Yeah, but what do I really NEED?!

Ok, so I think I have a grasp on how I could build a studio with great isolation (I've read this board for months now). But, here's the thing. I'm not cutting drums. I don't do rock bands. I do mix, but my loudest is probably 90db for short times. I cut vocals and acoustic guitars and an amp now and then, and the area where I'm going to build this building is really quiet, so outside noise isn't a factor. And the other thing... I don't have a huge budget- $40K for EVERYTHING... A/C, electrical, construction, permits, drawings, and hopefully, a bathroom. Am I crazy to think I can pull this off? Oh, and I'd like to do some of the easy work, like painting, maybe flooring, etc., but I'm not going to be able to do the "construction" part. (I built a sandbox for my 3 year old, but that was a stretch.) I'm thinking a free standing building... (our new house is on 1.4 acres near Auburn, CA... big trees, hills, quiet, an hour from Lake Tahoe!) I'll need a control room, 12'x16'-ish, a tracking room, 7'x9'-ish, a little bathroom with a shower, and an entrance to connect them together. So, I think a building that's roughly 16'x22' ought to do it. I have a rough floor plan laid out, I'll post it if it'll help. I want the connection between the CR and the TR to be pretty quiet, so I guess that'll need to be a good staggered stud double wall, but beyond that, what's the minimum construction I can get away with to keep most of the noise inside the building? My current thinking is: 1. Cement Slab. I can build the floor right on this right? Maybe I should float the tracking room floor? Or is it actually cheaper to do cement pilings (is that what you call them?) and built a floor on a frame? 2. Outside walls. From outside: siding, OSB (?), 2x4 studs with insulation, RC (is that the right spot for it?), and 2 layers of 5/8 sheet rock glued together. 3. Between CR and TR. Double 5/8 rock, staggered studs on 2x6 or 2x8 with insulation, Double 5/8 rock. (No RC here because of the staggered studs right?) Double window. (it's been suggested to me elsewhere that a high qualitiy double paned vinyl window from Home Depot might be enough... but if that's the case, it seems like that wall construction is overkill.) 4. Ceilings. I'm a little clueless here... Double 5/8 on what? If I can pull off a sloping ceiling (either along the roofline, or under the "attic"), I will for reflection purposes. 5. I'd like to have a CPU closet that's fed by the A/C so I think that takes away the possibility of a Split A/C set up (not to mention feeding the tracking room and bathroom). So, I guess I'll have to go to HVAC. What do I do with the Blower unit that usually goes in the attic? I certainly don't want to be hearing that thing. So, where can I cut corners here and not shoot myself in the foot? Do I need to mess with the RC? How much extra isolation will it provide? Do I really need 2 layers of sheet rock? So, what do I NEED to not bother the neighbors who are 150 yards away? Thanks, stick

Stick, I'm by no means an expert but I am going through this right now and if I were you with total new construction; I would skip the RC and do staggered stud walls and 2X6 soles. RC can be a pain to "not short out". I think John has a ceiling diagram in the manual section that describes what to do or you could go RC on it. JMHO, Tapp

Yeah, that was sort of my thinking on the RC. Seems like a pain. Ok, I'll find that ceiling thing again...

With wood no doubt cheap where you are then going with the staggered 2x4s on a 2x6 plate is likely to be cheaper than a single 2x4 wall with RC. The nice thing that you have with all-new construction is the ability to make your outer sheathing nice and heavy and crackless. Most folks who are having to build into an existing space are having to either live with a three leaf system, have a weak outer leaf, or resheath both sides of the exterior wall! As to 2 layers of gypsum, sheetrock is the cheapest mass in the construction industry. As for HVAC depending on the relative cost of electricity vs other heating sources in Auburn I would consider a split system heat pump. They are simple to install and have minimal puncture of the wall. You will need to think of some other means of ventillation, though. As for your CPU closet, if it has enough ventillation it does not need its own AC, ditto for the bathroom. With a site as scenic as yours it is going to be tempting to put in big windows, but that will send up your costs when you need good STC windows. Maybe just some solatube skylights. http://www.solatube.com/res_products.php On the other hand, even if you don't put in windows now maybe frame in some headers so it would be easier to add windows later in order to sell your place later as having a 'guest house' rather than a studio.

Ok, staggered on 2x6 with a good solid outer leaf it is then. And double sheet rock. I'd love to be able to do a Split System for A/C, but wouldn't I have to have an inside unit for each room? At least the control room and the tracking room? (And opening the door to the tracking room to let in the cool air isn't an option... :shock: Interrupting a lead vocal tracking session because it's always too hot in the tracking room isn't good for business.) I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet on that one so I can have good air flow to all the rooms. And yeah, I'm going to HAVE to put in some windows. 8) With outside walls that thick, can I get away with a good vinyl window near the outside edge, and a pane of STC glass on the inside. And yeah, those Solatube things are cool... but even for my own sanity, I want to be able to see out to some degree. Thanks for the help. Resale is definately an issue, hence the bath with shower.

If I were to build that here in MI 40K would leave me money left over for landscaping. Best way I know how to tell you that it is feasbile. A slab is about 3K, the framing and sheathing is about 5k, the roofinf about 4k and then the rest is pure fun. (Shell is done. :) ) Oops sorry, plumbing is about 3500 complete to the main in the ground. :) Of course that is if you do the interior construction your self. You would end up with about 5k for lanscaping around the unit. Some nice japanese minatures, nice hosta, etc... :) even some patio blocks and maybe a small composite porch.

Oh, another question. Depending on where I end up locating this building on my site, there may be some cutting into the hill for a level spot. If I do that, is it a pain to use the hill as part of the back wall of the building? Almost like a half basement, with the ground right up to the wall. Seems like that wouldn't hurt isolation... that's a pretty big mass :lol: ! Is that more expensive from a drainage perspective? i.e. How do I keep the water runnoff from getting to my studio? Thanks...

giles117 wrote:

If I were to build that here in MI 40K would leave me money left over for landscaping. Best way I know how to tell you that it is feasbile. A slab is about 3K, the framing and sheathing is about 5k, the roofinf about 4k and then the rest is pure fun. (Shell is done. :) ) Oops sorry, plumbing is about 3500 complete to the main in the ground. :) Of course that is if you do the interior construction your self. You would end up with about 5k for lanscaping around the unit. Some nice japanese minatures, nice hosta, etc... :) even some patio blocks and maybe a small composite porch.

Ah see... yeah, but don't forget drawings, permits, A/C, possible extra septic system, flooring, etc. And maybe I can do part of the interior construction, but I've got gigs lined up I'll be working on (in the 3rd bedroom in the house... ugh... what's everyone's favorite set of mixing headphones?). And besides, I have used a circular saw a couple times, so I'm an expert right? And the beautiful thing about my lot, is that it's practically woods... I wouldn't do any landscaping, except waiting for the wild blackberries to grow up around the place!

Well where I would build it there is no need for a septic system. that is why I said here. and Feasible. :) Blueprints are not expensive around these here parts. A/C is factored into that. Of course I have done HVAC work back in the 90's (had a great guy train me.) Flooring is included in that as well. Permits in The city I'd build in takes way more time than money. $100/permit no big deal there. So ballpark....The legal stuff, inspecitons and prints, another 3k. and depending on how high class you want to go with the materials....... See you are building a seperated addition, not a house so less headache ;) Around thesen here parts. Not a typo say it how you see it. LOL

If you really intend to have this built, keep in mind that labor is going to be 'way more of your budget than materials, especially for precision construction - also, maybe one carpenter in 100,000 has any clue what works for sound isolation or acoustics. If you stay with either staggered studs or complete double framed walls, you might stand a chance of getting a "regular" carpenter to NOT screw it up. Your best bet would be if you can find a carpenter/contractor who is willing to join the forum and "get up to speed" on sound construction - the downside is that this will add to the cost also, unless the guy is interested enough to do the learning part on his own dime - not a guarantee, but remind him that more and more people are putting in home theaters and that a knowledge of the construction techniques could raise his income potential... AS to backing up against a hill, you would need to treat it just as a basement http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... ystems.pdf including proper drainage, etc - Your least expensive way would probably be to use poured concrete footings and pressure treated poles supporting a PT wood frame, then build similar to this only larger - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1589 Just some thoughts... Steve

Oh yeah based on Steve's comment, the prices I am quoting do include Labor. My wife is a Licensed General Contractor. So that is where I got my info from :). Back in her days of doing home remodels before I came along and yanked her out of that biz and 100% into her REAL ministry and dream, singing and preching :)

knightfly wrote:

If you really intend to have this built, keep in mind that labor is going to be 'way more of your budget than materials, especially for precision construction - also, maybe one carpenter in 100,000 has any clue what works for sound isolation or acoustics. If you stay with either staggered studs or complete double framed walls, you might stand a chance of getting a "regular" carpenter to NOT screw it up.

Yeah, I know, but I have a feeling it's going to be one of those "every little bit helps" sort of cost issues. And, my cousin lives in the area and might be willing to let me "help" with construction, and will probably let me tell him "how this sort of thing is done". And hopefully give me the family discount.

knightfly wrote:

Your least expensive way would probably be to use poured concrete footings and pressure treated poles supporting a PT wood frame, then build similar to this only larger - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1589

Yeah, that's a great thread... can't wait to see how it turns out. Do you mean not digging into the hill, but building the whole structure up on poles? Hmmm.... that's not a bad idea... Might be able to close in underneath the downhill side for some storage or a club house for the boys. Would building that beefy floor be cheaper than digging and pouring? What does "PT" stand for here? (It's "ProTools" for me... heh heh.) Thanks Steve.

giles117 wrote:

Oh yeah based on Steve's comment, the prices I am quoting do include Labor. My wife is a Licensed General Contractor. So that is where I got my info from :). Back in her days of doing home remodels before I came along and yanked her out of that biz and 100% into her REAL ministry and dream, singing and preching :)

Those numbers are definately encouraging... not have a clue what any of this costs, and yet having my budget pretty much in stone. Speaking of home remodels... we're doing that in the main house too. New kitchen, floors, move some walls, redo fireplace, etc. etc. etc. Might be back for some tips... :roll: Where are you in MI? I grew up in Midland, and did college at WMU in Kalamazoo. And my sister just moved to Traverse City from Howell.

Kzoo huh. Cool. I live in Ann Arbor and Our Studio is in Highland Park (detroit.) Howell is nice. We considered moving up that way before we settle on AA. Oh yeah and I forgot, because she is a contractor the prices she gets and gives to me are not end user prices, so hook up with the right guy :) Good old Midland, i purchased my 1st mobile Recording truck from a truck dealer up there in Midland.

Stick wrote:

knightfly wrote:

Your least expensive way would probably be to use poured concrete footings and pressure treated poles supporting a PT wood frame, then build similar to this only larger - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1589

Yeah, that's a great thread... can't wait to see how it turns out. Do you mean not digging into the hill, but building the whole structure up on poles? Hmmm.... that's not a bad idea... Might be able to close in underneath the downhill side for some storage or a club house for the boys. Would building that beefy floor be cheaper than digging and pouring? What does "PT" stand for here? (It's "ProTools" for me... heh heh.) Thanks Steve.

I am thinking that by PT he is meaning pressure treated, although he might be meaning post and timber, the term for construction using heavier wood than stud framing. Actually rather than the pressure treated poles (like telephone poles) I was thinking of concrete piers. Depending on your site it might be cheaper since you usually only need to bring in a backhoe with an auger to drill them versus a dozer and a backhoe and a truck to haul away the dirt. What you are balancing is the cost of an edge foundation vs the cost of the beams to span between the piers. Enclosing the space underneath may not be so wise because you then need to have some sort of grade-level foundation to support the wall and it may become a hiding place for critters. Frankly we don't know your site and the costs of construction in your area. This is where talking to your local architect or local contractor will tell you far more than we can. As for the windows, maybe what you want to do is to have a large window out from your foyer to the outside and then windows from the liive and control rooms to the foyer.

Innovations wrote:

Actually rather than the pressure treated poles (like telephone poles) I was thinking of concrete piers. Depending on your site it might be cheaper since you usually only need to bring in a backhoe with an auger to drill them versus a dozer and a backhoe and a truck to haul away the dirt. What you are balancing is the cost of an edge foundation vs the cost of the beams to span between the piers. Enclosing the space underneath may not be so wise because you then need to have some sort of grade-level foundation to support the wall and it may become a hiding place for critters. Frankly we don't know your site and the costs of construction in your area. This is where talking to your local architect or local contractor will tell you far more than we can. As for the windows, maybe what you want to do is to have a large window out from your foyer to the outside and then windows from the liive and control rooms to the foyer.

Plenty of room on the site... the house is on 1.4 acres. I could use the dirt elsewhere to fill in for more room for the kiddos to play. Point taken on construction costs... I'll work on that locally. Good idea for the window... which brings me to Studio doors with glass in them.... that can't be cheap. Thanks for the help.

Wouldn't necessarily put the glass in the door but rather a separate window. You'll have an easier time handling the door and the window as separate issues. Since costs are a consideration you might consider making the foyer be a soundlock. In oher words a room that is not completely isolated from A or B but which is part of the isolation of the two. Think of it as making a bit of the gap space between the studio and live rooms so wide that it becomes its own room. The downside is that you can't have anybody making noise in the foyer itself while you are working since it is incompletely isolated from either room.

Yeah, that was sort of my thinking... I'll try and get my little drawing out of the cheapo Mac CAD program I found so you can see what I'm thinking. Thanks for the help.

Yeah, in the NON-studio world PT normally means Pressure-Treated lumber - I meant to use concrete poured piers in contact with the ground, then use pressure treated floor frame - kind of like Diet Cookie's shed only larger, and since it's on a hill you would need to actually POUR your piers into holes for more stability. Any friend/relative/indentured servitude you can call into play will help costs - but don't let ANY "experienced" builder tell you how to construct without checking here first - the ones who actually have a clue about sound construction are nearly as rare as the dodo bird. I know, because I was one of them 20 years ago, and I also thought I knew... Steve

So, since I'm no architect, and have no idea how to actually draw real plans for such a glorious studio as is slowly being formed in my head... how would I go about finding an architect that can draw my studio for the permits for the area and whatnot, and for the contractor to build from? Obviously there are tons of details yet to be determined, many of which will depend on what an architect tells me is a good way to build (well, beyond the construction specs we're talking about here)... Or, maybe I'm going about this in the wrong order? Do I need to get this thing designed myself (with all of your help!), and then give my hack drawings to an architect to draw the real plans? And as always, I'm looking to keep costs under control. I'm a little overwhelmed by the prospect of all this... especially with work piling up... mixing in the 3rd bedroom in the house is going to suck until this thing is up.

Not sure if you're aware of this, it's about $200 but allows any PC program to run on mac - even music software. Saw one review of a heavy duty PC multitracking software run on a mac with this installed, no glitches - http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/v ... =virtualpc Then you could also run any PC based drawing software as well. Still, not cheap... I'm not sure if you mentioned what your main beef is with your present spare room - acoustics, or sound isolation? If there's any way to ease the problems there, it will take some of the pressure off time-wise and allow you to get this right the first time. If you do a "cut and fill", sometimes known as a "push-out", be aware that it takes about 4 years for a fill to settle enough by natural means before you can build on it - two ways around this; do a big enough one so that your entire construction sits on the "cut" part, so you're still on naturally compacted earth - or, pay big bux to have it machine compacted - not too practical for a smaller building and budget. This is another reason why poured piers and "Pro-Tools" framing :wink: make sense - you can use a large tractor-mounted auger if necessary, and drill down to solid ground and pour your main piers if the ground is too steep for a "cut only" building pad to be practical. Since your biggest isolation concern seems to be room to room instead of neighbors (be careful here though) you might be able to just float the tracking room (better outside isolation) and not the CR - you'd still need to frame each room different though, or you'll end up with a step up between rooms. I would be REALLY careful when engaging ANY professional who has NOT done serious sound studio design - very few seem to have a clue as to what works/doesn't work for isolation, and that can cost you a TON of money for nothing. If you can alleviate the time crunch with any changes to your existing situation, we can eventually help you work out your best plan of attack - if that's not possible, you might be hard-pressed to accomplish what you want in a short time. I always try to keep in mind what I call the "want" triangle - Good, Fast, Cheap pick any two, you can NEVER have all THREE... Steve

Hi Steve, Thanks for the helpful posts... Yeah, there are bigger and better drawing programs for Mac, it's more that I don't know what I should be drawing. I'll give it my best shot and post when I can. The temp solution of using the 3rd bedroom in the house is really temp. I won't have time to do much work in there anyway, with all the house renovating to oversee. Yeah, I was the thinking it would be a "cut" and "not fill" sort of thing, where we dig out the whole pad. I'll use the "fill" to increase the flat area around the house... it can settle all it needs to. As far as isolation, you're right. It's room to room, but at the same time I don't want it to bleed outside too much. A little is fine though, that's why I'm building a separate structure. And, there again, I've cut a few records with a tracking booth separated from my control room by a poorly mounted slider, so I don't think I'm going to have much trouble improving on that. I've had it suggested to me by the guy that designs the studios and foley rooms at Universal Pictures here in LA that putting the floors on a layer of good ol' styrofoam (yeah, closed cell and all) does a pretty good job of isolating vibration from room to room. So, I'll probably do that instead of getting into floating this and that. I agree, I don't want some architect out of the yellow pages that has no clue about studios, but at the same time, I still need to have a set of plans to give a contractor and the county for permits. So, I'm not sure how to handle that. I think over the next week or so, I'll do my best to get you some rough ideas to look at here, and see how far off I am. I too know that triangle... I'm hopefully on the Good and Cheap side... I'm prepared to live with a sucky set up for awhile (well, we're talking months... not a year) if when it's done, I can work there for many years and be happy. So, next step? Rough designs from me, so you have an idea where I'm headed. Thanks a ton... I'd be so much MORE lost without the great help. Brian

Ok, quick update. Looks like I'm headed back to the garage. HA! I think it's going to be cheaper and easier to pull off to build in the nice sized garage. It's still going to be a project, as the existing garage walls need to be revamped to remove some UGLY stone on the exterior, and probably shore up the walls, as they seem to be sagging with the weight of the stone. Anyway, that'll probably work out well, as I can make my outside leaf from the outside, as opposed to having to retrofit the inside. And, it brings in floating the floor... but I've got 9 feet to work with, so it ought to be feasable. The ceiling will probably be the sticking point... we'll see once I get to some real designs. More later... once I get a design in the works.

Stick wrote:

Looks like I'm headed back to the garage. HA!

Aw, mannnnn, I was looking forward to seeing that fresh new building out back. :roll: That's got to be quite an adjustment in your thinking. Did you have a little ceremony when you buried your previous plans? ;)

More later... once I get a design in the works.

Looking forward to it... Maybe you can post some pics of that garage in the meantime, since our (at least my) curiosity is piqued. :)

Yeah, a new building would be cool, but I think the extra expense and planning department hassle make it tough. And this way we can roll some of the exterior remodel of the house into the studio budget... cause as you'll see the exterior is UGLY. :shock: Over the years I've gotten to the point where plans are just plans. Changing them is not that big a deal... and besides, it all just seems like a big dream off in the distance somewhere. Though, moving out of LA to the hills and trees is a dream I wasn't expecting for awhile in my life. Gotta love it. Got the 'Rents in town for a few days, but so I'll try and get some photos of what we're dealing with here up next week.