Dan F's One-Room Garage Studio

hey dan i was just reading about ur garage door.

I have a similar situation with one of my planned double walls being up against a garage door. that will be a triple leaf. but i'm actually going to make the gap as small as possible in hope of keeping any resonaces out of bass range.

what if u hung a small hanging membrane in the gap maybe thatll help with the bass range. ur trying to cut bass down right? if u didnt get that far yet. -jal

jal wrote:

what if u hung a small hanging membrane in the gap maybe thatll help with the bass range. ur trying to cut bass down right?

That might help the room sound better (a.k.a. absorbtion), but it will do virtually nothing to help the room from a soundproofing perspective (a.k.a. isolation).

jal, if i get your meaning that would make 4 leaves ... you want 2 leaves. so the key is to eliminate that gap, by filling it with something solid and airtight. hanging a limp membrane between leaves is something i've seen tossed around but to my knowledge there is no data to support this practice. in a standard 2 leaf wall it should actually make things worse, by cutting the airgap in half. you want one airgap, as wide as you can afford. dan

the membrane would be considered another leaf?? hmmm.... im not sure why though cause its not attached to the top or bottom. i thought it would just be a thin film in between the gap that would slow the bass energy down. im not very good with all this scientific equations, i learn by doing and seeing. ive also helped a couple of the more premier studios in town with their construction, not design though mind u. thats what u guys are for, haha. -jal

jal wrote:

i thought it would just be a thin film in between the gap that would slow the bass energy down.

Sounds like a claim from our friends at SoundProofingMembraneSnakeOil.com. ;) Seriously... Thin film has no mass, and the only thing that stops bass is two massive masses of mass.

sharward wrote:

Sounds like a claim from our friends at SoundProofingMembraneSnakeOil.com. ;)

:lol:

Dan, Don't know if this got answered but: ""seriously. i wondered, do i really know that a 1/4 inch gap (ok, maybe 1/2 inch) here and there under my drywall will have a serious impact on the wall's performance? isn't the m-a-m frequency of such a gap ridiculously high? maybe i could have saved a lot of effort and preserved the moisture barrier integrity of my wall by just putting the drywall up against the lumpy surface."" For what it's worth I just finished installing my first layer of dywall and I left the recomended 1/4-1/2 gap bottom and top. It seemed to work fine except you use ALOT of caulk filling this gap. I also had to put three layers of caulk down over several days because as it drys it shrinks slightly and you find that fine gaps and cracks appear after a few days that need re doing. I have also been thinking that caulk does not have the same "stopping power" as wallboard but I suppose you need something in these gaps to allow natural movement of the building - normal old plaster would just crack. I also have been wondering how long this stuff lasts? Anyway enough ramblimg - I hope this was what you were talking about!! probally not - New Zealand/USA language barrier problem again!! JG

John, Thanks for sharing your caulk experience, i'll be getting into that shortly as i'm the proud owner of one case of acoustic caulk, purchased last week. yes i'm easily thrilled :P did you use foam backer rod? that's apparently a big help in successful caulking, but it's seldom mentioned, even though it's apparently a HUGE help. in fact some would say it's VITAL. so maybe if you haven't you should try that on your next layer. but actually what i was worried about was gaps between the wallboard and the layer below it, not the gaps to the sides. surface to surface gaps, not edge to edge gaps. the outer layer of my walls is very bumpy, that's the problem. Dan :)

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

. . . i'm the proud owner of one case of acoustic caulk, purchased last week . . .

Talk, schmalk -- we need pictures man! Pictures of a case of caulk? Damn straight! ;)

hee hee :D is no detail too obscure for this thread? i say NO! or do i mean YES? ... okay i'll try to do better from now on. pix of the outside of Acoustic Material Services in san leandro (cheers Keith!), pix of the guys at the counter, everything ...

