yeah i had thought of filling the gap up with sand, but i thought that would be heavy, leaky (maybe into the meter box), messy and would attract moisture. this stuff is supposed to be moisture-resistant.
well then, i guess i have approval from the forum's official worry wart? :D :D :D
there are some other things in this corner, like a terminal where there is a phone line connection. it's not inconceivable that i might need to access this stuff some day. i'm going to keep that in mind as i build. i even thought of building in an access door (but sealing it with caulk) just in case ...
Dan F's One-Room Garage Studio
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 3876.
Around here, we just call him "wart fer short" :twisted: -
Wow, get some chickens and you kin have brains and eggs fer breakfast ( haven't tried that particular "delicacy", don't ever plan to :? )
Sounds to me like you're fully aware of the pro's and cons of what you did with the foam; note comments in Julian's thread about drilling all his hollow block and foam filling.
Sooo, anybody in your house getting a full night's sleep yet? (My two are both over 30 but I STILL remember the exhaustion)
Better hurry up the studio before the kids start driving, or you'll prob'ly be waiting til they all leave home (for the 2nd or 3rd time) -
Alternative - wait til they're all in school, then put 'em on the bus and move to another town, leaving no forwarding address...
Yeah, I'm kidding - what can I say, I'm just old, cantankerous and evil... :twisted:
hehe ... the kid is JUST starting to sleep for more than a couple hours at a stretch. and the other ones (2 and 4) are runnin me ragged as well.
and of course, when everyone's asleep, that's when i stay up to recover some time for myself. oh well, i'll sleep when i'm dead ...
Yes, you may have my official stamp of approval... That and $2.95 will buy you a "tall" java from a certain ubiquitous Washington-headquartered caffeine retailer! :lol:i guess i have approval from the forum's official worry wart? :D :D :D
Take some pictures of that, from both sides of the wall. I have some ideas but I don't want to jump to any conclusions. If it's what I think, you may really like the results. Did I mention that I have lots o' experience with residential telephone wiring? 8) --Keith :mrgreen:there are some other things in this corner, like a terminal where there is a phone line connection. it's not inconceivable that i might need to access this stuff some day. i'm going to keep that in mind as i build. i even thought of building in an access door (but sealing it with caulk) just in case ...
hey guys one question, could this have been or stucco levelor then?
hi mike,
in large quantities this stuff gets very expensive, even if you find industrial size equivalent. also, how would you apply it, in a perfectly flat layer under your next layer of material. when it's wet it flows,and it's not smoothable really. i don't think it would work well ...
dan
a while ago, when I was trying to add cement instead of leveling and drywall, my neighbor had an idea that sounded OK, but I didnt really trust it, and let it go. But here it might work.
He said to temporarily put a board in cavity between studs leaving a gap between stucco and board. fill behind board by pouring (or now spraying) and the board is a mold basically. then pull the board.
It would need to be played with, for a good technique and the factors i can guess will be,
1)how runny is that stuff?
2)the whole section top to bottom or smaller sections 1 at a time.
3)Deataching the board(or not and its the first beef layer?) before it dries. Line board or use material the stuff wont bond to(if possible)
4)how much is expensive compared to headache? If its was more but a really good idea, I would even consider getting back in the beef up game.
Mike
well since we are talking about this now here is some stuff i've looked at as a cheaper source for mass quantities of this type of foam ... i thought about using this on my garage door.
http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html
but all in all it's very expensive, and i think it is pretty runny when wet since it can be poured into hollow pylons etc.
i think forgoing the beef is still your best bet. just do the inner leaf really good, and be done.
Dan
Yeah, Mike -- I'm with Dan. Forget beefing up your outer walls. You've got more stucco on them than I do.
Plus, I want my outer leaf walls to be better than yours. :lol:
--Keith :mrgreen:
even better than that, steve passed me on a no beef roof. I was just playin around mostly, I dont want to beef up nothing but dinner if I could help it.
i got a little time to work last saturday. i have learned to work extremely fast, since i have to negotiate a set amount of time with the wife. the new baby you know.
working extremely fast with power tools. not a good idea.
i managed to frame in my space that will be filled with expandable foam and then covered with OSB. i was trying to avoid a trip to get wood, so i tried to get by with scraps i had around, which meant i didn't save much time at all if any. also in my haste i made more mistakes. arrrrrgh. anyway it is done.
the plan was to put plastic over the void, spray the foam inside the plastic and then screw down some osb to keep it from expanding out, hopefully it would expand upward.
it did expand upward but as it turned out there remained a soft unhardened part in the core of the foam which had no air and so wouldn't harden. so i had to puncture the plastic after the fact to let air in.
then there was a cavity that was filled with more foam. etc. etc. all in all not the quick process i had hoped for. and of course it didn't fill as much volume as i expected.
but not too bad i guess.
covering it up with plastic doesn't seem to work. it is somewhat sculptable while expanding so maybe i can try keeping an eye on it and sculpting it rather than holding it in with OSB. or, maybe the answer is to just do a small layer at a time.
anyway i'll be glad to get this meter box headache done with ... pix below.
dan
more pix
didn't mean to ignore this offer of assistance, keith ... it turns out some of the phone wires i see are old, not used by my current phone. so it's a bit simpler than i thought the ground connection for the exterior phone box is attached on the inside of the future wall to be however. what i probably should do is run an extension from the ground wire back out to the exterior in case someone needs access to that ground in the future. this is the big fat bare copper ground wire that runs out of my box, over across to the other side of the garage. actually i need to check where that goes. i had thought it went to the cold water pipe but maybe it runs to the breaker box over there .... hmmmm .... when you said, "you might really like the results," i was hoping that somehow it would add 5 or 6 db to my isolation :lol: but probably not. danTake some pictures of that, from both sides of the wall. I have some ideas but I don't want to jump to any conclusions. If it's what I think, you may really like the results.
Yup, most likely it does. I think it needs to be a direct connection to the ground rod or whatever... The same is true for cable TV if you have that.[/quote]the ground connection for the exterior phone box is attached on the inside of the future wall to be however. what i probably should do is run an extension from the ground wire back out to the exterior in case someone needs access to that ground in the future. this is the big fat bare copper ground wire that runs out of my box, over across to the other side of the garage. actually i need to check where that goes. i had thought it went to the cold water pipe but maybe it runs to the breaker box over there .... hmmmm ....
sharward was kind enough to point out my thread had fallen off the first page of the forum. we can't have that now can we?
it's true i haven't had that much time to work on my project because of the 2 month old baby i got. but having no progress to report on my own project never stopped me from posting before now did it?
actually there is another problem, that is, i got a promotion at work, and now i have no time to screw around posting to the forum from work.
stupid work! they somehow found out i wasn't working hard enough.
anyway there is some progress, although minor compared to say keith's garage excavation, but to me it at least is enough to maintain hope that this project may be finished before i die.
i finished covering up the awkward cavity around the electical meter box and conduit and filling it with closed cell spray foam. that was a major pain, i don't recommend this approach much. it took about six cans for that small space, probably costing about $30, and it wasn't that quick a solution either. it is kind of fun to use though, unless you get it on you.
the purpose of the foam is to prevent a resonance from occurring in the space. i will be adding mass to the outside of the OSB shell i have created to provide isolation. and i will be gouging back the foam that is sticking out and filling in the gaps with caulk.
then i felt like it was about time to start putting up 5/8 on my walls for the beef up. i didn't get that far yet, only one layer in two bays, but anyway, just having any gypsum up at all is a nice feeling. i know ... pathetic isn't it, how slow my project is going :lol:
here are some pix to elucidate ...
Lookin' good, my friend! 8)
You'll want to hurry up and get that studio done before that lil' tyke develops lungs! :lol: Or is it too late already? :shock:
I know the feeling you're having about "some gypsum is up -- progress!" Unfortunately, it's short-lived... :roll:
Here's to you keeping The Famous "Dan Fitzpatrick's Studio Thread" Thread on Page 1 of the forum! :D
--Keith :mrgreen:
Sad, sad, sad. My thread had gone all the way to page 3.
Not that I haven't been doing work. I have been, but not enough to bother anyone with. Even where I'm at now is nothing to write home about, but heck, I missed you guys ... >snif<
I completed one layer of 5/8 on the stucco section of the south wall of the garage (outer leaf beef up). So that part is stucco, smoothed out stucco, plaster, 7/16 OSB, and 1 layer 5/8.
There are a few feet of wood siding (rather than stucco) between the stucco section and the garage door, those now have 2 layers of 5/8 on them.
All layers are caulked. The gypsum layers use backing rod throughout. I want to talk about backing rod, and I want to talk about it a lot. So don't go away. It's exciting stuff.
I also started -- gasp -- on the north wall today. Wait a minnit, I hear you say, you aren't done with the south wall yet. Well maybe I am, maybe I'm not. This project is taking too damn long you know. The project has two major requirements, 1) that it be reasonably soundproof and 2) that it be done in my lifetime.
It has occurred to me that inner leaves will be much easier to "bulk up" with gypsum than the outer leaves, because I'll be working with 4x8 sections of drywall, not 1x7 sections. This beef up is very time consuming because of the small pieces of drywall I have to cut and then the ridiculous amount of linear feet I have to caulk etc. I think it best to downgrade the thickness of the outer leaf and perhaps upgrade the inner.
Also the outer leaf, at least the stucco part, is pretty stout even with one layer of gypsum, since there is pretty thick stucco, 1/2 inch OSB and then the gypsum. It ain't too shabby. Also I'm planning pretty ridiculous cavities, so that should help.
In any case, it's major corner-cutting time. I've studied this stuff 'til my ears have bled, and what I've ended up with is a pretty good gut feeling about what I'm doing. I think I can figure out which details are important and which aren't. Of course, I may be wrong. But I'll have a good feeling while doing it, if that makes sense.
For example, for the longest time I've planned to fill the 2 inch gap between my metal garage door and the first layer of gypsum with closed cell foam insulation, to prevent any "3rd leaf" resonance problems. Forget it, I ain't doing that now. I don't think it is worth the time.
Yes I'm going to have a 2 inch void and a 3rd leaf with a fairly light mass, but i'm going to have two very thick massive leaves and a 10 or 12 inch airgap which will hopefully not suffer too much from the extra void/leaf.
Also I'm thinking about maybe completing the outer leaf completely, including the door, before doing the inner leaf. My wife is bugging me about getting the garage back to somewhat of a normal liveable state (the laundry is in there) ... she seems bothered by all of the gypsum dust and sawdust that gets all over the clothes (whatever, who understands these women :lol: )
If I had the "studio" area closed off i could turn the remainder of the garage into a more workable space with storage etc.
Anyway long story short I'm ratcheting up the pace of finishing this project at the expense of the little details that I think can be dispensed with without too much of a problem. What is that rule, the 80-20 rule, that says the last 20 percent of perfection takes 80 percent of your effort? Well count me out on that last 20 percent, man. I'll get by without it.
More in a minute.
Ahhh, that's better, back at the top of page 1 (at least at the moment). If it wasn't for the enjoyment of forcing others to notice my project I'd never get anything done.
I'm going to put up some pictures here, and then let's talk about backing rod. And a couple of tools I've found invaluable. (See, I'm "teasing" the tools thing to tempt you into reading further. Yes, I'm in the media business! How did you know!)
Caulking close-ups!
Let's talk about backing rod, shall we?
I really wonder how many people use backing rod, because I hardly ever see people talk about using it or where to get a good deal on it. Maybe people just don't understand how awesome backing rod is.
First of all backing rod is a good idea from a "doing things right" perspective. As you know from my previous posts today this is an argument that doesnt' fly to well month six into the project. But let me mention it anyway.
The idea on caulk is that it should be stretching between the two sides of your joint, not that it should fill the joint. If it fills the joint it can't stretch as easily, because it might be stuck to the back of the joint. If it is only stuck to the sides, it is more free to stretch and not break. Backing rod does stick to the caulk but it doesn't stick to the back of the joint, resulting in a much stretchier joint. With me so far?
See here: http://www.loghelp.com/info/brodtips.html
Man, this is even boring me. Sorry, but i must ... keep ... typing ...
Here's a really compelling reason to use the rod. It saves caulk. It saves A LOT of caulk. Which saves money and time, and sore hands. Ok, it takes time to put the backer rod in. But not that much if you have the right tool. Do you really want to fill up that 3/8 by 5/8 inch gap with precious caulk? NO! Put in some 3/8 backing rod and save tons of caulk. Sometimes your gap could be even bigger than 3/8, you might need to double up the rod. Think how much caulk you'd be wasting!! Tragic.
3/8 is bigger than you will usually need in my experience. That is why I got a big spool of 1/4 inch that you see below. That is my main rod. But 3/8 is good to have too. I just ran out of the 3/8 i bought from home depot, and am about to order about 500 feet from the same people i got the 1/4 from these guys:
http://www.loghelp.com/backerod.html
They are way cheaper than HD if you want any kind of quantity, I think I paid about $40 for 1000 feet of 1/4 you see here. HD doesn't have 1/4, but 30 feet of 3/8 costs around $4 there, and this log cabin place sells 100 feet of 3/8 for $5. They actually have sizes up to 4 inches if you can figure out a use for that.
Anyway, if you use backer rod you will use less caulk and get a more credible fill more quickly and easily. Also the nice thing about it is that it gets stuffed in there pretty good and will provide some sound sealing in and of itself, as a backup.
But the bottom line is ... I like using backing rod, and yet I am lazy and cheap. Hmmm. How can this be? Backing rod costs money and effort to obtain, and takes time to use. And yet, and yet ... I am still using it. That just about says it all.
Mmmmmm ... backing rod .....
Ok, here's the tool I was talking about. This is ESSENTIAL to have if you are using backing rod. Even people who plan to use backing rod, probably give up if they don't have this. This is a tool for putting window screen rubber rod into the screen frame, and I happened to have it already, thank heavens, because I may never have known it existed. Get one of these if you are using backing rod. It rocks.
It makes it "a breeze" as they say, but also you can really jam 1/4 rod into some small cracks with it.
Also here's a neat trick i just discovered today, since i ran out of 3/8 backing rod, i twisted two pieces of 1/4 rod together and it worked really well, although it obviously took more time. Good in a pinch though.
First shot shows normal 1/4 rod, second shot shows twisted.
One more thing I have to mention, in case there are people here who haven't discovered this essential tool for screwing gypsum. You must get this if you don't have it. After you have adjusted it properly the first time you use it, you will never have to worry about or pay attention to how deep to screw into the gypsum. The power screwdriver will automatically stop screwing at the proper depth. You must get this thing (about $16 at home depot, a little pricey but well worth it).
Dan, shame on you for not doing all this beef-up stuff before I did my beef-up stuff, 'cuz I really wish I could have learned from you before I, uh ...wasted?... five cases of acoustic sealant on my beef! :shock: Yes, you spoke highly of backing rod before, and yes, you provided links to your source before, but I was holding my ears yelling "la-la-la-la-la-la!!!" and not listening because I assumed, probably incorrectly, that the overall twistiness and bowing of my studs would render the backing rod useless in my application. I am now beginning to question that!
Fortunately, I do plan to use backing rod on my non-beef-up wall construction, and I will definitely take all of your compelling advice when I get to that stage! I'm also pleased to inform you that I too have that handy dandy llittle tool -- two of them I think! I could be a two-handed backing rod putterupper and then you'd really be proud! :lol:
I hear what you're saying about the 80/20 thing, about the woman not liking construction zone living, about wanting to make some real friggin' progress already, about cutting corners that don't matter that much, etc. It's hard to argue with you on those points. It doesn't seem you're making any grave compromises -- yet -- and I'll be watching! ;-)
Nice job on the beef-up. Seriously. I can tell from the pix that you're very methodical. I honestly think your beef-up results look finer than mine. (You bastard! :evil: :lol:)
You may want to not actually "paint yourself into a corner" by finishing your outer leaf and then working on the inner leaf afterwards though... :roll: ...You may be better off doing all the framing first (both leaves), then doing all the drywall. You may need to slip between studs a lot during the construction.
One thing you might be able to do to make the laundry area less crappy during construction is to seal off that area with plastic sheet walls, much like what was done in our house when we had the water intrusion. I'm attaching a picture that shows what I'm talking about.
You say that you have not made a lot of progress and/or that it's not worth reporting, but I disagree. Having gone through a substantial beef-up effort myself that went a lot slower than I had imagined, I applaud your progress. And I too can relate to the "motivation factor" of posting updates with pix to show what was done! 8) We mustn't let our fans down, right? :lol:
--Keith :mrgreen:
hi Keith,
I don't think i really realized how key the backing rod was until the past couple of weeks. but i kind of knew that you hadn't used it, and probably few others are either. it's just not a subject of conversation. so i wanted to make a big pitch for it because it's a great thing. it's just ridiculously expensive unless you have a bulk source.
hey i forgot to mention my secret motivation for finishing my outer leaf first ... maybe you already figured it out. i'm kind of curious to see how soundproof the outer leaf is by itself. maybe i can get some drumming in, hehehehe.