Dan F's One-Room Garage Studio

Hey Dan, any GREENGLUE in the plans anywhere? :lol: fitZ

fitz, since you gave the :lol: icon, i guess you're joking? but in case you're not ... no i wasn't going to use it because it's expensive. but maybe that would help smooth out any residual rough surface a bit :? :? :? :? aw forget it. i've done enough with this wall already :D :D :D :D

Dan, don't think of GG as a "filler", in order to benefit from Constrained Layer Damping (GG's "raison d'être") the stuff needs to be THINNNN... Also, I've not had anywhere near enough "study time" lately so can't comment on whether GG or another layer of wallboard would be more effective - as energetic as Brian has been lately he'll probably have a new version of "IR-761" ready to go in a week or two, comparing GG, MLV, compressed straw bales, sand-filled marshmallow, 25 layers of moving blankets, home-made MDF using recycled cardboard boxes run over 25,000 times with a Volvo station wagon (for compression), and a m-a-m consisting of two circus tents with a 20 foot air gap between inner and outer... :? (Brian, if you're listening this is NOT a put-down - more like serious envy of your time/money/energy contributions - thank you)... Steve

Steve, Thanks for checking in on my thread! I've been wanting to do a sketch of my stucco beef-up plan for a while, to simplify things for those who have no interest in trying to glean actual facts from my wandering stream of consciousness postings :D hopefully this wil make my plan pretty clear. i have completed the mortar layer and the mud layer, at least partly, i will sand and probably spot fill and sand again before proceeding. but i have all of the materials to finish. this is only for about 12 feet of the garage fortunately. the other parts of the wall are wood siding, which is flat on the inside. sketch is not to scale, its a bit abstracted ... dan

Couple of things - how did you get your new building paper to be continuous without removing the studs, or did you just seal as well as possible at each stud? Also, (no lab tests on this so I may be full of the proverbial, but doubt it) typical framing lumber is approx. 2/3 the density of gypsum - so, when doing the "insert" thang, there will be a point of diminishing return caused by TWO things - one, when the total thickness of gypsum (or similar density mass) reaches approximately 2/3 the depth of your studs, the studs will become the weak point in the mass leaf. Two - as you add gypsum layers INSIDE the frame, you decrease the effective air gap which will RAISE the m-a-m resonance, causing a worsening of LF TL (assuming you don't move the inner frame further away from the original frame to compensate) Yet another thing that concerns me with tight/heavy construction - moisture. I'm sure you've read my comments to Keith about ventilating the space between his inner and outer walls, and why I think this is important - so much so that this is one of the reasons (apart from 7 hZ m-a-m resonance) that I'm planning on at least 24" of space between innerframe and outer concrete shell as I design my new facility - this "moat" will be open to the inside, conditioned/dehumidified space except when in use, and will have constant power ventilation (again, except when in use.) If necessary I'll be able to "tune" the inner walls with more or less pressure on insulation, AFTER it's all built, because there will be enough space to WALK between the leaves. I've seen 'way too many failures in newer homes, most of which are moisture related - the main reasons for this are (1) homes today are required to be VASTLY more energy efficient than they were 100 years ago (or even 10 for that matter) (2) Builders are in much more of a hurry so things are built wet, not fully allowed to dry out, and in a lot of cases moisture is trapped by improper placement/quantity of vapor/moisture/air barriers due to lack of understanding. The old houses are still standing because the LEAK AIR LIKE A SIEVE... This is another area where it takes quite a bit of study to gain an appreciation of the REAL ways of doing things - in some cases the CODES are responsible for wrong construction, so WTF can you do? From my perspective, I would bet that 100 years from NOW there will be more of the homes that are currently ALREADY 100 years old, still standing than homes that are built today. Kinda got a ramble goin' on there, sorry... Steve

knightfly wrote:

how did you get your new building paper to be continuous without removing the studs, or did you just seal as well as possible at each stud?

good question. i thought about this ahead of time, luckily, and cut the paper in such a way so i could put down a full sheet of NEW paper, and then fold OLD paper back over the new for optimal overlap. see sketch below. the triangle at the top will be folded down first. then the full new sheet will go down. and then the other sections of paper will be folded down. so i should get good overlap except at the corners (obviously a weak point.) then i would look at maybe sealing the seams especially near the corners somehow. possibly with roof cement? any ideas?

knightfly wrote:

there will be a point of diminishing return caused by TWO things - one, when the total thickness of gypsum (or similar density mass) reaches approximately 2/3 the depth of your studs, the studs will become the weak point in the mass leaf.

ok, good point. so i may be overkilling the thickness just a bit, if you include the OSB, by about a half inch. BUT, i'll be adding OSB to the sides of the studs too (the cleats) so maybe that will help?

knightfly wrote:

Two - as you add gypsum layers INSIDE the frame, you decrease the effective air gap which will RAISE the m-a-m resonance, causing a worsening of LF TL (assuming you don't move the inner frame further away from the original frame to compensate)

true, but my gap will be about 12", so an extra 1/2" isn't going to matter that much. :) :)

knightfly wrote:

Yet another thing that concerns me with tight/heavy construction - moisture.

i'm glad you brought this up. i've been careful in my design to keep the wall as vapor permeable as is practical. i decided not to paint the drywall with latex paint for this reason, and also to use building paper as my vapor barrier rather than something less permeable. all my layers are permeable. yes they are getting pretty thick, so they will pass moisture more slowly than thinner walls, but they should still be able to pass moisture in or out? do you agree? or is there a point where the thickness becomes overwhelming? i had been planning to use the two ply building paper, do you think i should just do one ply then? maybe i should use tyvek instead of building paper which i think has a very high perm rating? also, there is no problem for me to leave the inner door of the studio open when not in use, so that moisture can come out from between the leaves through the door system. or might that make things worse by allowing moisture IN? depending on how often the studio is used, i guess. maybe it's good to not leave the inner door open RIGHT AFTER a session, but open it later when the room has cooled down. also, one final point is that the current plan has no heating or cooling for hte space, so that should cut down on moisture migration into or from the wall (although how practical this plan is for my comfort is a bit of an open question :) ). i was thinking of power ventilating the space but since i am not airconditioning or dehumidifying my space it's probably not a good idea to just ventilate with outside air, that would probably introduce MORE moisture into the space right? Thanks again for taking an interest, Steve! Dan

Hey Dan, Great thread... a lot applies to my garage. Hey, can you further explain, or maybe draw a quickie top view of your OSB/cleat/drywall inserts? I'm unclear as to how it all goes together. I do like the OSB idea, though I'll be working on a wall that's shared with the inside of the house... so it's a 1/2 drywall sheet I'll be adding 5/8" drywall to.

hi stick, i'm glad you're getting something out of this! :) ok here's a rough overhead view, showing how the studs fit in to all this. i put some blue dots showing some places i plan to caulk obviously. but not all caulk is shown of course. and it's not really to scale ... pls refer to earlier sketch for labeling of parts. dan

Ah ha! The lightbulb is now over my head. :idea: So, if I were to do something similar, how much more drywall would I need to make up for the less dense OSB? My "standard" for now is 2 layers of 5/8" and a layer of 1/2"

just go by mass. weigh a sheet of each, and figure out what you have to do to keep the mass consistent with your "standard" here are some weights http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =6306#6306

Much thanks.

My understanding is that 3/4" OSB is roughly equivalent in mass as 5/8" gypsum wallboard.

Cool. 3/4 OSB it is. Now back to your regularly scheduled Dan's Studio thread.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I got an email yesterday at work(a major home improvement warehouse) and the 4x8 sheets of osb that were $9.90 are going up to $14 if they haven't already. :(

Yeah -- I wondered if there would be an impact on the costs of building materials in the wake of Katrina... I wonder if it will be regional, nationwide, or even worldwide. :roll:

Pretty decent progress this weekend. I began by sanding down some of the rough parts of the mud layer, and doing a little fill-in on some low areas. But I wasn't too into it, i was just going for the obvious bad spots. Unfortunately that took a long time and wore me out too. I did some acoustic caulking between the paper and the mud too, even though i was not sure it was worth doing. Anyway that pretty much took up my alotted time on Saturday, so I was depressed at having made no visible progress. So I vowed to do better on Sunday. I had been concerned about the next step, which was adding the new layer of building paper on top of the mud layer, and then folding down the original building paper i had cut open. How to make this stuff stick down? I had thought to use spray mount, but that turned out to be a stupid idea. Spray mount might have worked in large quantities, but it isn't the right stuff for such heavy paper. too thin. It would have cost a fortune, and may have screwed up my vapor permeability. So then I decided to try liquid nails, just using a very small amount. That worked great. While it may not be very permeable (who knows) i didn't use that much so the vapor characteristics of my wall system should be ok. Also I decided to do just one layer of building paper. Especially since there is old building paper on top of this, it seemed overkill and also with the extra layers of drywall the wall is going to be pretty thick for vapor to escape through. I set up a sheet of plywood on some sawhorses and started cutting up the building paper, using a drywall square and marking my lines with bits of drywall (since the paper is black, it's hard to see pencil or sharpie etc). I glued on the paper to the mud with liquid nails. Then i acoustic caulked between the mud layer/new paper and the old paper. Then I glued down the flaps of the old paper that had been cut open. Actually i had stapled these open, so i had to spend a bunch of time removing these staples. what a pain that was. Then i acoustic caulked between the paper and the studs. as i went on i decided not to caulk between the mud/new paper and the old paper on a couple rows, it seemed overkill. but maybe i should have. ideally i guess you'd caulk between the mud/new paper and the old paper, and then the old paper and the stud. between the new paper and the old paper, more for watertightness than airtightness. i should probably do this on the remaining sections. i got lazy i guess :lol: then i used some roofing patch between the paper and the diagonal cross brace, because this is a good place for water intrusion since there's no way to elegantly cut this open and get it back with any semblance of integrity. man that stuff stinks for days. maybe i will just use acoustic caulk on this too. it made me a little sick gave me a bit of nausea that i didn't appreciate. maybe the acoustic caulk will be adequate for my purpose since it is not exposed to the elements. anyway it was a bit of work because of the staple removal, but it's buttoning up very nicely and now that all the staples are removed the rest of it should be done in short order. i also cut up my fingers a bit on broken staples and splinters as i smoothed down the paper and caulked. :evil: i really want to keep using that roofing patch (GE Roof Cement/Asphalt Sealant) because it seems like the right way to tie together different pieces of building paper. but man the smell will infiltrate almost the whole house. :evil: :evil: Stick had mentioned in his thread that the Miracle acoustic caulk had shrunk. Mine did as well, leaving a few cracks and pinholes in very thick beads. Not something to get too upset about, but something to keep an eye on. it's easy enough to fill in a few trouble areas, and after doing multiple layers it should be a non issue. On the plus side, it doesn't stink to high heaven, and it cleans up pretty easy with water. It's pretty pleasant to work with. I didn't use any of my brand new 1000 feet of 1/4 inch backer rod though, that will wait for my official first layer of gypsum. It's going to be tricky using 1/4 inch i bet, because i'll have to get those gypsum pieces measured jussssst right. but i'm pretty sure on 1/2 inch gypsum, it's the right size. i'll be sure to report my experience in excruciating detail when the time comes. speaking of materials acquisition, i lucked into a bunch of good stuff from one of our members who is moving across country. he had advertised here about some 703, which i bought from him, but then i discovered he also had 8 1/2 bales of Roxul AFB, which i also bought, and a nearly full case of USG acoustic caulk. i think we were both pretty happy with the deal. overall a good week, and i'm especially glad that the putting back of the building paper plan went pretty smoothly ... that had been worrying me, but no more! the next problem will be dealing with my electric meter box and it's conduit and a gas pipe that is in the way of my beef up. still not sure what to do there. Dan

more pix ...

here are some pix of the cracks/bubbles in the Miracle SCS-100 Sound Control Sealant, apparently from shrinkage. in fairness, this may only be a problem with fairly large joints. not really that big a deal, except that, it's a bit of an annoyance, and if you have to go over caulked joints again after they have dried, you may have to wait again until they have dried to do your next layer. or maybe you could just do your layer while the "touch-up" was still wet. now that i have the case of USG sealant, i'll be able to do a comparison in the near future.

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

. . . (since the paper is black, it's hard to see pencil or sharpie etc). . .

I'll bet a silver Sharpie would work great: I bought mine at Rite Aid in bubble packs of two.

overall a good week, and i'm especially glad that the putting back of the building paper plan went pretty smoothly ... that had been worrying me, but no more!

Congratulations, Dan! Looks like it's coming along nicely. Great report too -- the details are super.

the next problem will be dealing with my electric meter box and it's conduit and a gas pipe that is in the way of my beef up. still not sure what to do there.

What do you think about using that expandable spray foam stuff, just so you can fill in the nooks and cranies with "wimpy mass" and then smooth it out somehow, suitable for you to do your more customary beef-up? You may want to experiment on a piece of scrap plywood to determine the best way to smooth it out... Would sandpaper rip it to shreds? Maybe a hand plane would do the trick...?

sharward wrote:

I'll bet a silver Sharpie would work great:

excellent call!

sharward wrote:

What do you think about using that expandable spray foam stuff

i did in fact get a can of that, which i'll be experimenting with soon :D by the way the lady next door keeps trying to peek inside the garage whenever i open it (which i rarely do anymore). she's clearly curious about what's going on :evil: i may have to have a conversation with her so she doesn't think i'm building a meth lab in there :) ... not that drums will be mentioned :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: i'll make it more like singing ... yeah that's it ... she actually has a church group every week to sing at her place, so she'll appreciate that.

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

by the way the lady next door keeps trying to peek inside the garage whenever i open it (which i rarely do anymore). she's clearly curious about what's going on :evil:

_____Insert really immature and unsupportive comment here._____ ;-)

that's not very supportive ... :evil: be nice :D

Sorry, Dan... Couldn't resist! :lol: You know you're still one of my favorites. :mrgreen:

Invite her over and give her a job to do. :D Frank

Congratulations are in order for our buddy Dan here -- he and his wife had their baby on Sunday afternoon! :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: It's a boy! :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: 8) :mrgreen: They have yet to decide on a name. As a result, his time on the board will be limited for a while.