Hi Dan, No didn't use a backer rod as this was the second layer of wall board (I was beefing up my original wall). Only heard of one of these after the fack anyway. Ignorance is bliss!! JG

well it took me longer than i thought to try out the mortar instead of the stucco. work has suddenly become super busy with 12 hour days and weekend work etc. so no mortar this week. until today :) had maybe 90 minutes to plunge into the mortar scene. it was stucco like, but smoother. i was hoping to be able to say, "smooth like butta," but i guess i haven't quite figured out the proper mix proportions. but it wasn't bad. my tool of choice this time was a yellow plastic 8" taping knife from home depot. its flexibility allowed me to use it nearly flat against the mortar and yet with enough angle that the mortar didn't try to stick to the blade. it was easy to make the surface smooth. it was easy to see the unevenness. i could carve away the occasional bump, and fill in the random indentations. i came away confident in the flatness. ah, sweet flatness. my favorite attribute in an outer leaf interior surface. i found it good to work patiently, wet into wet, not skipping around to fill in odd sections but slowly lay down a new layer from bottom to top. wetter is better. it is good to spray a mist of water on areas that are done, but don't seem to have that glistening smoothness. then you go over them gently with the yellow blade. a glistening smooth surface can be made. before i forget: good idea to put plastic down on the bottom plate and the floor or whatever you might, actually WILL, drop mortar (and stucco) on. because you will be dropping a lot of mortar. but you will get the hang of it. wear a mask while mixing mortar or stucco, a good idea. can be bad for the lungs. IS bad for the lungs. have a hose handy with an attachment that can be turned off or can spray the finest of mists at a moment's notice. still have a way to go. now have only finished one 16" section. but it should get easier and faster. next time, i'll try using mortar only (the first section was stucco first, then mortar. i didn't like the stucco, too chunky). below are a couple of pix. one, shows the mix that i thought was pretty good. you can see how wet it is. the other, shows the sweet, sweet smoothness of the wall. dan

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

had maybe 90 minutes to plunge into the mortar . . .

Nooooo, Dan! :shock: Don't do that!

. . . scene.

Ohhhh, I get it -- you weren't actually plunging into mortar! :roll: Whew! ;)

. . . i was hoping to be able to say, "smooth like butta," . . . ah, sweet flatness. my favorite attribute in an outer leaf interior surface. . . the sweet, sweet smoothness of the wall.

Nothing to add here -- I just felt those Danisms needed to be replayed. ;)

LOL to funny Kieth

The past two weeks have been busy, but not with studio-building unfortunately. I've been busy helping out with the launch of our company's new magazine, Scrapbook Answers. I know all of you are closet scrapbookers, so go buy a copy when it comes out in 2 weeks! The past couple of weeks have put me in a gloomy mood studio-wise. Having no time to work on the studio makes it seem like it's going to take a million times longer. Go figure! So I've been whining to mikeklooster about how hard it is to smooth out bumpy stucco with mortar. I began to suspect that some of that whining and moaning was due to the fact I hadn't had any time to work. So I found a little window of time to "speed-mortar" a 16" section of my wall. I needed to get something done, to start out the week with some hope of getting some work done before the baby comes (did i mention my wife's having a baby any minute now? THAT will not help the studio progress AT ALL :P ) So I looked at the clock, changed into ratty clothes, turned on the radio, ran the hose under the garage door and started mixin' some mortar. I made it really nice and wet and gooey. If you make it too wet, that's just about wet enough. I went fast. I didn't worry too much about how much was going on the floor, just about the speed. And it DID go quickly, to my surprise. This was my third session at this after all and i WAS getting better! Ah, the steepness of the initial learning curve! Will I ever get over your allure? My strategy this time was to go from bottom to top, as usual, but to be a little sloppy. To go fast, before my wet-down of the old stucco dried too much (although it did anyway, and then i sprayed too much water on). So i got to the top pretty quickly, with a pretty thick buttering, but not smooth. I did this with the trusty 8" yellow drywall knife. Rather than just use the rather weak handle to press the mortar on, i used my other hand against the flat of the blade for extra leverage. This worked well. Then I stepped back and started in again at the bottom with my 7-inch trowel, smoothing out the bumps and looking for holes that needed filling. Using mostly the tip of the trowel, which is rounded. This was a much slower process but somehow satisfying and engrossing. It was a pretty thick layer. I was a bit worried, since it was so thick and also quite wet, that a big chunk might just peel off and land on my head while i was squatting down at the bottom. But there was no sign of movement. So. The final time, after clean up and everything, to get a surface that was pretty darn flat in one 16" x 7 foot section? Forty-five minutes. That's it. Really not very long at all. AND: The first section i did i had to do in two sessions, because i had used stucco and it turned out too rough, and i didn't know what i was doing. This section i did the entire thing, in one session, with mortar, in 45 minutes. and it is just as smooth as the other section (pretty much). So how thick is it? I was trying to lay it on a little thick, just because i thought it would be easier to get smooth. But mainly i was just trying to get it smooth. After i finished i poked it with a nail in a few different places, not super thoroughly but enough, and the depth range of the mortar was 1/16 inch to about 5/16 inch. and this was THICK in my opinion. remember i felt like it was about to peel off and land on my head. so, if anyone thinks they can trowel on a half inch or an inch of mortar or anything else on a vertical surface, i wish them good luck. it just doesn't seem possible. to get the amount of fluidity you need to trowel something on, this same property of fluidity will mean the stuff will just flow down the wall. i think. so to add let's say an inch of stucco/mortar what have you, i think you would really need to do this in about 4 different sessions. at least 3. but i could be wrong. maybe next time, rather than going for speed, i'll go for thickness and see how thickly i can put it on. pix below. the browner colored one is without flash, lit by a halogen lamp, while the other grey ones use the camera's flash. the camera flash seems to "flatten out" the texture so i tried it without. the top one is the finished surface. dan

Go, Dan, Go!! :twisted:

Dan The Speed Mortar Man wrote:

Will I ever get over your allure?

Doubtful! ;) I'm trying to decide what I find more awe-inspiring:

The fact that our very own Dan is indeed part of the Scrapbook Answers magazine The fact that Dan found his "Shift" key and is now typing in mixed case -- now that is a specticle if ever there was one! ...or... That you were able to complete a section in a mere 45 minutes.

Bravo for all of the above accomplishments!

well i did my best on the shift key. my shifting pinkie ran out of gas toward the end, and still hasn't recovered. :)

Ok dan Ive got a simple question for you. How bad is your bowing? Mine is not bad at all, except for one section that the paper is damaged at. Im still very interested in the mortar only idea(or a mortar like product), but only if its easy, and cheap. Or a good combo of easy and cheap,like really easy not that cheap(even or cheaper than the drywall way)or really cheap and not really easier. All the babble after my simple question leads me to this. If the bowing is just slight, a thin layer of mortar to level a bit. And steves 2x2 highly buttered idea for drywall just might be the easiest. Probably slow, but simple and efective. Oh I just realized something else. Can you mortar on the drywall? isnt there supposed to be a vapor barrier in between the cement and drywall? I dont know if I already understood this and forgot, but I kinda stumped right now

mikeklooster wrote:

How bad is your bowing?

probably around 5/16 or so, but i also have regular horizontal depressions from wire that was strung behind the paper, those are probably about the same. you can definitely smooth it out with one coat of mortar or equivalent. BUT: mike, you have 100 or so to do, right? at 45 min per 16" section that's about 56 hours of mortaring. so do you really want to do it? or is there an easier way? then again, i have re-discovered (from IR-586) definitely that little gaps DO make a big difference (see graph below). gypsum DIRECTLY applied to block walls leaves gaps big enough to cause serious low frequency suckiness. (it would have been better not to add the gypsum at all). so 5/16 gaps would probably be worse.

mikeklooster wrote:

If the bowing is just slight, a thin layer of mortar to level a bit.

yes that will work fine

mikeklooster wrote:

And steves 2x2 highly buttered idea for drywall just might be the easiest. Probably slow, but simple and efective.

no disrespect to steve (and i did suggest this idea before myself), but i don't like it. i'm afraid you would get bubbles, but you'd never know because you can't see them. i'm going to mud the mortar, and then sand it smooth, and then add paper and then gypsum.

mikeklooster wrote:

isnt there supposed to be a vapor barrier in between the cement and drywall?

yeah i think so. i'm cheating a bit with a thin layer of mud on the mortar, but my drywall will be on the other side of the vapor retarder (building paper).

