Cyeazel's project studio...... planning and preparing

What's up everyone? Finally worked up the courage to enter a bigger post. I've entered some smaller posts here and there, but nothing major. Anyway, my name is Chris and I'm from Northlake, IL (suburb of Chicago). I've been lurking/reading/researching this forum now for a while and I've learned a lot, but realize that I still want some help/guidance before I start anything big. I've got a second floor space(commercial type building) that is subdivided into three spaces with partition walls. The only work I've done so far has been removing 1 leaf of drywall from most of the partition walls and getting rid of some old heating unit along with ductwork throughout the ceiling. Existing construction [u]Floor:(common throughout all 3 rooms) [/u]is a 3.5 inch thick elevated concrete deck with an underlay of corrugated steel and metal joists spaced every 24" (I'm currently working on finding out the weight ratings for my floor. I'll be needing help with a professional on this one). Also, 24" below the concrete/steel deck hangs a suspended drop-tile ceiling for the 1st floor offices (2' x 4' panels set in 2' x 4' grid). The surface area of the drop tile ceiling is equal to the surface area of the concrete deck from which it hangs. In other words, where there is concrete deck, a suspended ceiling is also hanging from it. There is no insulation between the drop tile ceiling and the steel/concrete deck. Walls: The existing walls (upstairs in studio space) are either studded partition walls or 8x16 hollow blocks. All partition wall studs are spaced at 16" O.C. and are mainly 2x4 wood with one exception. There is one wall constructed with steel studs (16"O.C.) and another constructed of both (half wood, half steel). Spacing is consistent though at 16" O.C. The partition walls vary in height with most of them being 8 ft. Around the eastern perimeter of room 3, the wall is 10ft extending all the way up to the structural ceiling (8 ft framing, then additional 2 ft framing on top of that). Same goes for the partition wall on the eastern perimeter of room 1. But, for the most part, 8 ft is the dominant height due to pipes and sprinklers that drop down 24" from the 10' structurall ceiling. As for the block walls, all except the ones supporting the steel staircase framing extend from the ground (earth) up to the structural ceiling. Partition walls then rest on top of the block walls that support the staircase. Most of the block walls have 1 layer of 5/8" drywall mounted fluch on the interior side. However, a couple sections of the block wall that are common between rooms 2 and 3 have 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on 2x2 furring channels on the interior side, and 2 layers of 3" clay brick on the exterior side. This same wall is also part of the perimeter of the builiding as a whole. Again, I apologize if these explanations are confusing. Hopefully the drawings and pictures will help clear up any misunderstandings if there are any. Ceiling: The structural ceiling is also a corrugated steel deck supporting a layer of 3" thick EPDM rubber. The metal joists are spaced at around 6ft centers. The height from the concrete deck to the structural ceiling is consistent for each room and is 10ft. H.V.A.C. The existing H.V.A.C. unit is located on the roof and is located far enough away for noise from the unit itself to not be a problem. Rooms 1 and 2 are ventilated by the roof unit. The ventilation in room 3 was provided by the unit that I removed(as stated earlier). I removed it because it was dead and the cost to fix it would have been about as much if not more than a brand new unit. However, because I removed some drywall from the partition walls, I discoverd another duct (previously hidden) in the southeast corner of room 1 directly over the staircase. It too is run by the roof unit. I know it's working because I can feel the airflow coming out. I now plan to just continue the ductwork up and over the staircase between existing and newly built staircase ceiling leafs and into room 3. All other existing ductwork runs behind and around (south and west) rooms 1 and 2 and are enclosed in a separate space. Electrical: All existing wall outlets are powered up and working and are between wall studs and block cavities. Wiring is run through metal conduit which comes up through the concrete deck from the first floor which is where the main power supply is. There are some ceiling outlets and conduits as well, just above 8ft. Sorry, but that's all my limited knowledge of electricity can give. Dimensions: As stated earlier, there are 3 rooms that I'm able to use. Room 1 is L12' x W19'10" x H10' Room 2 is L20'2" x W14' x H10' Room 3 is L9'10" x W13'10" x H10' Room 1 is the southern most room. Room 2 lies directly north of room 1 and room 3 is directly east of room 2. Goals: I want/hope to be able to play my drums as well as electric guitars, bass etc. etc and have the offices (which reside directly below me) not be disturbed. I also want to do some recording as well but want to tackle the noise levels first. I understand that "complete" soundproofing is basically next to impossible so a substantial reduction in noise levels would be great. There are also a few intruding sounds that I'd like to stop as well. These are mainly from airplanes flying overhead and traffic as well as noises from the factory area behind (south) my rooms. The intruding factory noises are mainly the bangs and "clanks" of hammers hitting steel tubing, forklift beeping and some radio music. (I made some measuements of intruding sound levels with a sound level meter from radio shack. I'll post the results below.) I'm hoping to achieve high STC's (between 65-70 more if possible, but I'd be content with that). I know that STC doesn't really include low end but from what I've read, around STC 65 seems to have pretty good low end TL. I also hope to be able to fill the cavities of the hollw blocks and as stated earlier, I hope to (with the help from a pro) improve floor performance as well. Budget: I've gotton some quotes for constuction between 10 and 15,000$ so I'm prepared to spend that if needed. This amount can vary though as plans may be changed or altered. I'm also not in a huge rush so I don't need to spend everything all at once. Problems-questions: 1) What to do with my floor is where I need the most help. I've read and re-read "to float or not to float" and other floated floor related threads many times. I think I understand most of the concepts but the really technical stuff is still over my head. I understand that massive and heavier are better along with the proper "spring". I'm waiting for help from an engineer to help me calculate weight ratings and specs for the floor. 2) In reguards to the existing partition walls, is it worth it or practical to detach or decouple them(framing members) from the existing floor and then use them in conjunction with newly built frames for double walls. Or am I better off just knocking existing framing down and building everything new. If I can use any existing framing, I'd like to, but if it's a waste of time, then obvioulsy I won't. 3) I'm also not sure how to treat the 1.5" gap between the bottom plate of the partition wall and the supporting block wall on the east side of room 1 along the staircase. It looks like the bottom plate of the partition wall is resting on top of the tips of the top row of hollow blocks from the block wall directly below. I apologize if that makes absolutely no sense. I'll post a picture of that issue to help clarify. 4) If there's any way to use existing window frames I'd like to but otherwise I have no problem getting rid of them. 5) Reguardless of whether or not I fill the block wall cavities solid, should I tear down the 2 layers of drywall that are mounted on the furring strips, or should I just leave them for now until I know for sure if I can fill the blocks first? I'm sure more questions will come as progress is made. Thanks in advance to anyone who responds and for this great forum. I'll put the results of the sound level meter on the next post.

First thing you'll need to do is get hold of the engineering specs for those floors; find out what the floors are rated for in pounds per square foot. This isn't a given; it depends on the framing/spacing of support members, etc, so it's not something I can tell you from here. What is the typical ceiling height of the rooms you intend to use? IF it's enough, you may be able to get better floor performance by increasing the distance between the main (concrete) leaf and your added floor. If you can, get a sound level meter (Radio Shack sells one for about $40 that will work) and use the A weighting, fast response - measure the peaks of your "hammer banging" noise and write it down. This will help figure out how much isolation you need to add. What is the ceiling material downstairs; something like acoustic panels set into a 2' x 4' grid, or?? Any insulation up there? What kind, and how much? Concrete block walls - do these set ON the second floor, or do they extend from the ground upward? Could take a LOT of sand to fill. Also, unless you have access to their very top tier and it's not sealed (neither is likely :cry: you'll need to drill fairly large holes in each and every cavity in a wall in order to fill with sand. May be easier to just beef up that wall with 2-3 more layers of gypsum and live with the triple-leaf losses in low end iso. Also, check out the "before you post" announcement and add any OTHER comments to your info base that may apply... Steve

Steve, thanks for helping me out. Okay, the drop tile ceiling on the first floor is set into a 2' x 4' grid and the actual panels are those light weight, dusty, white colored ones that can easily be removed. Sorry, don't know the technical name for them but I know that they aren't very dense. There is no insulation either. The height of my new ceiling upstairs can't be any higher than 8 ft max because of required (code) sprinkler head exposure. As far as the block walls go, depending on how you look at it, technically they do extend all the way from the ground (earth) up to the structurall ceiling on the second level. However, once the block wall(s) reach up to the second floor concrete deck, there is a layer of solid brick (not hollow) which I'm assuming helps support the steel truss rods and underlayment for the upper level concrete deck. Does that make sense? I guess the only reason I"m telling you that is because I won't have to use as much sand to fill the cavities because it is blocked off by the one layer of solid bricks. Sorta acts like a sill plate for the upstairs walls. Also, the only thing I've figured out about the floor framing and spacing is that the truss rods are about 3.5-4 inches wide, 14" in height, and are spaced every 24" O.C. Are there any links that would help me out more with this. I'm sure you're gonna need a lot more info than that. Do you need span lengths between bearing walls also? As for the block wall's top tier, it actually isn't sealed. Here's a couple picutures of the block wall/ceiling perimeters(upstairs) and also one of the steel floor framing and underlay.

I'm working on getting better info for you. I'll post back again after I gather as much more information on the existing construction as I can. One last thing, my vision isn't the greatest so, is the text on the drawings way too small to read or is it just my eyes? :|

cyeazel wrote:

my vision isn't the greatest so, is the text on the drawings way too small to read or is it just my eyes? :|

It's a little fuzzy but I think we can make all the details out.

So I've been exploring and studying my existing floor and have realized my need to hire a professional to help get the weight ratings and specs for me. Should I be looking for a structural engineer or will a general contractor be alright? :?

cyeazel wrote:

Should I be looking for a structural engineer or will a general contractor be alright? :?

Given that it's commercial space and multiple floors, I vote "structural."

Thanks Sharward, I appreciate it.

Here are the sound level meter results. All measurements were taken with the response set to fast and time spans of 199 seconds (highest it goes) Sounds that were measured include factory "clanks" and radio music, phones ringing, and airplanes flying overhead, as well as any other ambient noise.I used A weighting and C weighting for each room. Room 1: (potential control room) Average db: <50db(A) 64db(C) Peak db: 58 db(A) 70db(C) Room 2:(potential live/tracking room) Average db: <50db(A) 61db(C) Peak db: 61 db(A) 70 db(C) Room 3:(potential drum/vocal room) Average db: <50(A) 63db(C) Peak db: 66db(A) 70 db(C) And here are some more pictures. I've got many more but I didn't want to post them all at once.

Looking at those trusses, you will DEFINITELY need a structural engineer to look at those; not sure what's going on with the lower chords NOT extending into the wall for support, looks really strange to me. Ask your structural engineer if the studio floors can support a floated 3-1/2" concrete slab (if you can afford it) - direct him to http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/rimconcrete.html and http://209.200.80.33/html/architect_engin_index.htm Either of those should have (sorta) local reps that can help with design of a good isolated floor system. A 3.5" concrete slab weighs about 45 PSF, so your floors will need to be able to support at least that much more dead load - even more if you build inner walls. I wouldn't demo anything that's there until you've had the engineer out, and also had more time to study the REFERENCE section's first 3-4 links to better understand isolation theory... Steve

Kudos for the great photos, illustrations, and informative posts, by the way... Almost like being there.

Thanks guys for the advice. Sharward, I was mainly just trying to copy the way you presented your info so I should be thanking you. Steve, um.. not to be a nag or anything, and I know that there may not be a simple answer to this, but, I wanted to ask this just to see if I'm on the right track or not. Let's say I am able to float a 3.5" concrete slab, and am able to fill the hollow blocks of existing block walls. If in addition to the new slab I: 1) put up new timber frames (securely fastened to the new slab) at least 2 inches out from existing walls, 2) insulate cavities b/w existing walls and new framing and fasten 3 layers of 5/8" drywall to the inner side only of the new framing, 3) build new timber ceiling framing, completely fill the cavity between new and existing ceiling with insulation and also fasten 3 layers 5/8" standard drywall directly to the joists on the interior side of the new ceiling framing and rest the ceiling framing on top of the new wall framing, 4) make sure to properly mud/tape each wall/ceiling layer within the field and caulk perimeters with my butyl rope, 5) follow the design I drew in my first post ( any angles for walls will be at 3 degrees) .................... would I be on the right track for reaching my goal of keeping drums,electric guitar, bass, full band, etc etc substantially quieter for the offices below me? Just wanted to know if I'm understanding what I've learned and read here in this forum. I'll definately keep reading and learning as much as I can. Thanks again for all your help. This is seriously a dream of mine and you guys are helping make it a reality.

cyeazel wrote:

Sharward, I was mainly just trying to copy the way you presented your info so I should be thanking you.

You're too kind, Sir! :) Just in case Steve can't respond quickly, I'd say that sounds like a really sound plan (no pun intended!). All that's missing are the almighty TL calculations to give you the scientific assurance (as best you can) that you'll be achieving your goals and assuring everyone's comfort. One thing not mentioned in your post yet is HVAC. Everything you do for isolation is "plus plus plus" and anything you do for ventillation is "minus." It's often tough to balance the two, or more accurately, to have enough isolation and a bulletproof HVAC design that isn't too costly to your isolation.

Good point about the hvac. Yeah, totally forgot to include the ducts in the design sketch. Keeping the airflow at 500 cfm or more is ideal right? Here's some pics of my existing hvac system. I'll keep researching this topic as well. Feel free to chime in with any suggestions for alterations if needed.

Sharward wrote:

All that's missing are the almighty TL calculations to give you the scientific assurance (as best you can) that you'll be achieving your goals and assuring everyone's comfort.

I like the sound of scientific assurance. So I'll probably need to measure db levels from instruments with the sound level meter for this to be possible right? Do you have a possible start date (for new construction that is) for your project? Looks like, from your drawings anyways, once you get your hvac planning finished you're ready to go.

cyeazel wrote:

I like the sound of scientific assurance. So I'll probably need to measure db levels from instruments with the sound level meter for this to be possible right?

Yes, that's ideal. Then you'll know, by the numbers, what you have. Play "full on," measure the levels in the room, and measure the levels outside the room in various places. The worst numbers dictate "what you have." Reduce the volume until the levels outside the room are acceptable, then measure the levels inside the room. Subtract these numbers from the "worst numbers" above -- these dictate "what you need to accomplish." I admit that I haven't gone through this exercise myself... :? ...for several reasons. Hopefully I don't regret that. :shock:

Do you have a possible start date (for new construction that is) for your project? Looks like, from your drawings anyways, once you get your hvac planning finished you're ready to go.

I've been saying "two weeks" for about three months now. Two weeks. ;)

Cool. That doesn't sound too difficult. Now I'm nervous though. I feel like these numbers are going to be really high. Also, seeing as I don't have any new ceiling leaf for any of the rooms, (just 8ft partition walls and the 10ft existing ceiling) then the only measurements that will be useful are levels of instuments from upstairs to downstairs in the offices right? I mean, there's really no point to measure levels between rooms because there is no ceiling. And I hope that 2 weeks means 2 weeks this time. I want to see some pictures :mrgreen:

cyeazel wrote:

Cool. That doesn't sound too difficult. Now I'm nervous though. I feel like these numbers are going to be really high.

I know -- but imagine how nervous you'd feel the first time you "ripped it up" after the work is complete, sweating bullets hoping that you're not upsetting anyone! :shock: ;)

Also, seeing as I don't have any new ceiling leaf for any of the rooms, (just 8ft partition walls and the 10ft existing ceiling) then the only measurements that will be useful are levels of instuments from upstairs to downstairs in the offices right? I mean, there's really no point to measure levels between rooms because there is no ceiling.

It wouldn't hurt to measure room-to-room and possibly outdoors as well, just to be certain you don't have any surprises.

And I hope that 2 weeks means 2 weeks this time. I want to see some pictures :mrgreen:

Me too!! :roll: ;)

Better safe than sorry I guess.

I just got an estimate from a structural engineer to come out and calculate what the maximum weight my existing floor can hold. He quoted me for $730 Is this amount typical for something like this or am I being ripped off? I want to do it but if I'm wasting money on this firm, then I won't. Just wanted to throw this out there to see if anyone has had a similar experience.

I don't know what's reasonable and customary in terms of pricing, but if it is, I'd think it would be worth the expense. I would hope you'd get something really official looking with a stamp and all.

get something really official looking with a stamp and all / Exactly; typical for that should be something like 3-4 hours on site looking/measuring, etc, then about the same amount of time calculating/checking/printing up report at his office - so that puts the rate at right around $100/hour - definitely not a ripoff unless you do NOT get said "really official looking" paperwork... Steve

Thanks guys. It's nice to have that extra assurance from you. 100/hour is what this firm charges for the "chief" engineer. They had rates down to 35/hour but that was for the lower ranked engineers. The description of the scope of work that will be performed is: 1)Examine existing construction for any needed repair as well as calculate the maximum weight capabilities. 2)Provide a sealed document of the test results and specifications. I'm excited. Feels like I'm one step closer to my goal. The engineer is supposed to start his work on Sept 2nd. Thanks again for helping to point me in the right direction.

We're excited for you! Keep us posted! :mrgreen:

When he gets there, ask him to see his coffee cup; if it says,"Siks Munce Ugo I Cudnt Evun Spel Enjunear, un No I ARE Wun", you should probably cancel the contract... :wink: