Studio Design for a 28' by 22' garage

Got photos?

no and im flyin to NY so itll have to wait til i get back(sat)

Your garage is pretty old and was (and, for the moment, still is) "unfinished" inside: all the timber was exposed for you to see. As a result, there is no "attic" per se. (Right?) If you do the enclosures you're talking about, you'll have an attic of sorts. The attic will need to be ventillated, just as all attics are (or should be). Ventillation is pretty much the opposite of sealed, and in order for a leaf to be effective in a soundproofing situation, the leaf must be sealed. You're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place: stuff needs to be air-tight, yet it needs to be ventillated. Thus, you look for a solution that gives you ventillation without compromising your soundproofing too much. In my design, I have an inner leaf ceiling (which I haven't built yet), an outer leaf ceiling (which is the current garage ceiling that I intend to "bulk up" with an extra layer of rock), and a roof. The roof is, essentially, a third leaf. However, the fact that the attic is ventillated mitigates the third leaf effect as far as resonance goes and may dampen sound somewhat as far as TL is concerned. (At least, that's what I recall from my conversation with Steve -- I may be wrong on some of the details, but the conclusion is the same.) In your design, it appears that you have an inner ceiling (which you haven't built yet) and a roof. If the roof is ventillated (such as a turbine vent on top, or soffit vents around the outside), then the roof may not be an effective outer leaf. If the roof is not ventillated, then you have an illegal unventillated attic that would probably cause major problems for you down in the not too distant future. So far you haven't indicated how you'd gain access to the attic (perhaps there may be a way to have an access door in the "nook" area). I know, it's a major buzzkill, but I'm going to say it: Permit. I'm dealing with the headaches of complying with building code myself as I type this. Have you considered hiring John to design your studio for you? I wonder if all of these factors would be taken into consideration in that effort. Hope that helps. :mrgreen:

Mike, no you don't have trusses; you have separate, "stick built", rafters - every second rafter has a "collar tie", those are the horizontals near the peak. Running full length of the building at the peak, is a Ridge Board - into which each rafter is fastened. This is how older construction was done; if done right, it held up pretty good, but trusses are stronger with smaller lumber required. These are trusses; the entire assembly is called a Truss, and each piece of wood within the assembly is called a Chord; the uppermost chords on each side are also usually called Rafters. The truss's strength comes from engineered geometry such that each section of the truss makes a triangle; as long as no fasteners come loose, one of the sections of the triangle would have to break before the shape can change much. Notice that each truss, although different, has that "triangle thing" goin' on. Here are a few more terms. Thought some definitions of terms might help clear some of the confusion... Steve

thanks steve, that prompted me to do a little search of my own, which led to this site; ancient illustrations but shows how framing is (or used to be :) ) done with names etc. Use back-up-next butons near top of page to get around dan

Dan, thanks for the link; added it to my bookmarks for discussions such as this... Steve

ok i think i understand yall now. Totally missed the vented cieling not a leaf rule,sorry.(correct me if thats wrong). So my new idea is to dry wall 1 layer(more if structure allows) sealing all vents into a attic space.What are some ideas to improve structure? a.Built trusses on every other joist(the ties are every other one than that) the same size as the ties? This picture is excluding"old inner wall"

So my rec room will support its own ceiling under new ceiling (attic space). The actual wall constr can vary, but i was carefull to add plenty of what I think is support. The widest spot in the floated ceiling is 13' and is supprted by my horizontal beam idea. The average width is 10'. The joists will be 2x4 and rest with 1" clearence from attic ceiling. The "nook" area is also supported for about 11' by some kind of beam. a.Gluelam? pardon my spelling b.4x4? c.should the beam travel across the top of inner door as well, allthe way across(22"), or other suggestions? The top of the wall I drew a truss(not sure if totally correct) Is this a good idea or do I just bring up studs to top? Any suggestions on what it would take to get rid of "old inner wall"?

Now I add the "nook" part of the construction. it slopes down a little to avoid the 4x10 beam(starting at 7' and ending about 5'). The 2x4 ceiling joists are connected to the beam in the inner wall. the side veiw is the left side of the overhead. I maid the back wall of rec room (in side veiw) straight even though it has that 6 deg slope just out of simplicity

Have you considered hiring John to design your studio for you? I wonder if all of these factors would be taken into consideration in that effort.

you know i havent i guess because I have no idea how much or whats involved, anyone have a ballpark for stuff like that? Also, Ive added alot of wood, and if coming at this with a whole new angle, where eliminating that old outer wall and resupporting the garage might be a reasonable expense now.

I don't have the time at the moment (nor, most probably, the expertise) to dissect all of your drawings, but I just have to say that your project is definitely "coming of age" and you can be very proud of the effort and thought you're putting into the planning of this thing. I can't wait to see this thing coming together! I'm really excited for you, dude! 8)

heres an updated top view, and weve moved to page 5 so ill post current pics and info on pg 4 ON ANOTHER NOTE: My mother in law has got a pallette of Tectum wall panels. Ive got alot. 26 sheets of 55"h 40 1/4"w 2"thick. I think its like wall material and absorption combined. Any body know if its any good or where how to use it. You can make clouds and hang it on ready wall in spots. But should I replace the use of dry wall in a room with it? If thats good, itll save me money and possibly work better than drywall??PLEASE??Say its good, itll work and I can rock out any time I want.

oops heres that top view

The search feature is your friend. :mrgreen:

ive looked up tectum and spacepak and i seem to be a pioneer with spacepak and theres only a little info on tectum. got any other searches i can do thanx mike

okive learned a little more about tectum. im assuming i need to build the room and use it as absorption on the walls, but its sold as wall paneling or ceiling tile to be used by itself( i think?). That spacepak seems like the answer to my dreams. except its expensive. Does anyone know if itll wirk

http://www.tectum.com/specifications/Ac ... cation.pdf No mention of Transmission Loss, becaue this stuff is another product erroneously marketed as "sound board" - it will absorb, true, but it's NOT mass for your isolation purposes. Stick to Gypsum for that. On your later drawings; not quite right on the trusses; compare the link I posted on 4-12 to your outer diagonal chords, they need to end further in on the rafter for more support. The idea is for the chord to shorten the effective SPAN of the rafter, section by section, for more strength - Tryin' to hit the sack, so this needs to be short... Steve Oh, I would NOT put more gypsum on your rafters until you at least add Collar ties to ALL the rafters.

No mention of Transmission Loss, becaue this stuff is another product erroneously marketed as "sound board" - it will absorb, true, but it's NOT mass for your isolation purposes. Stick to Gypsum for that.

Ya I had a feelin bout that, but just lookin for miracles.

On your later drawings; not quite right on the trusses; compare the link I posted on 4-12 to your outer diagonal chords, they need to end further in on the rafter for more support. The idea is for the chord to shorten the effective SPAN of the rafter, section by section, for more strength -

I had a feelin youd bust me. As i was drawing I thought a truss might go there and I thought "Id better check the right way to draw this" and I decided to trust luck.Foiled again. But if thats a good idea for the location of a truss, then thats good Ill fix the drawing.

Oh, I would NOT put more gypsum on your rafters until you at least add Collar ties to ALL the rafter

Is that all I have to do? From when we cut and raised them, I still have plenty of wood to do that. I had asked if you thought I should build short trusses (the same height as the collar ties) in the blank spots, but collar ties are way easier. Is there a way to eliminate the "old outer wall" by building trusses at either end? Even if I should keep "OOW" should I rebuild these trusses at ends or even on the "OOW"? Is there enough attic space? If I keep the plan the way it is... Will the rec room cieling hold? (I was going to build truss at other end of rec room also) Is the 1 layer of drywall sealing off attic space enough mass to be a worthy leaf? enough for now i guess thanx again for the luv. mike

Mike, before I get into answering all these please remind me; are you pulling permits for this? Even if you aren't, I can give you basic ideas to check into but I can NOT engineer anything for you; this requires someone with a "sheepskin" that's recognized in your state/city. Collar ties is MINIMUM, btw - if you can do trusses, it would be quite a bit stronger for extra mass support. Again, engineer?? Steve

Well to be honest I'm still struggling with that idea, partly cause of expense and trouble, partly because I dont know the procedure and how painful it is. For now I dont mind working in the theoretical world. I also think my string has gotten a little scattered. I'd like to bring it back into focus a little by restating some questions. 1) with the addition of the dry wall ceiling attached to the ceiling joists and sealed on the edges trapping all ventilation in attic area a valid outer leaf for the ceiling? Do I have to do this to make it a valid leaf? 2) Are my room designs adequate for soundproofing? 3) The engineering and sructual design put aside, Is my plan meeting the requirements I need to achaive good isolation? 4)With engineering and structural design considered, generally is my plan in the ballpark of something thjat will work? 5) any questions in the last string you can answer without feeling uncomfortable. 6) Any suggestions on if and how to do AC. Can be general like..Use exposed duct...Only a mini split will work...etc. These details can be figured out. I just need a general plan so I can see the outcome oon my room sizes. 7) are there any ways to simplify my plan? With the complexity of the project do you think some "products" could acheive adequate isolation, and or end up costing the same or not much more?Ex..quite rock,kenetics, vynil sound matt or anything else There are some products that intrigue me... 8) the kenetics floating floor system http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/flm.html would that be adequate isolation yet simpler build? 9) the spacepak HVAC system http://www.spacepak.com/ as a space solution Well that all I got now. Probably missed a ton of topics Ill remeber later. Any help appreciated, answer what you can, I totally understand.I just need to know if my ideas are right so I can begin to figure out how I will deal with the fine details. I wont build yet. Ive emailed john to have a phone consul as well. I dont know if I should just call or if he schedules calls.

Mike, need more time for all your Q's, gotta replace a (*&@*&^#$ toilet today or else - life can be the s**ts... Steve

mikeklooster wrote:

. . . 9) the spacepak HVAC system http://www.spacepak.com/ as a space solution . . .

Fascinating indeed. I'll be following this closely. (FYI, I just searched this entire forum for "SpacePak" and there are no results except this one.)

Ive had to work a bit the past few days, but the studios been constantly on my mind. In fact, I'd like to announce, thanx to all my new geek friends here, Ive entered studio puberty. A week ago after a long night reading studio crap, I had dreams about drywall. My first "dry" dream. I woke up scared confused and ashamed, got up looked at my studio for a while and went back to bed. Luckily we have "dry" dreams so there was no clean up involved. Anyway, I'm definitely still trying to answer the questions in my last post, but Ive also been trying to come at this at another angle. Got 2 questions. 1) If I use a package unit for AC, being that its outside, theres an adequate return, etc. Do I still need attic ventilation? If I could seal the roof so the roof is the outer layer(so its outer leaf), propery resupport the roof and at least in the rec room rc and as much mass(drywall) as I can. I have a feelin' this cant happen, but I had to ask. It seems like askin the righ question is the real trick here. 2) The way I have the attic space reasoned (probably retarted) I think with the outer door closed and the inner door open and my storage door, which is in the door lock, open I can have exposed attic( I know this needs more a drawing, so, for time sake, I added an older drawing. The yellow room is the storage but instead of sealing it, Im thinking it can be part of attic space just lower) . What Im thinkin is on a mini split when I'm workin but not rockin drums (or inbetween takes) I can get circulation ( attic vented).Will this work I guess my question is, how long can you go without new air(1-7 people)? Or a worthy closeable vent? If it was like every couple hours, and maybe some open time in morning, night, meals, and breaks. I could easily live with that. I'm alone or with limited people and not making tons of noise most of the time. The average song take is 4 min when tracking band, and there is always breaks through the day. I'm also interested in possibly Quite Rock or mass packed vinyl. If theres dangerous wieght problems, although expensive, could give me results without the trouble. I know these products are expensive. I cant get over the fact that with all this added construction if Im entering a more even playing field with cost. I mean, even if its more, I get more area and less headache. Could be worth it. thanx again, michael

Mike, as usual my s**t-box house has the last laugh; still working on the crapper, just got all the retarded excuses for construction out of the way so I could figure out how to put things back, takin' a quick break before the trek to town for parts (ever seen a toilet flange put in in such a way it required an air chisel and a cut-off wheel on an air die grinder to get the damn thing out? had to chisel off the nails idiot-stick used instead of bolts to hold the flange in place (filled with wax from the wax ring of course), then used the die grinder to cut the existing flange into sections to remove it; swear if I'm ever diagnosed with an inoperable tumor I'm gonna track this guy(who cobbled this place together) down and torture him to death slowly (with the wrong tools for the job) :twisted: OK, as to attics and venting; the ONLY way I know of you can get away with NOT venting an attic, is if you leave it open to living space and condition (head/cool) the entire space. If you SEAL it so it can work as a 2-leaf sound barrier (roof, air/insulation, inner ceiling) then it can't BREATHE - if it can't breathe, it rots. So, someway or another you will need to get that puppy VENTED if you want the roof to last more than maybe 10 years or so, sometimes it happens even quicker. What happens when habitable space is used, is that the expelled air/carbon dioxide from people's breaths contains moisture - so does the exterior air that comes into the room every time you open the door. Now, the place gets heated; either intentionally, or by human body heat. This warmer air tries to get to the cooler place on the other side of the wall or ceiling - air infiltration allows this to happen in most cases, so now you have moisture in your wall (or in with your ceiling insulation) - this MUST have a way to dry, or you're SCREWED. That's where VENTILATION comes in - the moving air carries the moisture away, the relative humidity in the attic goes back down, mold stops growing, and everybody (except the mold) is happy. For more depth on this, check out the Building Sciences links in the REFERENCE section - Speaking of which, it's "epiphany time" for ME - just found this, haven't even read it all yet but will do so ASAP - may be good news for you, check it out - http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... Design.pdf And a whole bunch more - http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... efault.htm Gotta run, ain't learning you're really dumb just a hoot??!? (me, that is) :oops: Study that stuff (me too, later) and we'll BOTH know more... Steve

OK steve, ive read the roofing material. Got a couple of questions. 1)I live in Stockton CA 40 miles south of Sacramento in the Big Valley. It appears like my area is covered by the cold region but were encompassed by the hot dry. We have hot dry summers, and our winters are mild yet it will freeze at night. Snow every other decade for 10 minutes. I dont know our average rainfall or temperature. Do you think Im in the cold area? 2)Figure 10 seems this is the best method for me. But I want to vault my ceilings and they still have a flat ceiling. The attic is conditioned and occupiable. The ceiling is not labeled, so is it necesary? I do have room above some of my rooms. Is that cool? 3) Im not totally hung up on no ventilation. In fact ive been doin some rearrangin and im starting to have more attick space and can vent alot as well as run duct. Over the record room Id love to bring it up as high as I can, though. Is this enough attic space as long as I open it up more above the other rooms?(im almost ready to post more drawings if you need to see them). Can I have attic on the sides and seal around one room(rec room) or just do fig 10 and run duct in "conditioned attic"? 4)Also ive been following keiths string and its got me thinkin. You first posted a wood floor by kenetics that you seemed impressed with. Although I understand cement kiks its (m)ass, and id love to rock whenever, I might not beable to sustain the cement and could live with solid 10 oclock drums if i could track quiter stuff at night and mix n edit. You described a cement slab as someone could tell therwere drums if they were rightr next to the wall. Can you give me a relative comparison of what it would be like with a wood floor so I can sense if I could live with it? tahnxthanxthanx