mikeklooster wrote: isnt there supposed to be a vapor barrier in between the cement and drywall? yeah i think so. i'm cheating a bit with a thin layer of mud on the mortar, but my drywall will be on the other side of the vapor retarder (building paper). If that merkrete stuff is waterproof, I guess it could possibly ve a vapor barrier, or if no drywall after would help keep inside dryer because you dont need a vapor barrier really except behind the studs.Right?probably no

it's hard to say how vapor permeable merkrete is. i couldn't find the data. the reason i wonder is that for example Tyvek is waterproof too more or less but is VERY vapor permeable. so i think they are different things. the main worry about stucco (i think) is that it will crack, and water will get in. stucco is vapor permeable, which is a good thing in a mixed climate, but if it cracks then you maybe have problems, so you need a backup barrier. not a barrier but a retarder, actually. in northern california you want the whole wall to be fairly vapor permeable both ways, but waterproof to the exterior. as far as i understand.

yeah i think so. i'm cheating a bit with a thin layer of mud on the mortar, but my drywall will be on the other side of the vapor retarder (building paper).

If your paper is inbetween the drywall and the mud/mortar/stucco, then wont there be airgaps or can you get it that tight? If my bowing in most places is very minor, and theres a chance for inconsistancies putting drywall over the paper, why cant I just add the drywall over the paper with no smoothing? If the drywall is tight on the paper pressing against stucco, the slack in the paper could gather in the corner where the little gaps at the edges from the bowing are. The gaps would be filled, dry wall is up and Im done....yaya?

my surface that i'm putting the paper on is going to be pretty flat, so as long as i don't wrinkle the paper i shouldn't get any gaps. hopefully. the data shows that adding just one layer if you have gaps will make iso worse in low freq. so i'm not sure that's the best plan...

This weekend was "back with a vengeance" weekend as I hadn't been able to spend much time on studio building for the past few weeks. Today my wife even took the kids away for the entire day, and I almost gave myself heatstroke trying to make the most of it. On Saturday I finished mortaring all of the lumpy stucco sections. That didn't take long, a few hours. But I only had a relatively small amount to do in the first place, thankfully, only a section of wall about 12 feet long. Thankfully, the rest of the existin structure that I'll be using is wood siding, which is flat. Also on Saturday I began mudding the finished mortared sections, to create an even flatter, sandable surface. I had done two sections earlier, and these were dry. I wetted the mortar before applying the mud, and it went on nicely. Other than the fact that there was a diagonal brace running through my wall complicating matters :evil: the plaster went on easy and pretty flat. Today I finished plastering (mudding) all of the mortared sections, with the exeption of the meter box section, which i had forgotten to do and i mortared the bottom section of that today as well. The top will be a bear to figure out and I haven't yet. Unfortunately I forgot to wet the mortar beforehand today and so I had a hell of a time applying the mud, it was much more difficult. I couldn't figure out why so I kept adding water to thin the mix. Only after I finished the whole job did I remember I should have wet the surface. :oops: I did a little preliminary sanding and the surface is pretty smooth, although not perfect. Maybe i will spot fill some areas during the week, but we will see if i can be bothered. At some point enough is enough. It's pretty smooth. One problem I did have since I only waited less than 24 hours was that some of the mortar did crumble and get into my mud, which was very aggravating. I couldn't wait as I had to get this done today, but I recommend waiting longer ... also maybe try to knock off any loose bits you see before mudding. Much of the rest of the day was spent going to the dump and picking up materials. I finally managed to get the 13 bags of drywall to the dump. That was quite a chore, as some of the bags were so heavy I had trouble lifting them into the van (granted, I was a bit tired from all that mortaring and mudding :wink: ). Then I went to Home Depot and picked up enough OSB and drywall to get the wall finished (well, closer anyway :) ) yes it was a little weird taking all that drywall to the dump and then, on the way home from the dump, stopping at HD to buy more drywall. i have to keep reminding myself, "yes i AM sane, dammit." I've been having the hardest time trying to figure a plan on how to attach the multiple layers of drywall to my wall. holding them in place with cleats didn't seem practical because each layer needs to be caulked so you need to cleat each layer seperately. that just seemed to not be a good way to go. although it would work. but it occured to me that when you cleat a layer into place, where do you caulk? you'd have to caulk between the drywall and the cleat, and then also between the cleat and the stud. twice as much caulk/caulking. unelss you made cleats that were only short sections, so some of the drywall/stud corners were accessible, but this gets so complicated with multiple layers i couldn't make it work. also what if you had so many layers that you ran out of room on your studs to attach cleats. you probably need about an inch for a cleat, so that leaves you 1.5 inches for drywall. which may not be enough. so my plan now is to attach with cleats a layer of 7/16 OSB to my smooth surface and then screw subsequent layers to that. 7/16 doesn't give you a lot of depth for the screw to grip, but it is adequate and then if you are worried about strength you can rig up some kind of cleat or something at the end. unfortunately i had a problem. i had planned to use all 1/2 inch drywall because i'm just one person and i can fling 1/2 inch around easier than 5/8. but, the shortest drywall screws are 1 inch. after a quick test on the actual material, it was determined that 1 inch screws come out the other side of the OSB ... just a little, but i wasn't taking any chances after spending all that time smoothing my walls. the screws might go into my layer of mud but then again the wood was dimpling out and i think it would create gaps. also the screw could run into a bare patch of mortar. no good. :cry: so back to HD for some 5/8 drywall. i was beat, i wasn't happy, but i had the van with the seats out and now was the time to do it. so now i've got 1" screws into 5/8 drywall into 7/16 OSB, which works fine, and i've got 1.5 inch screws for the second layer of 1/2 inch drywall on top of that, whihc also works fine. screws come in 1/2 inch increments so i should be able to add layers to my heart's content without trouble. :wink: i'm still not sure how many layers i'll do. maybe 1 layer 5/8 and 2 layers 1/2. that will give me a 5/8 stucco, 7/16 osb, 5/8 drywall, and 2 layers 1/2 inch drywall. that should be good. but i can always add another layer of 1/2 inch drywall. and adding that extra 1/2 inch will be about the easiest part of building this wall. BY FAR. another problem i ran into was with the backing rod. at my HD it came in 3/8, which seemed about right width wise for a 1/4 inch crack BUT i've suddenly realized that that will leave AT MOST 1/8 inch for caulk and probably less, since it will bulge out when compressed in the crack. will this be enough of a groove for the caulk? even the backing rod package says to leave 1/4 inch groove. another reason to use 5/8 inch gypsum i guess. well, i guess i'll find out soon enough. at least i can use the backing rod i bought in the first layer. then i can figure out if it will work in the thinner layers. i was having a bit of difficulty deciding how to attach my new layers of asphalt paper to the mud layer, and get the old paper to lay down and stick to my new paper. first i thought about using wallpaper paste, which i guessed would keep things vapor permeable. but apparently such thing may no longer exist, only a thing called wallpaper "activator." no matter. i was thinking about buying a gallon of elmers glue, again thinking this is water based, it might be ok. and it is cheap enough to use liberally. then again it might be too runny, i have my doubts about it being able to hold that heavy paper where i want it. but then i saw 3M Super 77 spray adhesive, which i've used before in my work. This seemed like it might work for my purpose. The plan is to use very little, just enough to get the paper to stick in place until the OSB goes up and holds it in place. if i use very little the permeablility of the system shouldn't be affected too much. you can use very little but it's very sticky. Anyway that's about it except i did buy one of those things that automatically disengages the drill when the screw is the proper depth. that should speed things up. and don't laugh, but i bought a hard hat. i bumped my head a few too many times on my garage door track this weekend, and i'm sure it will come in handy as this project continues. :D

:mrgreen: Go Dan! :mrgreen: Go Dan! :mrgreen: Go Dan! :mrgreen:

. . . i have to keep reminding myself, "yes i AM sane, dammit."

Uh, right! :roll: ;)

. . . so my plan now is to attach with cleats a layer of 7/16 OSB to my smooth surface and then screw subsequent layers to that.

Awesome idea! :D I think I'll do that when I beef up my interior walls (since my exterior wall already has OSB).

. . . i can always add another layer of 1/2 inch drywall. and adding that extra 1/2 inch will be about the easiest part of building this wall. BY FAR.

Yeah, good point! 8) Might as well, eh?

. . . but then i saw 3M Super 77 spray adhesive, which i've used before in my work. . .

Ah yes! That and a wax roller, eh? ;) (Those were the days!)

. . . and don't laugh, but i bought a hard hat. i bumped my head a few too many times on my garage door track this weekend, and i'm sure it will come in handy as this project continues.

Yeah, I actually figured on getting one too... :roll: It is a construction zone after all, right? Awesome diary entry, Dan... Just think of how many people you're helping. 8) --Keith :mrgreen: