Cyeazel's project studio...... planning and preparing

Thanks again Steve. I'll look into the insurance info/situation tommorrow. Hopefully this whole thing won't get to the point where I'm in the mayors face but you never know. What makes this even more frustrating is that the engineer won't provide the ''sealed and signed" documents unless I have a permit. Otherwise, he will still rate my floor for me, but I won't get the signed paperwork because they want to watch their butts in case something were to happen. :roll:

Hey cyeazel, Nice try with the "if the building doesn't exist, then can I build without a permit" angle! :lol: This is just one of those things that you'll just have to continue to escalate, gently but firmly, until you get the results you need. You're doing the right thing. Keep at it. Sometimes doing the right thing is difficult, and when it is, sometimes the reward is greater. Corny, I know, but it's true. Try to get a parcel number from an old property tax bill or the deed of trust. The building department may the record under the wrong street name or something stupid like that. Also, are you sure you're within the city limits? If not, maybe it's the county you need to be dealing with...?

Hey Keith. Thank you too for the advice. Doing the right thing isn't corny, it's admirable. It is harder at times though for sure. I didn't anticipate this part of my project being this big of a pain, but what can you do. In terms of being in the city limits, I am for sure. When I talked to the city, they didn't have anything for me so they referred me to the Township building dep't. The township didn't have any info either so they referred me to the Cook county building dep't. The first time I talked to Cook county, they said no, we don't have anything and they reffered me back to the Township. Finally after going through this cycle a few times, another lady from the township dep't said that any records they would have would be long gone anyways because they dispose of them 7 years after the building is built. My building was built in 1969. This lady then referred me back to the county again so I tried, and I got the same answer there too. I can't remember exacty who and from what building dep't she was from, but I remember one lady saying to me "What you are looking for is a long shot, good luck." Not exactly the news I was hoping for.

I just reread your posts to remind myself of what you're seeking. You're looking for plans, drawings, etc., of a building circa 1969. I agree that you're going to have trouble with that -- in fact, you're probably better off giving up on that quest! :( So, let's see if I understand the dilemma... The engineer won't stamp without a permit, and you can't get a permit without an engineer's stamp... Right? I think the engineer has this backwards. :roll: ...Or we're not understanding what the engineer needs. Perhaps the engineer needs either detailed architectural/engineering drawings or needs to conduct measurements and tests on the building itself in order to put his stamp on the plans... :?: I'm out of my league here, but maybe the engineer can assume some "worst case scenarios" in terms of what is already built, then the improvements you're proposing can be considered in that context. If there are any potential weaknesses, then maybe retrofit reinforcements can be proposed, whether necessary or not, "just in case." :roll: His job is to make sure nobody gets squashed. Surely there has to be a way for him to have that assurance. Surely he's dealt with existing construction without the luxury of historical documentation. Hang in there!

Sorry for the confusion. I'll try and explain it again. Keith, you pretty much are right on with the situation. What I meant to say before about the engineer is that he would still come out and do an inspection for me with or without drawings (drawings would make it a lot easier obviously), it's just that he won't do the official "sign and seal" unless I have a permit. He would still give me the results but I wouldn't be able to submit anything "official" to the city. The whole tracking down existing construction drawings really had more to do with whether or not the city had any record of what exists. The fact that they don't have any existing records just made me wonder how they'd (the city) know whether or not any new construction hadn't always been there, therefore, avoiding any code violations. I do want to abide by codes, I was just seeing for sure what my situation meant.

Perhaps I can clarify that for you... And I hope I'm correct about this. Codes are "fluid" -- they change over time, typically to be more restrictive. Whether or not your building was built to code back in 1969 isn't as relevant as what code says today about what you are going to build today. You will not be expected to bring the entire building up to today's codes. You will, however, be expected to bring all of your new construction up to today's codes -- and there might be a few things in the existing construction that will need to be addressed. A good example of this is residential construction in my area -- any construction permit (even a reroofing permit) requires that smoke alarms be installed in all sleeping areas, even though they may not have been required when the house was built. It seems you're in a classic "egg vs. chicken" scenario. :( Perhaps your engineer will will sign and seal for your plans that you will then submit to the city to get a permit...? :roll:

Yep, it looks like I'm leaning toward that option. I would like something signed and sealed to be able to submit so I think I'm gonna go ahead and have the engineer out and then give the results to the city. I will also abandon the search for existing drawings. Thanks for that advice Keith. I just wanted to make sure I understood all my options seeing as how I'm pretty new at all of this. Thanks again Keith and Steve.

Bryan Giles, if you happen to come across this, I have a question for you. I remember reading a while back that you had used some of that GP4 tri-ply roofing mat for your floor ( or walls, can't remember for sure). Anyways, I was just wondering how that worked out. Were you mainly using that stuff as a barrier or was it supposed to aid in "floating" somehow? What made you decide to use that stuff in the first place? I came across a cheap roll of it and just wanted to know if you were pleased with the results in your studio. My name is Chris by the way :)

Hey Chris... I used it as sound barrier. Worked out very well as a resonance dampener. What made me decide to use it was 2 things, it is rubber based and it is a different medium (remember the theory of changing the material sound travel through, altering the resonance of the waves and aiding in the depreciation of the Amplitude of the sound wave as it travesl through the verious mediums. It was $37 bucks a roll and worth a try. It works great :)

Thanks for the reply. So how did you fasten the rubber mat layer. Did you just glue it or did you use fasteners. If you glued it, did you put glue on both sides or just one side? Sorry to keep nagging about this, I'm just curious and trying to figure out why sometimes rubber is a good thing to use and other times (at least according to this forum) it should be avoided. Am I correct in concluding that rubber matting or sheets are great for a barrier and damping but not so much for floating? Do you still need to worry about compression and durometer and stuff like that when it is used as a barrier or for damping? Or is that really only for floating things?

No, glue, just alid in place, laid the next sheet of particle board and screwed that layer in......

When used that way, you don't have to worry about durometer, etc - it's merely another layer of mass, with (as Bryan said) different properties. Not that it's available (or reasonably priced) but an even better choice for this might be some sort of BUTYL sheeting; has a LOT more damping capability than neoprene or rubber. If this is a "sorta" floated floor, (any air space between it an main floor), be sure to put rockwool and/or fiberglass in the cavities, enough for medium compression when the first upper layer is laid; otherwise, major boomy... Steve

Thanks guys for the answers. I didn't think it would be used for floating, but I just wanted to be sure. So when rubber is used for lining window frames or between washers and screws or on wall plates etc, that is more for damping rather than the "spring effect" right? Steve, I thought about lining one side of that matting with butyl too, but I didn't do anything yet because I still wasn't confident enough in my soundproofing knowledge. I'm pretty sure I'd have enough butyl to do it. If I were to do the butyl rope/rubber roofing combo, do you recommend full coverage of the rubber mat with butyl or would partial coverage or strips of butyl be enough? Sorry, long post, but since we're on the topic of rubber here, I thought I'd pick your brains about another product we sell here at work that struck me as a possible candidate for aid in studio construction. I've got some pics below. Anyway, this is actually a head rest for a corpse ( I know, weird, but that's what we do here --- funeral/cemetery industry). I talked with the company who actually makes these things for us on the phone to get some info on the rubber. The rubber is nitrile, which I'm told is similar to neoprene and EPDM. The durometer is 80....., and the shore is A. The dimensions are difficult to describe so hopefully the pics will help clear the confusion, but basicaly, it is 6" long, 5" wide, and 4.25" high. However, as you can see in the photos, the shape is not just a standard rectangle. There are curves and stuff. The skinnier section towards the middle is 2" wide, and 1 7/16" deep. Hopefully the pics will make more sense of this.

I was thinking that these could be possible candidates for floating a floor (If I decide to go that route obviously). Still learning and figuring out and planning but if you guys think that these things might possibly be of some use, let me know. I know that there are still many factors to be taken into consideration before making a definate yes or no decision. Just want to know if anything right off the bat tells you that these rubber head rests would for sure not work or if you see some potential in them. :)

My take on that is forget it; it's so damn hard already to calculate cross-section, thickness, compression percentage, puck size and spacing when using straight-sided standard thickness rubber pucks, I can't even imagine getting it right using something as convoluted as those things; unless of course you're planning on opening up a karaoke studio that specializes in Jerry Garcia covers; then, you could brag about the fact that they are actually recording on top of "Dead Head Rests", or something :roll: I'm sorry, but all the "found" materials you want to utilize just make my head ache, especially when I realize how much time it takes to even make a half-way intelligent comment . Maybe if you cut the rests into two equal pieces by slicing thru one in the center where it's thinnest - then you could use the wide part as the base, the narrow part in contact with the floating floor frame, and if you were to test them like I outlined in Aaron's thread (floating floor, basement - found in REFERENCE section) it MIGHT work. The key word here is MIGHT. Only YOU can test these for deflection and TRY it; if it doesn't work, don't be surprised. It's your time and effort, so you're the one who has to decide whether it's worth the attempt... Steve

Okay, point taken. Sounds like a waste of time. Not really at all into Jerry Garcia.

Not really at all into Jerry Garcia Me too (sorry Jerry, you prob'ly wouldn't like MY music either) :?

I'm realizing I'm getting nowhere fast. I'm making my best efforts to plan, be patient, research etc, but I feel as if I'm just going in circles. Maybe I'm being too anal about deciding how to proceed. It just seems the more and more I read, the consequence of the tiniest error in planning and/or construction can be devastating. Maybe I'm taking on more than I'm able. Seems like I can't even get an engineer to come out because of either phone tag or differing advice from various people saying one thing or another. All I can say is that I have a newfound HUGE respect for all you construction and builder guys. I never once thought when coming into this project that it would be easy, but it's too the point now where DIY is becoming more and more unrealistic. Anyways, just sort or venting. Hopefully yall can be patient with me as I slowly crawl forward with this project. After looking at some of Paul Woodlock's pictures, it just makes me want this that much more. [/b]

Boy, do I know what you're going through.

Back in April, in my project thread, I wrote:

Disheartening is an understatement to describe how I'm feeling about this. I've spent months researching, studying, asking, detailing, posting, tweaking, posting, tweaking, posting, and in spite of it all, I feel like not only that I am at square one, but I'm not even allowed to roll the dice yet. This is supposed to happen to people who rush into things, not to people who are diligent and careful and mindful and methodical. A less dedicated individual would throw up his hands and say, "F*%& IT!" At times I wish I could do that. Yet, I know deep down that would only hurt more. I know I need to move forward, but I'm so lost right now that I don't know which way is forward and which way is backward. So, I remain standing still. Whereas in the past I've asked for feedback, I suppose now I ask for encouragement... And ideas would be welcome too.

Compare that to what I wrote just one month ago and you'll see, hopefully, that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Hang in there, my friend. For every one item you discover is a bad idea, that's one less mistake you'll have the opportunity to make. ;-) --Keith :mrgreen: P.S.: :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith, seriously, encouragement goes a long way. Sometimes I need others to see the good in my situation. I can't give up yet though, I just might have to accept the fact that I'm gonna need a ton more help from others than I anticipated.

OK, so let the help begin... I just reread this entire thread from the beginning. By the way, it looks to me that the "metal truss" things are not trusses at all, but rather, hanging structures to which various things are attached, like electrical conduits and perhaps the ceiling grid for the lower floor. If so, I'm guessing they don't offer any structural benefits to the floor above. Obviously I'm not a structural engineer, and I'm just judging by the photos... But that might explain the "strangeness" of the bottom "chords" not connecting to the walls. I agree that you're pretty much at a standstill until you can determine how much weight your existing floor can safely hold. Squashed office workers are not a good thing, although there's apparently enough embalming fluid available should that occur. ;-) What's your structural engineering status? Has the inspection already been done but you're waiting for a report? Or has the inspection not occurred yet because the engineer was hoping you'd have architectural drawings? Repeating something I mentioned much earlier, I would think your engineer would be able to make some "worst case assumptions" about the structure and be able to give you "minimum maximum" weight allowances (as in, "Iassuming the worst on component A and component B, the floor can definitely hold X number of pounds per square foot, and possibly more if components A and B don't suck"). I (still) agree that it's kind of pointless to get too detailed with your plans until the floor situation is settled. Hopefully you'll be able to get some closure on this issue soon so you can get unstuck! --Keith :mrgreen:

I too just re-read this entire thread; until you get some input from "BRA's" and engineer, I'm not sure what all we can do; A few things came to mind though - one, I think I'd save your "high dollar" door for the TOP of the stairwell; then, I'd hang 4" rockwool at an angle following the stairs, at about 8 feet high: finally, I'd resolve the "landing question" at the bottom of the stair, and either build out a few feet on either side of the frame (if possible) or forget it and do a code-compliant air lock ALL AT THE TOP of the stairs, with the expensive door inside - spaced at least 4 feet from ANOTHER door, this one just a standard steel exterior door with good seal, and the space between doors absorbed with rockwool also. Doing this would require you to examine just where your inner and outer UNBROKEN leaves of mass would be, how things would tie together to accomplish this - But the first thing (structurally) is to find out from someone qualified, just what that floor will support. After that (and the BRA thing :cry: ) the rest is relatively easy (OK, payment usually isn't) Chris, check your PM if you've not already... Steve

Fortunately I speak Stevelish -- BRA = Bureaucrats Run Amok. ;-)

Thank you for the BRA meaning. I don't think I would have ever figured that out. :wink: Okay, so hear's the deal. I called an engineer and left a message on Wed (office was closed early for Thanksgiving). I should be getting a call back this week but I'm gonna call again Monday morning. I also have a couple of friends who work for engineering firms. The two guys that I actually know are civil and mechanical engineers but they have an idea of what I'm trying to accomplish because I've showed them this forum. They both have talked with "structural coworkers" about this and have showed them my thread and pictures here on the forum. One of the guys said that just by looking at the pictures of the trusses, his "hunch" was that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to float a new concrete slab but didn't say for sure obviously because the pics don't tell the whole story. Who know's though. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. That floor looks really sturdy to me, but what do I know? I guess if I can't float a concrete slab, I'll just have to count on you guys to help me achieve the best alternative :D I just bought sketckup too after completing the free trial period. I like it a lot. Definately my favorite after sampling 3 different programs. Hopefully I'll be able to more clearly get any questions and issues across with this new tool. Thanks again guys for the support/advice. I feel that I may be seeing a speck of light at the end of the tunnel after all. Steve, about your proposed "airlock" neer the top of the stairs, am I on the right track with the airlock idea in my "possible design" sketch on the first page of my thread? Okay, I'm gonna go and ckeck out my PM.

Steve, about your proposed "airlock" neer the top of the stairs, am I on the right track with the airlock idea in my "possible design" sketch on the first page of my thread? Exactly, only I'm not sure code would let you swing the door that way; I need to check on it, but I think if the hinges were on the other side it might be legal (you wouldn't want someone inside to open that door just when you were at the top of the stairs...) Steve