FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

How many holes/conduit runs do you have from attic to panel? You could use any where there is enough space. You might not be limited to the aux conduit you're talking about. If there is a route with no conduit you could use fish or just shove the wire on through. I've been able to succussfully get 3 new circuit runs from my panel (with no raceway and not using the fish) by starting at the panel and shoving the wire up and through. Another undesirable option could be to temporarily remove the panel from wall and drill new holes up to the attic. This would require that you have a main shut off, most likely at the meter, otherwise power company would have to do a temp disconnect. Also would require the balls (labeling everything) to mess with every wire in your house. Looking foward to your pics. MArc

All possibilities, but the truth is, the effort-to-giveacrap factor is just too high. ;-) I'm also celebrating not having to go into the attic for this. :lol: Remember, I've got ten foot ceilings, Thanks for watching my back, Marc. :-) --Keith :mrgreen:

i don't understand why you think pix of the wiring is uninteresting to us. we've all seen framing as well, but you post those... pix or i don't believe that you've done anything at all for the last couple months!!! i only refrained from using caps because i don't have a shift key.

That's because I was actually proud of the framing. ;-) The wiring? Less pride in that for some reason... :roll: Wow, John -- you're mean to me today... :? Kinda makes me just want to say, "Phooey -- I'll just let y'all know when it's done." :x --Keith :mrgreen:

Hey, mod-man - "being a mod means never having to say phooey"... :mrgreen: Now, as punishment, get out there and put your tongue across some bare wires... JUST KIDDING! Aaron's right - if HE isn't allowed to feel picked on, neither can WE - hang in there Keithers, you've done a hell of a job so far... Steve Oh, and welcome to "mod-ville" sure can use the help (not that it's much different than before, just more official) :wink:

i'm sorry

Forgiven. 8)

Aloha. Hey Keith, Happy New Year to you and yours! So, um...where are those pics? :P Aloha 8)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. :lol: Yesterday I worked about 12 hours, so there was just no time at all... :roll: In other news... My longtime audience ;-) will recall flood concerns we have in my neighborhood. Our part of the city is protected by levees that are now known to have significant problems, particularly a vulnerability called "underseepage." New Orleans is/was the #1 flood-risk metropolitan area in the USA. We're literally the runner-up in that contest. Were there a levee breach within a few miles of our house, our entire house, roof and all, would be completely submerged. For months there has been speculation on whether or not the FEMA maps would be updated to reflect the reality of our risk exposure here. Well, our clueless mayor, whose appearances on the backs of milk cartons exceeds those in which she's actually doing something meaningful for her constituents, received notification last week that the maps are indeed being redrawn, officially downgrading us from 135-year flood protection to that of <100-year. (The numbers mean there is a 1/x chance of a devastating flood each year.) We don't know what the number is. The worst -speculative number we've heard is 30. This morning's Sacramento Bee reports the remapping soon to occur, which has the effect of making flood insurance mandatory for homeowners of federally-backed mortgages. I have actually been hoping for this of late, because I think good things will come from this. First, my neighbors will have to get off their asses to buy flood insurance. Roughly only 1 in 4 currently have any. I often think about such a horrific event and then contemplate what the neighborhood would be like with 2 out of 3 flood ruined houses abandoned and foreclosed upon without homeowners caring about rebuilding them. Plus, the insurance is only $250,000, and I know that reconstruction costs for our home is over $300,000, and that's in a "normal" market, not the over-inflated opportunistic widespread disaster market. (more..)

Second, I feel like things are finally going to start to come together to give us the flood protection WE THOUGHT WE HAD WHEN WE MOVED HERE. I need to stress that. Often people judge us, thinking we're cavalier about flood risks, when in fact, we weren't: we believed the community leaders and engineering reports that showed us to be largely protected. We weren't naive, but we were misled, and some might even say we've been lied to. If all goes well, we'll soon be voting ourselves a multi-hundred-million-dollar property tax increase to pay for the protection we all desperately need. Believe me, I'm no fan of tax increases. But in this case, I'll support anything to avert Katrina II. --Keith :mrgreen:

hey hey Kieth, Yeah being flooded out would definately suck ass glad to hear your makin progress sorry for my absence. But it's been nuthin but work work work here as well. Waiting to find out if imma have the chance to work in cali ( San Diego Area ) come this march. keep ya fingers crossed

Believe me -- there are times while I'm working on my build that I think, "This could all go under water..." :evil: :roll: Good luck with the San Diego opportunity, Doni! That's my old stomping grounds, and I expect I'll be down there a couple of times this year visiting pals, possibly around the time frame you're hoping to be there. If that comes together for you, send me a private message with your cell phone number -- if our schedules intersect, I'd definitely enjoy breaking some bread with you. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Wow... :shock: ...More news in the paper about the Natomas flood risk situation. Yikes... Our flood insurance rates are probably going to go from an optional $317 per year to a mandatory almost four times that. :x Not that it's unfair, just that it's a lot of money :roll: and that is in addition to the property assessment we may be voting ourselves in March. I'm just now getting worried that these two extra expenses, in addition to rising rates for newer homeowners with unconventional adjustable mortgages, may contribute to a financial disaster on the part of a lot of people living in my area. Such a pronounced and localized hit would be devastating to property values here, let alone the stigma that our community is going to have. Believe me: if we had known the risks -- had our public officials not been so tight-lipped about our exposure -- we would not have bought here. I blame our mayor and city councilperson for that. (It was recently proven that the feds warned them about our levees months before we bought this house, yet they failed their moral obligations by refusing to pass the information on to the constituents they serve. You have no idea how much I truly despise these people. :evil: ) --Keith :mrgreen:

Back to the drawing board on my electric runs... :( I fell into the same trap that I'm always quick to warn others about: resist the urge to do do do and make sure to plan plan plan. Plans sometimes have to change. When they do, you have to make sure that you have a solid plan before executing the change. I did not do this. Fortunately, I caught myself before getting too far along in the "doing" before doing too much damage. On the previous page, you saw that I had to change my approach to running my electric lines between the service panel and the the room itself, due to an inadequately sized raceway that would not accommodate my four Romex cables. I had quickly come up with an alternate plan of running 3/4" conduit on the surface of my garage walls via a two-gang recessed box that is connected to the service panel via another 3/4" raceway that would be empty for that purpose. Unfortunately, after tinkering with the conduit fittings I had purchased, I reached a conclusion that I would not be able to fit them all through, particularly the angle pieces I had acquired. I also came across this "box fill calculations" page and this "Q&A" page that lead me to learn that the recessed box isn't large enough to accommodate the number of connections I need to make. The bad news is that I haven't actually "accomplished" anything today... But the good news is that my gut feeling that I might be doing something wrong paid off in that I didn't proceed down a path that was sure to earn me a failure on the rough electrical inspection that I am hoping to obtain before the middle of this month. I am now thinking that the best course of action is to remove some drywall from the garage wall behind and above the electric service panel to expose the top of the panel and the bottom of the top plates of the wall, so that I can feed the cables into the attic much the same way as they would have been had the work been done when the house was built. This is a bit messier than I had planned for initially, but there are advantages to this approach:

• After all the work is done, there won't be any exposed conduit in the garage.
• I won't have any firewall penetrations to worry about having to fortify.
• I'll save money in the long run. (Not a lot, but hey...)

I'm kind of glad I didn't post pictures of what I had been planning, as I'm somewhat embarrassed about this... :roll: ...yet it probably would have been educational in the "what not to do" sense. I think I'll cut those holes tomorrow and then get cracking on this new plan that I know will work. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to take apart my pretty little incomplete conduit run, so that I can take everything back to Home Depot tomorrow... Except for that one 10 foot long 3/4" conduit that I already cut. Twice. --Keith :mrgreen:

Just a quick update. Extremely busy at work this week. Painfully so... :evil: This weekend I discovered, purchased, and successfully installed this AWESOME new product!!! :twisted: [url=http://www.wernerladder.com/televator/] The Werner Televator™ (Click to See Really Cool Product and Installation Videos!)[/url] YIPPEE!!! :D I can finally get into my attic without fear of death! 8) (Granted, there's always the risk of my doing a Marc job through the ceiling -- but that's beside the point! ;-)) The 10 foot model is at Lowe's (not yet on their Web site though... :x) for about $240 and worth every last penny. It's extremely well made and rated at 250 pounds!! :D I need to extend the OSB platform that's already up there so that I can take the ladder up and then climb off to the right. Once that's done, I should be able to go up into and down out of the attic with ease. In case you're wondering... Typical fold-out attic ladders require quite a bit of clearance. My laundry room (where my access is) is not large enough to accommodate that kind of ladder/stair thing. They're also a bitch to install. Many people install them into their (attached) garages, cutting a large hole in the ceiling to accommodate it. However (you guessed it), that is prohibited by code due to compromising the integrity of the fire rated ceiling. I HIGHLY recommend this product! They make an 8 foot model too... And they're fully adjustable for various heights up to 10' 3" (ceiling to floor). I didn't do anything electric-wise this weekend, but this ladder is a huge step (no pun intended ;-)) in and of itself. I need to make numerous trips up there for this build, and this will make it very easy and safe. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Well congrats on the ladder thing there. :D Seems kind of a little over kill for just attics access unless you're planning on converting some of attic space into storage BUT at the same time I know it will make you feel safer... can't argue with anything done with safety in mind. I'm actually less afraid of my attic since I almost fell through... and that would be because I have plywood paths all over the place up there so I don't break through again :D I'm just happy I have access now (there was none before) in a convenient place.

In case you're wondering... Typical fold-out attic ladders require quite a bit of clearance. My laundry room (where my access is) is not large enough to accommodate that kind of ladder/stair thing. They're also a bitch to install. Many people install them into their (attached) garages, cutting a large hole in the ceiling to accommodate it. However (you guessed it), that is prohibited by code due to compromising the integrity of the fire rated ceiling.

Not code everywhere... at least for my local code... when we talked about this topic on my thread:

In Brevard County, Florida (Home of Kennedy Space Center) no permit is required to make an attic access door/panel, real name: Scuttle Hole Cover. I’ll quote the building plan examiner:

“as long as I do not mess with anything structural.”

That’s not saying permits are not required anywhere else, I know I do not need one.

And as I learn more about different codes around the country, I sure this will differ from place to place. Are you going to have your new Televater installation inspected on your next inspection? Marc

Good point about the code inconsistencies across the country, Marc. I vaguely remember your writing that way back when. As for my getting my ladder and new attic door inspected, I don't think it's necessary, since I didn't do anything structural and I didn't cut any new holes. I do think code requires a platform to hop onto, which as I wrote is ahead of the ladder at this point. I need to build one to the right that connects to the one that is already there. I'm sure the inspector will see and use it. since my Romex will be up there... And if he doesn't, I'll probably show it off. ;-) If there's an issue with it, of course I'll make it right. I know for a fact (in talking with the last inspector) that they have a policy of not hassling homeowners for unpermitted stuff when they're onsite for inspections of permitted stuff. They don't want be known as the "no good deed goes unpunished" patrol. ;-) About the only thing that I suppose could possibly be an issue is the lack of gypsum wallboard over the door... Yet whole house fans are legal (with permit), so I really doubt it's an issue. In fact, the new door I built is weatherstripped, unlike the old one, so it's a net gain. Worst case is I put drywall over the door or something. --Keith :mrgreen:

Word of caution - unless you have pix of your inspector naked with a german shepherd, I'd stick to what he ASKS to see - otherwise you run the risk of him finding something ELSE to complain about. Of course, in YOUR case (The Permit Nazi :wink: ) you might WANT him to find things that'll cost you money :lol: And, all joking aside, forgetting the "revenue enhancement" side of permitting for a moment, he might find something unsafe that you'd be GLAD to know... Steve

Hey Steve, You raise good points, as usual, both pro and con. I know there are cases where people have gotten ensnared by building inspectors allegedly abusing their power. (fitZ's horror story comes to mind.) However, in my dealings with my city's building department, in which I've been face-to-face on scene ay my house or in their permit center a mile away, I've been totally impressed and completely satisfied. They've consistently proven that they're in the business of helping me succeed in being compliant and safe. During my framing inspection, my next door neighbor asked the inspector if he had time to look at some improvements a previous owner had made in his garage. Yes, he literally invited him in to tell him what was not done to code! Answer: everything! :lol: Did he get "written up" or anything? Not at all. Consultation provided. Handshakes abound. Community service at its finest. Believe me: there are plenty of things I think my city does poorly. This isn't one of them. :-) I do need to adjust an ABS vent pipe and add extend the OSB platform in the attic to the right of the ladder, for sure. That'll be done this week(end). --Keith :mrgreen:

This 3-day weekend's plans:

• Build small OSB platform in attic to allow for safe mount/dismount from nifty new ladder. I believe code calls for "24 inch wide path to (forced air) unit unobstructed and 30 inch by 30 inch working area in front of controls. Right now the ladder is an obstruction, and I know I need to fix that. This will be more challenging and time consuming than it may seem, but it's not "rocket surgery."
• Run Romex from service panel to room. For this, I need to be able to get in and out of the attic with ease, as I expect it will take a number of trips to do it all!
• If I have time/energy, I may paint my fancy new attic door and put trim around it.

Wish me luck, and expect a ton of pics when I'm done. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

well, all "good luck" then ;)

Some progress to report. :) Yesterday I built that platform in the attic. Here's a shot standing in front of the furnace -- the yellow outline represents that which I built. It was deceptively time consuming. First of all, I tend to work slow and I try to plan out my steps so that I don't "paint myself into a corner." One thing that slowed me down a bit was dismantling, straightening, and reattaching the 2x6 box that sits on top of the 2x4 box at the opening -- it's amazing to me how terrible these tract homes are framed. :( I used a scrap piece of OSB left over from the beef-up effort and used a jigsaw to cut it to shape and size. The platform rests on 2x6s that are fastened to the bottom chords of the trusses. That's the main reason for it being time consuming -- simply attaching the OSB to the trusses would not work -- there needs to be several inches of insulation under it. I've got to tell you -- it is so easy to get in and out of my attic now. 8) What used to be a terrifying white-knuckler experience is now almost effortless. Even climbing onto the ladder from within the attic is very easy -- there are numerous places to brace oneself in the process. After doing some work related stuff today, I'll try to make some progress on running those electric supply lines. --Keith :mrgreen:

CONGRATS on the progress Keith :D :D :D WHAT a PICTURE :? Just for the record this is the 1st progress pic you've posted since 87 days ago on Oct 20, 06. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Marc

Yeah, yeah, I know... :oops: There hasn't been much worth showing in the last three months or so, for a variety of reasons -- holidays and work-related stuff especially got in the way of any real progress. But, today, I actually had a pretty productive day. This may not seem like a very exciting accomplishment, but for me, it's huge. 8) 8) 8) I ran my supply line in the attic this evening! 8) 8) 8) First, I exposed a 2' x 6' section of drywall inside of my garage above the service panel. I drilled another 1" hole in the header, attached some nail protection plates, and then fed four Romex lines (three 12 guage, one 14 guage), all taped together... I then drilled a 1" hole in the ceiling between inner and outer leaf, went up in the attic, and carefully and slowly navigated my way to the area above the panel. Although mindful of the dangers the whole time, I have to say I had a lot of things going in my favor: no insulation above the garage, room to stand for about half my journey, and plenty of truss members to grab onto. It was also not summertime. ;-) After a while I was able to feed the wires down the hole... Yeah, I know, it's probably overkill to have four junction boxes, one for each circuit. But, whatever -- I can afford the space and the couple of bucks for the boxes and covers. Now that those lines are pulled, I feel justified in showing the rest of the rough electrical work... I'm going to be quite busy for the next several days, doing some day job related catch-up, as well as some vacation preparation... So I don't think I'll be scheduling the inspection for Wednesday as I had initially planned. It occurred to me that I haven't done the firestopping that I described on page 75. I think I should have that in place before I get the framing inspected. It's been so long that I forgot I had intended to finish the rough electrical before doing that step. :oops: There's a price to pay for slacking! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

Hai Keith, nice to see some visuals of progress! About electrical wires: I don't know code in the US or other parts of the world, but here in the Netherlands THAT's sure not the way to wire up. Code here is: 1xphase (2,5mm2, brown), 1xNUL (2,5mm2, blue), 1xground (2,5mm2, green/yellow) and for switches 1x1,5mm2, black. And all those wires go either in a plastic tube (16mm for example) or we use pre-made wires (ymvk for example) which is protected and molded within vinyl (those are pretty thick and heavy cables for industrial use mostly). NEVER any plain wire. Here are the 16mm tubes I'm talking about: and the ymvk cable: You're the man of code, and if you say that's how it's dun at your location. Thaz fine. As an former electrician I'm just watching over ye shoulder. Anywazy, keep the progress (and pix) going. cheers, ro