Cyeazel's project studio...... planning and preparing

Well, slow and steady wins the race, cyeazel. You are wise to figure out what you're doing before you do it. Keep your eye on the ball and try not to get bogged down in the minutia. I look forward to seeing your drawings and progress reports. :D --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith, appreciate the encouragement. Can't wait to post progress.

knightfly wrote:

If you have enough floor space to leave wider air gaps in walls, and enough headroom to use a bit taller floor spacers, you can still do a good job of isolating. For instance, a few more inches of air/insulation in the walls, coupled with 2 layers of 5/8 wallboard and Green Glue - then, 2x6 frame on elastomer pucks (gives 6" air/insulation gap in the floor) and only 2" of concrete, and you should be well within load specs. I don't have time to calculate the approximate end result ATM, but don't think it will suck too much... Steve BTW, remind me how thick the existing concrete floor is again?

Steve, how much extra air space between walls were you thinking? Also, should I stick with two layers of drywall and green glue for the ceiling too or would one layer be enough seeing as how I'll have about 24 inches of airspace b/w ceiling leafs.

Two layers at least, definitely.

Thanks Keith. Long time, no post. Hey I was wondering why you plan on removing your new inner leaf soleplates, unless I read something incorrectly.

I'm glad to see you haven't fallen off the face of the planet, cyeazel! 8) I plan to build my inner walls flat and then tip them into place -- so the sole plates that are bolted down are only there temporarily, to apply pressure on the silicone caulk and to cut down on my tripping over the J-bolts. ;-) It also helps in keeping the green stuff protected, not kicked and torn. The outer leaf sole plates will most likely stay in position, as I'll be framing those walls in place. Tipping them into position won't be practical, since the wall frames will be slightly taller than the existing ceiling (the top plates must be affixed to the bottom chord of the trusses -- I'll be removing parts of the ceiling to expose the trusses for this). Your question is a good one -- so I'll post this question and answer in my own thread. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. I knew you had a reason, I just couldn't figure it out.

Okay so my weight limit is 28lbs psf for my floor. Not strong enough for a heavy concrete floating floor but........... if constructed properly, will a "heavy" multi-layered wood floor be better than nothing or, rather, some isolation better than none at all.

In your case it may make sense, because you want there to be two leaves. A fairly lightweight floated floor on a ground level often does more harm than good. However, in your case you will need to be extemely careful to know how much the floor, the walls (if attached to the floor), and all the rooms' contents and people will weigh so that your elsatomer is properly loaded (not too much, and not too little). --Keith :mrgreen:

I think that's the route I'm gonna have to take. So as long as I stay within my floors load capacity and caculate the the total weight for proper rubber compression, then I should end up with a floor that will improve transmission loss right? It may not be the best or ideal, but if I can make an improvement, then I'll be satisfied. Maybe I should buy 1 u-boat and do that compression test that Knightfly talks about in the refrence section. Maybe I could be the first to document some test results!. But anyway, I have got to do something. I may not be able to completely stop sound from traveling thru the floor, but I have to improve it at least.

If you ask nice, Auralex may "comp" 1 or 2 U-boats to you if you explain your intentions - that was gonna be my next suggestion so we can start calculating material weights, spacing, etc... Steve

What about Sylomer? :roll:

I tried Auralex and I had to leave a message. So we'll see what happens with the u-boats when he calls back.

Sylomer would be more effective for sure, but other than Paul in "merrie aulde", I've not heard of anyone using it this side of the pond (believe it's Swiss??!?) At work (large older industrial building) there's a 100-TON break-out press, used to bust 5 foot diameter Zirconium "donuts" into smaller chunks so it can be run thru a "rock crusher", turned into zirc "gravel", then pressed into bricks which get vacuum-welded into big long sticks and finally melted into ingots in a vacuum arc furnace - anyway, this 100 ton press, when it broke thru the chunk it was breaking, used to literally move the upstairs floor (12" concrete not including cast-in 32" "joists") about 1/2" - talk about loads of intermittent connection problems for all the gear on the second floor... Last year during shutdown they finally decided to fix the problem - this press has a frame that's about 15 feet square, the press is probably 20 feet tall with hydraulic cylinders about 2 feet in diameter, and weighs several tons itself - they dug a hole about 18 feet square and 12 feet deep, lined it with ONE INCH (??!?) of some "wunder-material" (I have a small sample but it has no markings) - then, they poured a heavily steel-reinforced "cube" of concrete flush with the floor, and reinstalled said press. (bet the m-s-m frequency of THAT much weight is sub-audible, in SPITE of only 1" of spring) Let's see, one mass = infinite, the other is about 288 TONS (just for the concrete cube, plus another 25-30 tons for the press) Now, upstairs you hear/feel NOTHING and the loudest noise downstairs is the whine of the hydraulic power unit (3 100-horse motors/pumps + accumulators, solenoid valves, etc) Hope to soon find out who the engineer on that project was, and pump him for info since I was told the stuff came from Portland :twisted: Chris, not sure who at Auralex you should be talking to now, Jeff is no longer with them. It will be interesting, tho, to see if my "directions" on testing hold up or if we need to refine them as you try to follow them... Steve

IMHO, Auralex should be doing these tests. I think it's B.S. that they market a product for this purpose with no test results, just "gut feel" placement directions and a statement of how the things should last 25 years. :evil: "Oh, but that's how they keep the costs so low on them." :roll: :x --Keith :mrgreen:

Mason sells "bridge pads" of Neoprene they also claim last that long - at least Auralex tells you what U-boats are MADE of, unlike foambymail.com. I agree tho, it'd be nice to see something more than "put 'em every couple feet or so"... Steve

I don't think Auralex is gonna let me have a couple for nothing but it's cool. I'll spend 5 dollars on 2 u-boats to see what's up with them. I know there are no official test results on them but I feel like they must work, at least somewhat. I haven't heard anything bad about them anywhere. I hope they turn out to work. I like how they wrap around the framing member. That would make me feel better, at least knowing that. So there's no test results with the mason pads either? I thought for sure a company like them would have results.(Edit) Woops, nevermind. They do have some results posted but a lot of it is still over my head. By the way Steve, should we proceed on this thread or do you want to just stick to the other one (compression and floated floor) to make it simpler?

cyeazel wrote:

I know there are no official test results on them but I feel like they must work, at least somewhat.

There are a lot of bogus nutritional supplements and health aides on the market that rely on just that kind of thinking... Or, rather, "feeling." If someone spends money on a product with a promise of a certain effect, and then they use that product, they're going to expect a certain effect, and may even think they are experiencing that effect, whether or not they actually are. Power of suggestion. Placebo effect. Wishful thinking. Unwillingness to admit that maybe we were suckered. I don't know of anyone who, in the course of building their own project, made two builds equal to each other, with the exception being the U-boats or any other untested, undocumented elastomer, with details of the difference between the two. Unfortunately, floated floor/room elastomers can't be added or removed after the fact for an effective "before and after" comparison. That's why testing is important, and in my opinion, unwaveringly crtitical and necessary, when it comes to floated floor/room systems. To everyone who has said, "I used U-boats and they worked great!" I ask them: "How do you know if the results would have been the same, or even worse, if you had not used them?" In my opinion, we need to get beyond "feeling" that a product will work as we "hope" it will, and that if a manufacturer is unwilling or unable to substantiate the claims with hard evidence from an independent third party (something Audio Alloy / Green Glue has done extremely well -- kudos to them!! 8)), then -- again, in my opinion -- it shouldn't be worth our consideration. In closing, I'll just say that U-boats may be a fine product, and may very well stand to the scrutiny of independent lab testing. I actually hope that they do someday. However, until they do, and until its manufacturer publishes credible specifications regarding weight limits, optimal loads, related longevity, flame tests, etc., I will continue to discourage their use. Finally, remember that building codes probably prohibit their use, and everyone knows my sentiments on the importance of following codes and doing construction above board with the municipal building authorities. --Keith :mrgreen:

Any suggestions on a good way to close up this gap along the perimeter of the blockwall and ceiling? Don't know much about masonry/brick work so any advice would be great. I was thinking of just getting some concrete mix, mixing it to a putty like consistency and then just stuffing it in. Don't really care how it looks because it won't be visible but I want to fill up the gap because it is my outer shell. Does this sound like a good idea or am I better off doing something else or....?

Before i began construction last winter i ask Auralex about U-boats loading and spacing here's the e-mail : Me

...long snip on how i was going to build the studio ...Now how can i calculate the proper number and spacing if i don't know the durometer (and shore) of the u-boats? Putting them at every 16"OC like it is said to work with 99.9% of applications seems like a shot in the dark to me. If i am going to buy u-boats i would really like to have them working and my moneys worth for that matter. I can calculate the weight of my construction... but how can i know before actually building the thing that i won't overload or underload the u-boats ? You guys know that, in order to work the u-boat must be properly loaded as any other floating system. I'd appreciate some feedback on this issue..

Auralex

Dear Eric, Thanks for your email, and good questions. It sounds like you are definitely going about your home studio construction the right way, excellent construction methods and application of materials. For additional info on this, check out www.acoustics101.com , a website completely dedicated to studio construction. The spacing of U-Boats 16" OC is recommend for almost every installation, including across your 2x3 studs. The only reason for the 0.01% disparity is more of a structural issue than an acoustical one. Research shows that you can actually improve the decoupling of your floor with >16" OC spacing (fewer contact points, greater distance between couplers), however not having enough support can lead to floor joist sagging over time creating uneven floors that would reduce the decoupling effect. 16" OC is a happy medium that should offer great decoupling while keeping the structural load-bearing requirements intact. Unfortunately the durometer of U-Boats is a trade secret that we can not disclose - it would then make them easy to reproduce by an imitator or competitor - however please rest assured that we have designed these with the optimal balance between acoustical performance and structural integrity based on what we consider to be an average studio floor weight. Let me know if there are any other ways we can help. Thanks again, have a great day!

Me

"however please rest assured that we have designed these with the optimal balance between acoustical performance and structural integrity based on what we consider to be an average studio floor weight." Would you be kind enough to tell me what is that "average studio floor weight" ? Please

Never got an answer on that. :evil: Make your own conclusions. So i decided then to make my own testing. But i just can't find them (as stupid as it may seems :oops: ) it was late at night between two gig and ...bla,bla bla... i'll post them as soon as i find them, they're probably in the freezer or something..... :wink:

They won't even release the DURO specs? :shock: Wow... I thought I didn't have respect for U-boats before now... :roll: And to think that once upon a time I actually wanted to use those pieces of crap... :x --Keith :mrgreen:

So Keith, I guess I have your approval on the u-boats. Anyone else? I actually ordered 2 (5$) so I could test them (or at least attempt to test them).

Haha! :lol: For clarity: My opinion is that U-boats SUCK until and unless its manufacturer demonstrably, credibly, and convincingly proves otherwise.

I say go for it - by the time you finish with my "rube goldberg" tests and calculate compressions, weights, etc, you'll know all you need to know to build as functional a floated floor as is possible with your weight limitations - keeping final dead load compression to 10% or slightly less, using enough insulation (2-3 PCF) for slight compression, keeping the "air" gap as wide as practical, using as many floor layers as your 28 PSF limitation will allow (including wall weights) and layering with GG will give you the best results you can get UNDER YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES. Sure, you could buy other EPDM raw and cut your own pucks (and probably save some $$), but I say let's bitch-slap the "permit Nazi" into submission and strike a blow for freedom of choice :twisted: ... Steve

I'd probably be offended if I weren't laughing so much! :lol: But seriously... Steve, can we at least agree that Kinetics' roll-out floating floor system (small air gap) or their compressed fiberglass block elastomers are a superior choice over the "we don't need no stinkin' specs" U-boats? (I'd offer a link, but I'm on the Treo... :roll:) --Keith :mrgreen: