here on the dot. I mentioned the baseplate issue and they're going to cut it. These guys are too good to be true. Anyone need a contractor in VA? :D Andy

Andy, Congrats on some "real work" getting done correctlyso far. I'm 4 out of 4 for hiring guys whose work has been done incorrectly.... feel lucky. Maybe you're better and interviewing contractors then me :oops:

So there will be insulation, but it's not as it seems in the pics. If you look at the floor of drywall leave1.jpg you will notice another 2x4 baseplate on the floor. This will be the 2nd leave and the cavity between this and the drywall you see in the picture will be stuffed with insulation.

Looking at the pic and reading you're statement I'm not getting it. :oops: Maybe it's just me. :roll: Or is this insulation going to be on the inside of room covered in fabric? Marc

Framing complete as of 12.30pm today. Here are the updated pics:

a couple more:

Hey Marc, See pic 5 and all should make sense. The reason it looks confusing is becasue I had to add drywall to the inside of the studs as the hot water heater and A/C were too close to the framing to add three layers of drywall to the otherside. So, the inside was drywalled instead, a new wall framed about 7.5 inches in, and the cavity will be stuffed with insulation. As far as the contractor luck goes, given my bad luck until now with leaks, termites, pee pee contractors etc - it's about time I got some good luck! I'll light some candles for you too though - I know you could do with some too! All the best, Andy

AHHH, I scanned through all the pics in your thread. I think I got it. You will have no drywall on the "water heater" side of the 2x4 wall. You are having drywall on the stair side of same 2x4 wall. Stairs are kind of above or in line with water heater. Since you've got outer leaf drywall on both sides of same 2x4 wall, you've figured out a way to complete the seal of outer leaf between the 2x4 studs at the same angle of stairs (the angle which drywall is cut in pics)... RIGHT? Am I still off target? BUT if not how are you sealing that gap between drywall on either side of 2x4 wall... did you put brace (dead man or block) 2x4's in at same angle? Marc

I don't think the doorways or window openings were framed correctly... Look carefully at the illustrations on this page and compare that to what you have. --Keith :mrgreen:

Good eye Keith, Then again it looks as if this guys are toe nailing the studs in, not tipping the walls into place. Maybe there are a few more peices here and there to go in yet. PLUS looking at Andy's pic Nov2006 002.jpg, see how the jack studs from either 2x4 wall directly line up under the window... were suppose to stagger them, even in double walls if we can. This improves the AIR and gives better iso. Not enough to redo if that were the only problem, but it looks like Andy has some pretty wimpy headers for windows and doors AS IS. Andy... if you are building heavy duty doors with weight and a good seak, then I think you'd want better headers then that. Then again, Andy is not building for hurricanes or earthquakes :twisted: Marc

Thanks guys. Yeah I will ask them about that - after all they are the ones coming back to mount the doors and windows. They have seen both and have a good idea of the weight and size of both of them. Not sure if you recall but the doors are solid core doors (the type you find in office buildings), and the window is a pre-made Acoustic Solutions window. I guess I missed out on the detail of staggering the jack studs. That is my bad - I did not know that nor put it in my spec document that they had to follow.

So I'm starting to figure out how I want to run cable from the CR to the studio. The question is whether I use stage snakes or wall plates. I'm thinking that the argument for using the stage snakes (I was thinking about 2 or 3 of these EWI PSPX 8-4 )is that there will be less of a whole in the drywall - basically 2 or 3 small holes that I can seal nicely with acoustical sealant. I have a EWI insert snake that I was very impressed with so... What do you guys think? Obviously Wall plates look a littel more pro, but with the snakes I can bring then in at different ends of the room and, like I said, I'm wondering if there is benefit from having less openings in the drywall. Thanks, Andy

Hmmm... Might be a good standalone question to post in the "Installationi and Wiring" forum. I know there are some folks who visit that forum more often than this one. :) --Keith :mrgreen: