Studio Design for a 28' by 22' garage

1)I live in Stockton CA 40 miles south of Sacramento in the Big Valley. It appears like my area is covered by the cold region but were encompassed by the hot dry. We have hot dry summers, and our winters are mild yet it will freeze at night. Snow every other decade for 10 minutes. I dont know our average rainfall or temperature. Do you think Im in the cold area? No way. Hot/dry, possibly mixed/dry. 2)Figure 10 seems this is the best method for me. But I want to vault my ceilings and they still have a flat ceiling. The attic is conditioned and occupiable. The ceiling is not labeled, so is it necesary? I do have room above some of my rooms. Is that cool? You have to decide whether you want best isolation or attic rooms; they are mutually exclusive. Adding a room will put you into "multi-leaf" land between studio space and outdoor space. This is true whether you have 4" or 4 FEET between leaves; it's just MORE true with the 4" thing. I need more time to print/read these roof docs before I can say for sure which is your best bet... 3) Im not totally hung up on no ventilation. In fact ive been doin some rearrangin and im starting to have more attick space and can vent alot as well as run duct. Over the record room Id love to bring it up as high as I can, though. Is this enough attic space as long as I open it up more above the other rooms?(im almost ready to post more drawings if you need to see them). Can I have attic on the sides and seal around one room(rec room) or just do fig 10 and run duct in "conditioned attic"? Can you rephrase this group of questions? I'm not sure why, but for some reasons your questions tend to leave me with more questions :? Also, try to keep your drawings down to the details of the particular question; I'm kinda frazzled with all the other crap life's been throwing at me, so simple is good :=(( 4)Also ive been following keiths string and its got me thinkin. You first posted a wood floor by kenetics that you seemed impressed with. Although I understand cement kiks its (m)ass, and id love to rock whenever, I might not beable to sustain the cement and could live with solid 10 oclock drums if i could track quiter stuff at night and mix n edit. You described a cement slab as someone could tell therwere drums if they were rightr next to the wall. Can you give me a relative comparison of what it would be like with a wood floor so I can sense if I could live with it? Set up your sound system inside, and have someone adjust the volume until you can barely hear it outside (crank the bass a bit during this test) - (cell phones help for communication during this) - check the INSIDE levels with a Sound Level Meter (if you don't yet have one, get the Radio shack one; $40-50 bucks and you'll use it a LOT if you mix the way I do) - Now that you know the inside SPL, turn it up by around 10 dB - go back outside and listen. This is a rough approximation of the difference you'll hear between wood over RIM's and concrete over RIM's, near as I can tell from their specs... Steve

No way. Hot/dry, possibly mixed/dry.

So acoording to this I could have this unvented ceiling?

You have to decide whether you want best isolation or attic rooms; they are mutually exclusive. Adding a room will put you into "multi-leaf" land between studio space and outdoor space. This is true whether you have 4" or 4 FEET between leaves; it's just MORE true with the 4" thing. I need more time to print/read these roof docs before I can say for sure which is your best bet...

1) would the unvented roof that becomes the outer leaf and a inner ceiling be two leafs? Is this good? 2)Is roof above vented attic(drywall) above ceilings of rooms the 3 leaf? Or is it two. 3) Are you just refering to the ceiling I mentioned, I asked cause it was in the photo, but unlabeled,( my thinking is that they expect that as norm in house construction. Ultimately I dont want it. Id like to make the roof sealed to create outer leaf and then a supported ceiling,(possibly hung on clips in big rec room) as inner leaf. These are the two ways I can see to do it. The unvented will save me materials and weight. But if done properly, is it healthy for the building. The vented attic space is the other alterrnative.

Can you rephrase this group of questions? I'm not sure why, but for some reasons your questions tend to leave me with more questions Also, try to keep your drawings down to the details of the particular question; I'm kinda frazzled with all the other crap life's been throwing at me, so simple is good :=((

Sorry, looking at them I dont get it either. I think I was getting at the fact that if I make a vented attic I would like to get the rec room ceiling to follow the vault. So above the rec room the attic will be drywall attched to the joists and flatten out at the collar ties creating a 18" attic space at peak and the whn vaulting down will be 6" between roof and drywall leading to vents on the sides and sealing every thing off below.On the other half, above the control room and adjoining iso booth the attic opens op to regular flat ceilings giving a traditional riangle attic space. (room for duct work). Then below this sealed attic line each room will support a ceiling just under creating a horizontal double wall?

Mike, I pm'd you a couple days ago; still waiting for a response. Meantime, we need to get your roof figured out for real - I need measurements on everything; size of rafters, collar ties, spacing between rafters, total span wall to wall, length of collar ties, distance from upper edge of collar ties to lower edge of the ridge board, type of roofing layer by layer, outside to inside. I need the same info for wall framing - sizes, spacing, outer cladding material, condition. Then, I need to know if you're willing to "sister" the rafters (double them) and add collar ties to ALL the rafters. Putting much weight on NON-trusses will require this. Finally got a few minutes (literally) to read through the roof info I posted for you, and I'm pretty sure you can build your roof as essentially a continuation of the walls, just need to figure out where vapor/air barriers go, if at all. Probably the best way for inner wallboard on the ceiling is to use RC so the two leaves would be your outer roof and the inner wallboard layers, both on the same framing (hence the RC requirement) Once you get all the above info in one place, we can set up a call and get this worked out... Steve

thanx steve i went out of town and failed to get online. I got your email late last nite(monday). Ill trak the info you need and email you so we can set this up.

ROOF INFO 1.size of rafters---2x6 2.collar ties---2x10 3.spacing between rafers---24" 4.total span wall to wall----22' along rafters,24' original length.28' with addition. 5.length of collar ties---bottom edge 10.5', top edge 6.5' 6.distance from upper edge of collar ties to lower edge of the ridge board---"If ridge board" is at apex of roof than its, 6.5-7" 7. type of roofing layer by layer, outside to inside. -----outside--new roofing,standatd tar stuff, im guessing here and ill check it was just done,that roof paper, old roof tiling, old roof paper, ply wood. Im not sure if they put ply wood for the new layer and i dont know if the old plywood is 1 or 2 layers. I will check WALLS INFO 1.size of studs---2x4 2.spacing between studs---16" 3.total span wall to wall----22' along rafters,24' original length.28' with addition. 4. wall height----8' 5. Outer layers----its stucco, not sure of the layers there is a vapor barior and in torn spots i see what looks like cement. SLAB I dont know thickness, wire mesh, rebarb(doubt it),but it has 4.5" edge with walls on those. Ill respond to the second half of your post next. tell me if there is anything else. ,

ok im gonna try to show my new plan and I hope I dont confuse. FACT: The extended 4' section is on a driveway slab, not the garage slab. I dont think the new outer wall is load bearing, hence I need the old garage door wall to stay.(right?) REASONING: I had origanally planned to float control room floor at top left of plans. I thought it would be cheapest.(about 12x14). I have since reasoned that floating the band room is better. Isolation from CR and outside. I do not think floating over different slabs is good, and the 7' nook would be even lower.so.....I decided to put rec room at the top of the plan, to eliminate"nook" and to be all on same slab. Then it occured to me, if this rec room is totally independant than the wall for CR could be hard fastened to the structure. Using RC or even ISOMAX clips to decouple CR drywall. Isolating only monitors seems ok with this. The CR would face down on the plan(right side). The front of the CR would be the "nook". After the 7' ceiling line in nook the ceiling could come up to lets say 9.5". Then build clouds to deal with the step in ceiling height. (fig 3 ) my garage empty. the blue line at bottom is old garage door wall.(fig2) Then I thought the back wall of CR( half way up the plan) could have a truss so my structure is supported half way across. (fig 1) The room to side is a small entry/iso for a couple of keyboards and a door lock. Far wall(from bottom) would be a truss as well. IF it would be better to extend back CR/truss wall across, that would be ok too, making side room as long as CR. But would rather do this split truss wall, so I have more room to build iso booths or larger rec room.(fig 1) I think this will help structure support, Simplify design, make ac installation easier, and still provide enough isolation. What do ya'll think?

Then, I need to know if you're willing to "sister" the rafters (double them)

Does this mean butted next to eachother or splitting gap between them?

and add collar ties to ALL the rafters

is there any way to add small trusses(even steel) where new collar ties would go?

inally got a few minutes (literally) to read through the roof info I posted for you, and I'm pretty sure you can build your roof as essentially a continuation of the walls, just need to figure out where vapor/air barriers go, if at all. Probably the best way for inner wallboard on the ceiling is to use RC so the two leaves would be your outer roof and the inner wallboard layers, both on the same framing (hence the RC requirement)

Is this unvented or vented? If I float rec room floor( the only ceiling that I need as high as possible) can I use this ceiling style or do I need to support ceiling on room? With "your ceiling" on top then the rec room ceiling? Hope I didint confuse much. thanx

Mike, for some reason your posts almost ALWAYS confuse me (not sure why) - I'm gonna try to get some time tomorrow between 'gators to re-read your stuff a couple of times, then see if I can clarify a few things. Beyond that, it's probably best if we do this real-time with drawings in front of both of us... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Mike, for some reason your posts almost ALWAYS confuse me (not sure why) . . .

After meeting him in person, I know why! :lol: (Heh heh - just kiddin' Mike!)

Started to do this as answer to a PM, decided better to be on the thread - More than slightly buried these days off; the new video thing now appears poised to inundate me with anywhere from 2 to 10 new projects, so I'll be spending the next few days completely gutting my back bedroom to make room for 2 computer systems, V-drums, mixer, 5.1 system, key stack, guitar setup, VO setup, etc - this will make it so I can be the limiting factor instead of the setup (hopefully) - After some thought (not much, I admit) I think you should take maximum advantage of the higher ceiling area for your LIVE room; putting the CR next to the )($%(*&# nook (and lowering the ceiling as necessary) will do less BAD things than having a low ceilinged live/recording space IMO. That would let you do a booth/machine room within connection distance of the CR. Something like this... Steve

Thats cool steve thanx. One problem though...It means I have to move my entry door. In a last choice option I would do it but id rather not. However, I've been thinking about keeping the CR there, and I have an idea about it id like to share. If you remember our phone conversation, the reason I put the CR there is because I thought I could couple the frames and make the back wall of the CR(lower right in your diagram) be some kind of support halfway throught the garage. You told me after sistering rafters and adding 2x8 collar ties that wall is unnecessary and pointless. SO....If I wanted to keep it there i thought of decoupling the frame, but coupling with RC or ISOMAX the front wall stepdown(verticle wall from 9.5' ceiling line to 7' "nook" beam),and the 7' ceiling under "nook" area. Also as an option the front wall(under "nook") could be decoupled as well. This allows the double wall frame to support the upper "nook" area for storage. But if its too inneffective than forget it. would this be worth doing?

I know how necessary storage is, but in this case I think I'd forget it; that area would be better used as a large, soft "trap" IMO - I'd just fill it up with bales of un-faced fiberglass, frame the front, slip some rockwool slabs between the studs, and cover it with cloth (or some of your tectum stuff if you want the room brighter but still bass trapped) I know it's a pain to move doors, but you're gonna HATE draggin' gear through the "seven portals of hell" - I know I would... Steve

knightfly wrote:

I know it's a pain to move doors, but you're gonna HATE draggin' gear through the "seven portals of hell" - I know I would...

Oh, man -- all that fresh stucco! :?

im a little confused by your answer. Not to not use as storage but, "frame the front" I dont understand. Are you saying to totally decouple walls and just not expect to put weight on it?

slip some rockwool slabs between the studs, and cover it with cloth (or some of your tectum stuff if you want the room brighter but still bass trapped)

Cover what with cloth? The room created on top of my nook or the control room?( i wouldnt think)

I know it's a pain to move doors, but you're gonna HATE draggin' gear through the "seven portals of hell" - I know I would... Steve

If you look at the plan its 3 doors now, not the six from before. Thanx for dealin steve PS I think im leaning towards the plan on the record design string ive started. Ive got some new ideas id like to share later as well. I think demanding the 9.5 is not worth the flexibility of the 8.5 ceiling height. Then maybe I can see what I can do with that shape after its been decided.[/code]

I'm suggesting that you do NOT use that upper space above the nook as storage, but instead make it into a good sized bass/broadband trap - to do that, you would frame the face of the room just like you were going to put paneling on it, then fill inside with rolls of unfaced fiberglass and stick 3 or 4" rockwool slabs between the studs (where they would go if insulating for heat), then cover with your "sound board", leaving about 6" next to ceilng and walls WITHOUT the sound board and just covering that with cloth. Where that nook is located, the upper part would be a really good place for a big trap that should smooth out the wierdnesses of that room quite a bit. Your idea of using resilient mounts instead of double frames will take less space, but it will also make the space you have LESS USABLE by giving several dB worse isolation at low end - your basic choice here is pretty much to "have the space" or to "use the space" - If you get a chance, you should take about a dozen pix of that (*&$*&% front area from all angles, so I can see what's where - shots like where the old walls meet new, shots of the door(s), the nook, the roof framing from inside looking UP at the roof, etc - OK, maybe TWO dozen pix - email 'em to me so they don't "clog up the board", and I'll post any that are pertinent to discussion. I'd really like to see if you can just "hog out" that damn nook and do somethin' SANE... Steve

Check this design out. I think this is better than the CR down there. Im still open for the bass trap idea if you think it would help the Rec Room. Questions 1)Can I run duct through the "nook" bass trap? 2)Help with exact dimensions of new CR 3)With this new plan there is one thing I dont quite get. We talked about putting the furnace above the "nook" on the left bottom corner of plan. If the rec room's ceiling is high and vaulted, can we get the duct over the Rec Room to get to the CR and ISO? If I needed to let duct run a bit I was also going to run it in "nook" area above old garage door.Is this necessary? 4)Since the CR and ISO will have lower roofs should I bring AC in at the top?Where would I put the frunace? Advantages are AC can be located behind garage and furnace is far from CR (if duct can go over rec room) Disadvantages are it would be harder to provide access to furnace if furnace needs to be up near the CR.

'm suggesting that you do NOT use that upper space above the nook as storage, but instead make it into a good sized bass/broadband trap - to do that, you would frame the face of the room just like you were going to put paneling on it, then fill inside with rolls of unfaced fiberglass and stick 3 or 4" rockwool slabs between the studs (where they would go if insulating for heat), then cover with your "sound board", leaving about 6" next to ceilng and walls WITHOUT the sound board and just covering that with cloth.

I like that

Your idea of using resilient mounts instead of double frames will take less space, but it will also make the space you have LESS USABLE by giving several dB worse isolation at low end - your basic choice here is pretty much to "have the space" or to "use the space" -

Does that change if there is a huge bass trap behimd it? You do realize this bass trap is above the speakers, right? Will this bass trap help Rec Room lie it would the CR(new plan)?

If you get a chance, you should take about a dozen pix of that

Will do..

I'd really like to see if you can just "hog out" that damn nook and do somethin' SANE... Steve

"hog Out' means get rid of" old garage door wall"?If that is easy and safe id love to thanx mike

Mike, you really need to post pix (please make them between 750-800 pixels wide so I can see more detail) of every corner, high and low, including roof framing, wall framing, foundation, corners, close and far, from multiple angles - I need enough visual input to tell whether that tacked on front )(*&$% can either support, or be MADE to support, it's own weight without that old wall framing. Need pix of the roof framing, in and out of the "nook" area, let's see if we can make this a doable project in this millenia... Steve

. . . whether that tacked on front )(*&$% can either support, or be MADE to support, it's own weight without that old wall framing . . .

Having seen it up close and personal-like myself, I'm going to put my chips on not... :cry: (Sorry...)

Yeah, but Keith you obviously don't know just how MUCH that thing pisses me off... :evil: Even as we speak, I'm preparing a mural-sized version of my infamous "evil eye" treatment; as much as it freaked YOU out just think what a BIG version will do to that poor old garage (sounds of maniacal laughter cued in now)...

I'm at a loss to know how the heck you're going to get access to these storage areas once you're built out. Perhaps you're making a cocoon-type time capsule, hiding your stored items between your leaves to be discovered 40 years from now. ;) Hey, you going to put Jimmy Hoffa in there? Good plan! 8)

Back in March, I wrote:

I'm at a loss to know how the heck you're going to get access to these storage areas once you're built out. Perhaps you're making a cocoon-type time capsule, hiding your stored items between your leaves to be discovered 40 years from now. ;) Hey, you going to put Jimmy Hoffa in there? Good plan! 8)

Not that I'm saying "I told you so," Mike -- but, uh, well, I told you so... ;)

Mike, got your pix but been buried; only got a chance to check one of them, but looks like they will help, thanks... Steve

Have you seen my pics yet steve? No pressure just checkin.

Yeah, only thing I'm not sure of (hard to know what's what without labels) is - does the NEW front wall have the same framing (minus the headers, of course) as the OLD front wall, and can you send a few more pix of the front foundation as well as the NEW front roof peak from inside? Add to that an explanation of which of the pix are current - I thought the space was pretty much gutted, but am seeing what looks like more than one front wall surface in the upper area??!? Steve

Hey Everyone, Its been a minute since I posted. I had to work some, and I needed a break. I have been watching the progress, and Im ready to review my plans and check my first steps. REVIEW: I have a 24'L x 22'W separate garage behind my house(about 20' away from the house). The pitch of the garage roof runs 90 degrees perpindicular to the house roof. (A front to back diagram of property:front being bottom and back being top of picture). I have added a patio cover continuing the garage roof pitch until attaching to house roof. From an arial photo my house would look like a "L". Under the patio cover, the garage has been extended 4', and a new 3' entry door added. This is my basic overall diagram. And one with more comments... And a side view... And a back view.... Design Obsticles: Im trying to have 3 layers of drywall on inner leaf. And the record room ceiling will be hung of rafters isolating with ISOMAX clips or equivelant. Therefore I have to give my garage additional support. By way of a phone consultation with Steve and his span calculations, he suggested I sister every rafter with a 2x8 rafter and adding 2x8 collar ties on every new rafter.According to his calcs thats enough support for 4 layers but we decided 3 is safe. Theory: The first principle in my design is a "cathedral" or "unvented attic". To do this I must seal the outer shell completely. This allows me to use the outer structure as my outer leaf( 2 leaf MAM rule). The benefits to this are... A) simpler construction B) Higher ceilings and less lost real estate than a 2 leaf within the garage structure. Also if I create vented attic space by drywalling under rafters, and flattening under collar ties, then my airspace decreases from when the mass (outer leaf) was ontop of the rafters. I learned of this technique from steve, he gave me this link http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... Design.pdf and more... http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... efault.htm This technique if done properly should have adequate humidity and heat performance. I live in Stockton Ca. in the San Juaquin Valley of California. The map for zoning is a little confusing but Stave said he thinks I qualify for the hot Zone(good for unvented). emperatures in winter are 40-60 average day temp getting a little under 32 at ight sometimes. Medium rain, no snow. Summers are relatively dry and hot(up to 110) with cooler nights(about 60 to 70). I need to verify this before deciding my fate. Method: 1)Seal any holes in outer structure A) Im filling in an old door( on the back of garage) A window on left side of diagram, two upper vents on back wall, lower side wall vents, and upper side vents found where the rafters meet the wall top. There is a crevice between every joist filled with a 2x4 on side, and three crevices are filled with vent screens. B) The upper side vents and 2x4 filled crevices should all be refilled with new 2x4s. If the top of the 2x4 needs to be cut to match pitch of roof for tight fit then do so. Seal with cock. C) Since the wall is (out to in) Stucco, cement board, vapor seal, and then studs. I should 1)Repair any damaged vapor seal. 2) Attach 5/8" drywall in between studs to outer wall(vapor seal). Cock on out side of drywall (touching vapor seal). Leaving 1/8 to 1/4" gap between edge of drywall and stud for cock. 3) Lock in drywall by screwing wood edges into stud sideways pinching drywall flat on outer wall. Cocking all around 4) If any uneven surfaces, mud to smooth before attaching drywall. 5)Check and remove any nails coming through plywood in ceiling.(havent seen any yet). 6) Attach drywall between rafters just like walls 7) Be careful to seal where ceiling , upper side vent 2x4s and wall drywall meet. Questions: 1) its Ok to attach drywall to ceiling plywood? It wont rot? Use wood instead?(steve said drywall is cheaper and just as good) 2) When attaching drywall do I cock contact side?(I think i remember YES)Glue? Acoustic Glue?(probably to costly for performance) 3) how flat does the drywall have to lay to be part of outer leaf? When or how bad does it have to be to warrant mudding first? 4) Should I use dehumidifiers or any thermostat( or the one that reads humidity) to keep tabs on my structure? Conclusions: I need to make sure the support figures are good, and the "unvented" construction is a sound idea before starting. But if this is feasable this plan will be the best for me. Im worried that this part must be perfect yet since its the first step, once complete can not be fixed. Here is a picture of the total unvented area called the outer leaf... Also this method forces me to resolve any AC concerns now before contiuing past this stage. I dont fully understand HVAC ,so this leads me to more questions.... 1)mini splits dont provide fresh air(otherwise perfect), An outside package unit requires two big holes be cut in outer leaf(return and send) , and a traditional split with the furnace inside can be noisy(not sure how noisy). According to "unvented" construction principles the attic space should be conditioned space. The furnace should be in an isolated unvented room as well.( Ive seen other opinions as well, but according to the principle science this is the technique) My question is...If I have an unvented structure and three air tight rooms within this, How is my building gonna get fresh air? Even with all rooms having a return, My total sq footage is 616 sq ft. If I have a busy day with 5-6 people will I be subject to opening the doors at intervals anyway? If so then why not save the headache and use minisplits(quiet,simple, and easy) while making sure I vent the place with open doors periodically? Ive heard of a fresh air intake on a HVAC but dont fully understand this. Ive also been paying close attention to AC sound levels and have determined I will probably always have to shut off while tracking, so if I must vent for oxygen anyways a mini split is just as good. Another idea keeps hitting me\....what if I use the house HVAC and build some outdoor ducts across my patio cover into my garage. Then I could share air return with the whole house, as well as even if I need to purchase a bigger unit, I could sell this fairly new one to get cash back and since it should be cheaper, I could afford really good duct work(diffusers, thermostat controlled dampners, ect. I have a feeling this last idea sucks... I still have one more idea...ready... what if this "unvented ceiling"continued until it got to the old garage door wall. Then going down from top to 7' above floor. "Beef up between verticle upper studs of old garage door wall. Then at 7' above ground continue drywall across joists nailed between the 4x12 header and the new extended wall.....then on down to the ground....need a picture... to be cont. ps sorry about the repeated pics I dont know how to get rid of them.

Continued... This creates a place that could be "unvented" if neccessary or vented if that would work better, Or even vented only for fresh air for AC(not sure if that is the same as venting attic). The thing I like about this is no matter the results this design flexes. Mainly it creates a section to have noisy AC equipment that if must be breached(vented) will not be part of my outer leaf of soundproofing. It ends up creating a shape like this... Or to give more room and esier acces ...this version with a door near the entrance Ill stop there, how am I doin? Anything forgotten , misstated or just plain retarded. Any Ideas? ThanxThanx Thanx Mike Klooster