Studio Design for a 28' by 22' garage

here are some pictures. The are of the front wall. The construction there will be coming down and changed.(oops moved too fast)

these are from the inside of the extension. Shingle will be coming off as well.

Ahhhhh, pictures! :) And 3-D imagery! :mrgreen: I see that in the first photo of your 4:22 PM post, there is already ain "inner leaf wall" under construction. I recall your saying in a previous post that construction has stopped until plans can be finalized. That's good, because there's nothing separating the inner leaf from the outer leaf the way that framing is attached to the truss and floor.

yeah that caused a big hault . I walked out and new it was wrong but didnt quite know what todo. I think the kenetics sway braces for ceiling joists will work and ive talked to them. I hope there not over priced metal and rubber. If not ill make some like in knightflys strings. The floors i havent seen much on. Ive seen the products but is there easy solutions, or at least cheap. I have 1/4 inch neopreme under them but the nails create contact. And ive heard knightfly say to maybe not use it. Can I just deal with the top? Thats where im at. Tkae care and thanx for the love.

mikeklooster wrote:

yeah that caused a big hault . I walked out and new it was wrong but didnt quite know what todo.

Be very glad you made the discovery before too much got built! I would think that undoing what has been done incorrectly already will be quite easy to reverse. 8)

I think the kenetics sway braces for ceiling joists will work and ive talked to them. I hope there not over priced metal and rubber. If not ill make some like in knightflys strings.

Ah, yes, the famous McGyver solution that Knightfly concocted with the L brackets, some rubber, some glue, and a 9-volt battery! (Battery optional.) ;) I need to make a decision about that myself -- how will I brace my inner frames to my outer frames without flanking? (That's just me thinking out loud.)

The floors i havent seen much on. Ive seen the products but is there easy solutions, or at least cheap. I have 1/4 inch neopreme under them but the nails create contact. And ive heard knightfly say to maybe not use it. Can I just deal with the top? Thats where im at.

The whole "do I float the floor or don't I" question has been asked and answered here a lot. (I know, because I'm one of the guys who asked! ;) ) My project is simpler than yours in that mine's just a jam room, whereas you've got a C.R., possibly a booth, and a live room. Which floor(s) should you float? Dunno. It may depend largely on what kinds of music (death metal? contemporary jazz?) you intend to record in there, how close your neighbors are, etc. Answer those questions, and then the real experts can pop in. Regardless, if you haven't seen my thread lately, you should definitely check out my EPDM puck compression test results. (Truthfully, I just want you to admire my nifty graph. ;) )

Tkae care and thanx for the love.

No sweat. Hey, I see an opportunity developing here for a little "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" thing -- at some point there will be lumber to move and attach, and such things are generally easier with more hands, attached to bodies with noggins that have an appreciation for what is being accomplished and some knowledge of mistakes to avoid! 8)

Im sorry I miss worded myself. ( not that I Know all about floors) I meant the walls in rooms im not floating the floor. Just good caulk and the nails in the cement. or floated or is there a way to neopreme and fasten,( Ithrnk i saw a guy bolt down and had rubber bushings,) Can you use rubber bushings with nails. By the way I think im floating the control room. Ive been dabbling in reading, and it seems complicated. Is cement way more expensive than other methods( there seems to be many methods. Are there super simple ways to float the rec room , otherwise i just cant. I know people say to do the drum room first but i m thinkin a drum riser. As for neighbors, ive been recording here for 5 years with no treatment (and great results, i might add) but ive been fortunate. A nun moved next door a year and a half ago. I thought i was done, but if i quit early enough she was totally cool. My main drummer, ( i produce his band, we have a band and i use him most of the for sessions, moved in when the nun left, after a 4 month stay on my couch. So things are pretty good here, but i want 2am rock. after the bar rock, ya know. As for helpin I am totally down. Ill be honest im pretty inexperienced with a hammer or any other tool ( hence my contractor, and poor lingo). But I hussle and id love to see a project in the next stages. PS ive seen your string, i glanced through it many times, but as well if you remember knightfly used you as an example of how to state your purpose and gave you te pic of the year award.Quit being the teachers pet!!! im going for the most retarded disign that actually might work award. Double PS after seing my pics, do you know if my disign is workin in the 2 leaf world. id love to know that soon..

heres my complete design up to date. go ahead thear me apart.

ive been reading around more and im confused about something. (excuse me if ive read it wrong) but through different strings ive believe ive heard knightfly say different things concerning RC. 1) In a double frame system usic RC is a mute point. 2)put RC on walls opposite where loud bass levels are coming and not on those wall...i understand that as for example no rc on wall where drums are but rc on control room wall. 3) I have that wierd situation of the old garage outerwall being in my studio. I have designed a split wall that i think avoids this but im not sure the structures strong enough. I think it is and I think its the right thing to do, but RC would be much easier on that wall. Is it effective or should I stay away from a wall that joins the structure? How much difference? 4) With all double walls is there anywhere I would benefit from RC or am I freeof that?

mikeklooster wrote:

Im sorry I miss worded myself. ( not that I Know all about floors) I meant the walls in rooms im not floating the floor. Just good caulk and the nails in the cement. or floated or is there a way to neopreme and fasten,( Ithrnk i saw a guy bolt down and had rubber bushings,) Can you use rubber bushings with nails.

I'm fairly certain that conventional wisdom here is that the best results are achieved by floating the room. Imagine gravity not being an issue, with a smaller box within a larger box, with no part of the inner box touching the outer box. That's the ideal. Unfortunately, that pesky gravity thing always ruins the fun. So, while it's "somewhat" easy to keep the inner ceiling from touching the outer ceiling, and the inner wall from touching the outer wall, everything has to "touch down" to something, and hopefully that gravity point of contact is cushioned with something resilient, such as EPDM rubber. Now, imagine floating a floor on rubber pucks, firmly attaching the inner walls to the floating floor, and attaching the inner ceiling to the inner walls. That, I believe, is pretty much the closest thing to the levitating box I rambled about in the preceding paragraph. Bolting your inner walls to the outer floor would be in the category of "not ideal" I think. Bolting your inner walls to the floor with rubber cusions and washers would also probably not be ideal. I'll defer to experts on that.

By the way I think im floating the control room. Ive been dabbling in reading, and it seems complicated. Is cement way more expensive than other methods( there seems to be many methods. Are there super simple ways to float the rec room , otherwise i just cant.

My understanding is that concrete (which is different than cement) is good bang for buck, simply because of its mass and relative economy. I chose clay masonry, for its similar density and puzzle-piece attributes -- something that is feasiby do-it-myself. The concepts of soundproofing (mass-air-mass, decoupling, etc.) are pretty simple, but implementing it is not. Kinetics Noise Control sells their Model RIM Model Concrete Floor, which does simplify things, but it may be pricey.

I know people say to do the drum room first but i m thinkin a drum riser.

Careful with drum risers. They're not a magic bullet. You may want to research that more here.

As for neighbors, ive been recording here for 5 years with no treatment (and great results, i might add) but ive been fortunate. A nun moved next door a year and a half ago. I thought i was done, but if i quit early enough she was totally cool. My main drummer, ( i produce his band, we have a band and i use him most of the for sessions, moved in when the nun left, after a 4 month stay on my couch. So things are pretty good here, but i want 2am rock. after the bar rock, ya know.

That's remarkable! Just keep in mind, what you've been doing has probably been a violation of the law, and your neighbors just haven't reported it yet. Are you familiar with the details of Stockton's noise ordinances? If not, you should become familiar with them. It then may become a numbers game: Take the decibel levels you expect to generate, subtract the decibel levels the city allows, and you'll have a difference -- that difference is the amount of soundproofing you'll need to achieve. For 2am rock, I'm betting you'll need substantial soundproofing, especially at the low end of the spectrum. I also think, based on what I've learned engineering my own project, that you'll need to float. Also, are you getting permits for all this work? If not, be warned. Imagine doing all this work, and then in spite of all your efforts, a neighbor still complains about the noise. The city sends a code enforncement officer to your property, who cites you not only for a noise ordinance violation (which effectively shuts you down), but also cites you for unpermitted construction, with fines that could run into the thousands of dollars (many times over what permitting and inspection fees would have run), plus the chief building inspector could demand that you tear everything down. In my city, the fine for unpermitted construction is 4x the amount of a legitimate permit. In short, you don't want to be at the mercy of your neighbors not reporting you. OK, lecture's over. ;)

As for helpin I am totally down. Ill be honest im pretty inexperienced with a hammer or any other tool ( hence my contractor, and poor lingo). But I hussle and id love to see a project in the next stages.

Cool! 8) Caveats duly noted.

PS ive seen your string, i glanced through it many times, but as well if you remember knightfly used you as an example of how to state your purpose and gave you te pic of the year award.Quit being the teachers pet!!! im going for the most retarded disign that actually might work award.

:lol: I laughed so hard when I read that, I was afraid I'd be in for an undergarment change! (I just checked -- all is well. ;) )

Double PS after seing my pics, do you know if my disign is workin in the 2 leaf world. id love to know that soon..

It seems to me that it is -- but what may help is a top-view two-dimensional illustration, with explanations of what is happening in the 4' extension area to assure that there's no hard contact between inner and outer leaves. Great stuff... Keep it comin'. 8) (I see our posts are about to cross. I'll reply to your new post separately.)

mikeklooster wrote:

1) In a double frame system usic RC is a mute point.

Yes, RC on double frame construction is moot. In fact, I believe there's a chance that RC would be slightly worse on double-frame.

2)put RC on walls opposite where loud bass levels are coming and not on those wall...i understand that as for example no rc on wall where drums are but rc on control room wall.

Moot, I think.

3) I have that wierd situation of the old garage outerwall being in my studio. I have designed a split wall that i think avoids this but im not sure the structures strong enough. I think it is and I think its the right thing to do, but RC would be much easier on that wall. Is it effective or should I stay away from a wall that joins the structure? How much difference?

In my opinion, you have enough square footage that you need not entertain RC. RC is, I think, used most often by folks with very limited space. You've got some room. Use it. Double-frame everything. Plus, consider spreading the frames apart a bit -- if your studs are 4-6" apart, you'll get good bang-for-your-buck air gap wideness, which will contribute to your low end TL.

4) With all double walls is there anywhere I would benefit from RC or am I freeof that?

Methinks mootness.

This just in, from another thread:

The Master Of This Domain wrote:

First, with double framed walls you do NOT want to use RC; it's a waste of time/effort/money, for which you get a probable WORSENING of low frequency performance.

Case closed. :mrgreen:

I think I'm actually getting LESS confused by all this; sounds like you're getting close to figuring everything out more or less. On the "leaf" thing - even 4 feet of air space won't eliminate the extra leaf's negative effect on isolation, just lessen it a bit. Sometimes this just can't be helped; in those cases, all I can suggest is to put an extra layer or two of drywall on the two OUTSIDE leaves, that will lessen the 3-leaf "badness" by a few dB; I've no way to calculate how much. If your inner, OLD, garage door framed wall has to have paneling on it, AND it is in contact with your OUTER framing, then that paneling should have RC under it; there's no other way to isolate that paneling so it doesn't flank sound directly to the outer framing and outside. Of course hermetic sealing with good acoustic rated caulk is part of it. That front section, if you panel parts of it, can make a resonant chamber if part is open to the rest of the space and part is paneled (like the upper section) - this could work to advantage if you were to absorb the living s*** out of it and make it into a bass trap. Otherwise not so good. Anyplace you have two opposing surfaces, even if there is nothing sealing or even connecting them to each other, you WILL have a resonant system. This is still true even if you bore 4" diameter HOLES in one or both of the panels; just not as bad as if it were solid. Generally; if a frame is hard connected to both the inner AND the outer leaf of your "containment shell", or mass-air-mass envelope, then you MUST decouple the wallboard on at least one side - if both sides of this non-decoupled frame will be clad, and BOTh sides will be wall surfaces of adjoining rooms, then this would be a rare case where BOTH sides of the frame should have RC or RSIC clips/hat channel; the idea here is to have NO inner wallboard that is hard-coupled to anything that is ALSO hard-coupled to the OUTER leaf. Period. Floating floors - anything LESS than concrete will be a compromise. That's about as simple as I can put it; for effective, FULL FREQUENCY isolation, you need LOTS of MASS and LOTS of insulated AIR space and proper decoupling between that mass and the surroundings. At today's prices for sheet goods, concrete is a BARGAIN - I recently costed out two floated floor systems (theoretical) - the one using wood floor cost more than the concrete version, and had about 3 OCTAVES less isolation on the low end, and less (calculated) isolation throughout the audio band. 3.5" concrete floor, for just the concrete, will cost just under $1 per square foot; MDF or OSB in the thicker sheets costs about $.70 a square foot, and you need THREE LAYERS to be 1/3 as good as the concrete so the concrete will cost about HALF as much for MUCH BETTER isolation. Replace Keith's bricks with a PT 2x4 perimeter frame on 3/4 OSB on PT 2x6's on 1" EPDM, fill that 2x4 perimeter with concrete, (stuff the 2x6 joist cavities with insulation first), and you have a floor that will isolate any frequency you can hear, for almost a buck less per square foot than a "wooden wannabe" - Hope this helped some; lemme know if I missed much, or just confused the issue more :roll: Steve

thanx for the feed back. and i got ya, but i dont know if you understood something. with my current plan i dont think i have a 3 leaf system. theres is shingles on the front of the garage door wall but im taking them off as well my inner wall splits forming the nook below 7 feet and standing with drywall in front of thhe garage door wall frame (4" gap). I even think i have a way to suspend the "nook's" ceiling again not touching the garage door wall. if i leave all open exept that my leaves are 1)inner wall 2) outer wall stucco, and rec room ceiling (nook ceiling included) and the outer roof right?. if this works i have another plan i want to ask about and im trying to draw details of my inner(in front of my gdw"garage door wall") wall construction right now. This is the greatest website ever, even porn

mikeklooster wrote:

thanx for the feed back. and i got ya, but i dont know if you understood something. with my current plan i dont think i have a 3 leaf system. theres is shingles on the front of the garage door wall but im taking them off as well my inner wall splits forming the nook below 7 feet and standing with drywall in front of thhe garage door wall frame (4" gap).

Yeah, as I understand it, that original wall is going to be nothing but a skeleton of studs and headers. Right? If so, then I don't think you have any third leaf issues.

I even think i have a way to suspend the "nook's" ceiling again not touching the garage door wall.

Yeah, that's critical.

. . . if i leave all open exept that my leaves are 1)inner wall 2) outer wall stucco, and rec room ceiling (nook ceiling included) and the outer roof right?

That was worded in a confusing way. I think you're trying to say:

Your walls will be two leaf: inner wall with gypsum on the inside only, and outer wall with stucco on the outside only, insulation in between. Your ceiling/roof will be two leaf: inner ceiling with gypsum on the inside only, and the outer roof with sheathing and shingles.

Please confirm that I got that right. You're referring to "rec room," which I presume is this "what used to be a garage building." You're also referring to "nook ceiling," which I presume is the area in the 4' expansion zone. I wanted to clarify that there is nothing above your head in that building now, except the sheathing and shingles. FYI, you may have an issue with your roof as the second leaf. It's hardly air-tight -- and if it is, it will need to be vented. You may have to do something like what I'm going to do. Technically, my design has a third leaf -- the roof -- but Steve and I have discussed this, and we believe that due to the amount of mass on my innermost leaf, coupled with the fact that the roof is well vented and other factors, it shouldn't be a problem.

if this works i have another plan i want to ask about and im trying to draw details of my inner(in front of my gdw"garage door wall") wall construction right now.

I know that "I have this concept in my head and I need to draw it so that I understand it and I can get feedback on it" feeling very well!! ;)

This is the greatest website ever, even porn

:lol: I humbly propose this new logo for the forum! Just remember, porn sites charge $$. This site accepts $$ on a voluntary basis, so you may want to toss a few bucks their way to show your love. 8)

Anyplace you have two opposing surfaces, even if there is nothing sealing or even connecting them to each other, you WILL have a resonant system. This is still true even if you bore 4" diameter HOLES in one or both of the panels; just not as bad as if it were solid. But if that frame is bare, im ok right? I think I'm actually getting LESS confused by all this; sounds like you're getting close to figuring everything out more or less. Funny Im not Of course hermetic sealing with good acoustic rated caulk is part of it. If im careful cann I wrap my inner walls around the "gdw" and take the wall to the top in the 4 foot area as long as i dont touch the "gdw" and find a way to meat all ends smoothly and keep the "gdw" an open frame? My inner recording/outer control room wall heading throgh the middle of the room. Im not sure ,from the products ive seen, I can mount it (Sway Bracket) to anything. Im niether parralel nor perpindicular to the joists. Do I attach it to the control room wall( think id love to avoid that)? OR if I secure it well on the sides can it travel that15-17' without being secured? Theres a door in it (control room). I still dont know what to do with my walls (floating) I still dont think i can float all floors ( leaving rec room concrete.)Do I have to buy expensive wall floaters or just nail and cock and live with it, OR a cool DIY "Steve Certified" "MacGyver inspired" "cheaper than a 2 dollar whore" way? Im gettin there though, thanx to yall, I havent done anything else in weeks(love to make rock again someday) sorry cant figure out quotin'[/quote]

Your walls will be two leaf: inner wall with gypsum on the inside only, and outer wall with stucco on the outside only, insulation in between. Your ceiling/roof will be two leaf: inner ceiling with gypsum on the inside only, and the outer roof with sheathing and shingles.

yep u got it

FYI, you may have an issue with your roof as the second leaf. It's hardly air-tight -- and if it is, it will need to be vented. You may have to do something like what I'm going to do. Technically, my design has a third leaf -- the roof -- but Steve and I have discussed this, and we believe that due to the amount of mass on my innermost leaf, coupled with the fact that the roof is well vented and other factors, it shouldn't be a problem.

I got a plan 4 dat one. its comin soon

I humbly propose this new logo for the forum! Just remember, porn sites charge $$. This site accepts $$ on a voluntary basis, so you may want to toss a few bucks their way to show your love

well see when my studio works lol actually ive been meanin to do that..cant beat free edu (or next to free)

sorry for replyin so much but got one more question. I was going to use a pvc pipe and run cable snakes through my floor (like ive seen people do here) How can I do that with a cement slab. Trying to avoid costly wirin, dont know much and dont really see much ( maybe I should look more)duh. still if anyones got anythin much oblidged

sharward wrote:

Actually, vair327 is a fellow Sacramentan and we're talking about getting together to go over each others' plans. Maybe you can join us for such a thing. The only thing scarier than two crazy-ass studio design wannabes is three crazy-ass studio design wannabes!

Hey, I just found you guys... I'm up the hill from you, near Auburn, and about to do the garage studio thing as well. I'd love to crash the party! -stick

Stick wrote:

I'd love to crash the party!

Very cool! I just looked at your design thread and your construction thread... Very nice. I'm tempted to start a "Northern California Studio Projects Unite" thread so that poor Mike's thread here doesn't get hijacked. :lol: There's something about "not being alone" in all of this that makes everything seem a little less daunting. 8)

"I'm tempted to start a "Northern California Studio Projects Unite" thread" - Prob'ly not a bad plan, this is getting too confusing already; that way, the NCSPU can meet without meting out mayhem mainly... :? Mike, finally got some time to look more closely at your pix; before we get any further, does your new, extended, garage front STRUCTURALLY replace the need for the old, header/frame/no paneling, wall? If so, cool; otherwise, your building may be a disaster waiting to happen; By that, I'm referring to your roof construction. Looks to me like it's stick-built, with only rafters (no trusses), and only every OTHER rafter with a collar tie near the peak. I'm assuming this building has been there awhile? I'm also assuming that the front wall (old one) was about the only thing keeping the walls from laying over to one side or the other during a fair wind, and now, without paneling, that frame has NO CONTROL OVER RACKING MOVEMENT (side to side, that is) - So again, hopefully that's been replaced with the extension? It's hard to tell exactly from the pix, but it appears that you have duplicated the old front wall frame clear to the roof peak, except for the garage door and header? If so, what's to stop you from REMOVING that entire frame after sistering in an extra rafter/collar tie or two? Let's get this part cleared up in my mind first, then we can concentrate on where to go from here... Steve

"Mike, finally got some time to look more closely at your pix; before we get any further, does your new, extended, garage front STRUCTURALLY replace the need for the old, header/frame/no paneling, wall?" not sure but i can check, a hunch says no. [/quote]with only rafters (no trusses), and only every OTHER rafter with a collar tie near the peak. I'm assuming this building has been there awhile? [/quote] yah id say 30-35 yrs. Dont i have a truss down the middle? We moved the rafters up for the ceiling hieght

t's hard to tell exactly from the pix, but it appears that you have duplicated the old front wall frame clear to the roof peak, except for the garage door and header? If so, what's to stop you from REMOVING that entire frame after sistering in an extra rafter/collar tie or two?

i dont know. Ill definitly check this out with my contractor. I also have a possible remedie. I hadnt mentioned this yet because I wanted to be sure the disign I had was correct( 2 leaf),We have stopped construction until I am done, so as far as structual I have not checked these ideas. But I think, according to the 2 leaf principle, that if i add a storage spot above the nook, but treat as a vsimple iso booth then wouldnt I still be adhering to the rule. Also would it replace the support that the paneling used to provide. I was going to add an iso/closet on the other side of the entrance. I would probably just do a drywall with rc on the frame(old outer wall) antd the frame of the new inner wall. I would much rather thake it out but ill have to look into that. Im not underestimating the concerns here and I want to resolve this problem first and foremost, but if my theories sound absurd its because of my lack of understanding in this field. Although im supplying all the studio tech advice from what i learn here, my contractor is very good and i trust his judgement as well as yours and others on this site. I think between all of that we can figure it out. Thanx again sincerely, mike klooster

It's funny, Mike -- I was envisioning a ladder in the same spot as where you have it. However, rather than creating a full-fledged "quasi iso booth" up there, I just figured you'd be able to have a platform of wooden planks (5/8" x 3 1/2", with 1" gaps in between?) up there as a platform to put stuff on... Maybe some fabric between the planks and the insulation. The gaps between the slats would (I would think :roll: ) minimize or eliminate any "third leaf effect... You wouldn't even have to do anything with the walls up there -- just cover the insulation with fabric, and perhaps held in with a couple of wooden furring strips. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would be functional, and easier to build than the booth idea. Plus, I imagine this area would be the last item to get finished, and you'll be so sick and tired of working on the place at that time that you'd welcome a semi-quick fix. 8) That's just an idea I have... We'll see if the brains around here think it's crazy (or, crazy enough to work). :)

ya i thought that too but i thought you needed two leaves between isolation rooms and wouldnt this follow that and yeild even more isolation from the recording room.?

Good point -- I guess it depends on whether or not that roof will be considered a leaf... And it very well may not be, given the fact that it's probably ventillated.

ive never heard that, can you tell me more (ventalation). Also I forgot to mention the garage is now attached to a patio cover that is an extention of the pitched roof. The structure is new and sound with 4x12 beams running along side the roof and all held up by 4x4s. I realize i might have flanking, because of the connected roof but I probably makes the garage alot stronger. The roof extends until it connects to my house with a perpindicular pitch forming an L.