FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

Keith: In a quick reading of the code above, it seems that fiberglass OR mineral wool can be used?... or am I missing something? Have you decided upon mineral wool because it would be easier to 'fix' in place in the areas where your fire blocks are needed? That code above seems very similar to that Canadian code that had been posted by someone a while back... K

You are correct -- either can be used. However, I decided over a year ago that I'd be using mineral wool because I'm convinced of its superiority in terms of both sound attenuation as well as fire retardation. Here's an excellent read from our Canadian friends...

National Research Council's Institute for Research in Construction (IRC) Sound Isolation and Fire Resistance of Assemblies with Fire Stops Construction Technology Update No. 16, July 1998 by T.R.T. Nightingale and M.A. Sultan

Today during my lunch hour I hope to have some time to estimate the amount of insulation I'll need so I can order it. --Keith :mrgreen:

I ordered 1,152 square feet (18 bags) of 3" x 24" x 48" Thermafiber SAFB from AMS. It will be delivered to my house sometime on Friday. 1,152 square feet @ 55¢ per square foot = $633.60 7.75% sales tax = $49.10 Delivery charge = $25.00 Fuel surcharge = $8.28 --------------------------------- Total: $715.98 Woo-hoo -- over $1,000 spent on materials over three days! :shock: :lol: My plan is install two layers of this stuff inside my inner leaf framing. The outer leaf will not have any insulation on it, except around the "panhandle" area between the doors. I will need to do something to keep the insulation pressed against the inner leaf wall sheathing. I think I'll swing by Home Depot to see what kinds of options I have for cheap little metal things I can attach to the sides of the studs and then feed a string or a wire through a hole in it, about 1 1/2" behind the back side of the stud. (It's 6" of insulation, which I want to be slightly compressed against the sheathing when it goes up.) --Keith :mrgreen:

in a garage we built last summer we used insulation hanger wire to hold up the insulation in the garage because there was a room above. they are held in place by friction. you just push between the studs. inexpensive and VERY easy to install.

Doni!!! 8) Welcome back, man! Long time no see Go back a couple of pages and critique my framing skills!! :twisted: Where were you when I needed your help swinging that hammer, anyway? :evil: ;) And what exactly is "insulation hanger wire" anyway? :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

Yeah no kidding........ and ummm lets see on the other side of the country lmao. It's single staves of wire that are slightly larger than studs 16 o.c. I'll ask the guy I subcontract from ( work for ) and ask the proper term for the product. But it just slides right inbetween the studs held in place by friction. And holds up or in the insulation from coming out without the use of staples or them screw eyelets that you run string through to hold the insulation in place and I'm sure they would be much cheaper that the eyelets for sure. P.S. I looked over you work and from what I can tell for someone who isn't in the trades WELL DONE MY FRIEND WELL DONE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

Thanks, Doni! 8) I'm very glad to have your endorsement! :D Meanwhile... Did someone order some insulation?? There you have it: 19 bags (18 delivered today, one that I brought home earlier this week) of 3" x 24" x 48" Thermafiber Sound Attenuation Fire Blankets (SAFB). And yes, both cars still fit in the garage! :twisted: Anyone have garage envy? :P --Keith :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

And what exactly is "insulation hanger wire" anyway?

Keith, He's talking about 13 Guage Tension Wire - although I like strapping on the back of open walls - this product also works. I generally see it used in basement ceiling applicatiojns - to keep the insulation from sagging - but have also seen it used in double wall construction. Here's a link: http://www.idimn.com/products/ins_acc/supp_net.html the product is located at the bottom of the page. Rod

Rod, just wondering what type of strapping you recommend, vinyl or steel. I have both and wanted to know if one was better than the other etc. etc... when it involves isolation and acoustic applications.

Thanks much, Rod! 8) I visited the permit counter today to verify that my next inspection will consist of:

• Framing
• Rough Electrical
• Plumbing*
• Mechanical

*Unless you count condensate drain lines for the mini split air conditioner and the heat recovery ventilator, there is no "plumbing" to be inspected in my case. "Mechanical" means that the air conditioner and ventilator need to be installed, with all ducting and whatnot hooked up -- not necessarily operable though, because that would require power, and that final connection won't happen until electrical is signed off. Inspection of the insulation will be pretty snappy and will take place after the above inspection. Looks like I jumped the gun on buying the insulation a bit... :roll: Don't expect any inspections anytime soon! :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

cyeazel wrote:

Rod, just wondering what type of strapping you recommend, vinyl or steel. I have both and wanted to know if one was better than the other etc. etc... when it involves isolation and acoustic applications.

I like the nylon - first off it doesn't rust........ Next it can't ring the way a steel strap might...... Rod

Next it can't ring the way a steel strap might......

Just curious Rod. Do you mean the "steel strap" could resonate like a guitar string? Would that transmit to the studs/drywall back into the room or to the exterior leaf and propogate to the outside world?:? And if so, as far as the interior soundfield is concerned, wouldn't the direct sound that excites it be at the same frequency, but higher amplitude? If so, how would this be detremental to live sound in the room, since this isn't a recording room? I mean, it would seem that the amplitude of a resonant sound in the airgap would be so low that it couldn't possibly affect a sound in the room at the same frequency could it? Like I said, just curious. Thanks. fitZ

Next it can't ring the way a steel strap might......

Just curious Rod. Do you mean the "steel strap" could resonate like a guitar string? Would that transmit to the studs/drywall back into the room or to the exterior leaf and propogate to the outside world?:? And if so, as far as the interior soundfield is concerned, wouldn't the direct sound that excites it be at the same frequency, but higher amplitude? If so, how would this be detremental to live sound in the room, since this isn't a recording room? I mean, it would seem that the amplitude of a resonant sound in the airgap would be so low that it couldn't possibly affect a sound in the room at the same frequency could it? Like I said, just curious. BTW, wouldn't the insulation "dampen" any vibrations in the first place? Oh, and one other thing. Guitars also use "nylon" strings.:wink: Thanks. fitZ

cadesignr wrote:

Just curious Rod. Do you mean the "steel strap" could resonate like a guitar string? Would that transmit to the studs/drywall back into the room or to the exterior leaf and propogate to the outside world?:? And if so, as far as the interior soundfield is concerned, wouldn't the direct sound that excites it be at the same frequency, but higher amplitude? If so, how would this be detremental to live sound in the room, since this isn't a recording room? I mean, it would seem that the amplitude of a resonant sound in the airgap would be so low that it couldn't possibly affect a sound in the room at the same frequency could it? Like I said, just curious.

FitZ, I don't know for a fact that anything would occur....... BUT - I try to think through all of the possibilities as I set up my designs.... and I know that if I take a piece of steel strapping and attach it to a pair of (or series of) studs - that it will sing like a guitar string if plucked. Now, that having been said, your concern is all about noise somehow resonating back into the room - and your assumption is that the sound within the space would be louder than the resonance of the band - and the band would add little or no nise to the sound in the room. Me? I look at it in the opposite direction. I assume the possibility that it could be excited from a source coming from outside of the room - it would be a fairly low frequency - possibly excited by traffic noise (I can experiment if you'd like to find out exactly what it is- but picture the size of the member (in relation to the total thickness of a bass guitar string) and the length of the string to just get an idea of the frequency) and if excited from outside - it would add to the total amplitude of sound entering the room - and seeing as it is directly coupled to the room side of the framing - it could be a concern. So - with all of that in mind - I decide to never take the chance to see if my fears can come true......... Sincerely, Rod

but picture the size of the member (in relation to the total thickness of a bass guitar string) and the length of the string to just get an idea of the frequency) and if excited from outside - it would add to the total amplitude of sound entering the room - and seeing as it is directly coupled to the room side of the framing - it could be a concern.

You may be right. However, length has no bearing on frequency unless tension is added, where the tighter the tension, the higher the frequency. Pluck any string with little tension and you get very low frequency, and very little amplitude. The more tension you add, the higher the frequency and amplitude. I just seems to me that with very little tension, resonance would be nil. But....why take a chance, huh?:wink: Ok, thanks Rod. Like I said, I was just curious. YOU are the expert, and this is why I asked YOU. :lol: fitZ

I pulled some Romex wire yesterday for a few hours. Kind of fun. 8) Except I had a strange feeling that I was doing something wrong on one of my three-way circuits -- a "two lights between the switches" run. After consulting some wiring diagrams on the 'Net, my concern was valid: I can't use a single 3-conductor wire to go from Switch A (where power source is) to Light A to Light B to Switch B. I need to go from Switch A to Light A to Switch B, and then run a simple 2-conductor wire from Light A to Light B. :roll: It's a good thing I figured this out this morning, because fixing this will be pretty easy. If I had made this mistake on my 12-guage switched outlet run, I'd have a much bigger problem to solve... And I shudder to think what I'd be dealing with if I had not followed my instincts to double-check this stuff and had already drywalled! :roll: Moral of the story: 3-way circuits can be quite tricky! Always make sure you can do what you need to do with the wiring that you run. By the way... In case you're wondering why I even care about 3-way circuits in such a small room -- I'd really like to be able to control all the lighting from the doorway and the drum kit. 8) Oh, and before anyone asks... No, I'm not doing star grounding or any of that. --Keith :mrgreen:

Yesteray I spent about a couple of hours fixing my 3-way circuit goof and running some more wire, which I then realized terminates to the wrong stud. :evil: I quit for the day, disappointed with the lack of progress and with myself for making dumb mistakes that I shouldn't be making. :roll: Ah well... After several kick-butt weekends of "can't wait to post the pics" progress, this weekend was a dud. :( In truth, there are some days that I'm chompin' at the bit to get out there and work, and others.......... I just want to watch T.V. :oops: :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

Hang in there, Sharward. You're doing amazing work. Slow and Steady, and all that.... And before too long, you'll be playing your drums to relax.... 8)

Thanks man... :-) I needed that. Sometimes I lack motiviation, but I drag my butt out in that garage and start to put things together. After a little while I get a spring in my step and it's tough to stop at the end of the night. This weekend was not like that. :lol: No spring. In fact, it was more like there was Green Glue all over the soles of my shoes! :P (Think: gooey chewing gum!) I really wish I could take a week off from work to focus on it... Unfortunately, our being so short-staffed right now makes it impossible for me to take even one non-weekend day off for the foreseeable future. :x --Keith :mrgreen:

Oh, and before anyone asks... No, I'm not doing star grounding or any of that.

How many recepticles are you putting in? It wouldn't hurt to run home runs for each one or pair of recepticles.

Yeah I agree with Aaronw, it won't be that much extra work to just home run a few. I just reviewed your electrical plan from 3-21-05, I've had it on my computer for a while. Is your plan still 2 breakers/circuits for various lights and two breakers for 2- 20 amp circuits of receptacles, with a total of 11 recepticles? And you only have 4 spare breaker spots on panel? Marc

Yes, that's pretty much still the plan, although I do intend to add a recepticle (a pair of them) on the outer leaf next to the door for a future workbench. I was planning to have junction boxes for each breaker circuit in the area between the doors. By "home run," I suppose I could do it from there, eh? I do think I'll have extra wire. I bought 250 foot rolls even if I needed only 150 feet, since 250 is cheaper than three 50s. You guys are going to tell me I'm nuts to run dimmers on my lights, huh? :lol: Remember: NOT a recording studio... :roll: I appreciate the ideas, because for sure, if not now, never. --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, over on Aaron W's thread you wrote:

I realize it's moot... But I think 1 1/8" plywood would be bad because it would resonate at a lower, worse frequency than two layers of 3/4" stuff. (See this recent post at StudioTips

I thought it was better to have a lower resonate frequency.?.?.

Low enough to be inaudible would be great... Unfortunately, that's not the case. I think it lowers it into the worst part of the spectrum... :roll:

Oh, my fault. I understand now. I didn't read your post carefully enough. Thanks.