FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

sharward wrote:

I can also install blocking between the joists if that would be necessary to keep the joists straight and/or to keep them from flopping over under load. (Credit goes to Steve for raising that concern a long time ago.) Another option would be to run a 2x6 or some kind of strap along the top of the joists. --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, Steve, Rod or anyone else: I've been trying to compare conceptually the differences between ceiling and floor joists with respect to the 'flopping over' thing... It seems to me that floor joists, with the load on the top chord would be much more likely to flop-over -- possibly due to greater lateral forces at the top chord of the joists (or is it just simply a building-up of the inevitable slight 'canting' from the vertical, or twists in the joists?). Ceiling joists, with the load on the bottom chord, would seem to me to be at least partially 'stabilized' by the weight of the ceiling materials (i.e., sheetrock)... Then again, I can 'see' that ceiling joists would still have the top chord in compression and the bottom chord in tension -- like floor joists.... maybe it's THESE forces that can potentially cause the 'flopping over'? Perhaps the 'stabilizing' of ceiling joists with the ceiling material load doesn't have that much of an effect -- as does the other forces -- and that ceiling joists and floor joists are just as liable as each other to flop-over? Someone set me right on this. Oh, and what effect does the width of the flanges (this pertaining more to steel members perhaps than to wood members) have in helping counter torsional forces that result in flop-over? In other words if, say, you have an 8" deep joist with a 2" flange as opposed to a 1.25" flange, OR you have back to back S-section members as opposed to a single S-section member (although I think I know the answer in that case), OR if you have sistered wooden joists with a 3" width as opposed to 1.5" of a single joist: what, if any, stabilization from flop-over would you gain? K

And fitZ, I see several unusual things about that framing... Some kind of plywood block thingy, an funny angle to the vertical piece, and, uh, strange dimensions of lumber throughout?

c Oh, yea there is a few. But mostly the pocket bore/screws. This is a mockup for the panels. The block behind the stud is temp untill the stud was fastened. I had to do this piecemeal to cut/fit, hence fastening from below. The top plate had to be blocked first with the plywood positioning block. Here is the reason for the angles. This allows close tolerance to adjacent fabric screens over 703. BTW Kieth, your hard work is really showing and hope when the time comes to beat the hell outta those drums...no one will hear a thing. :lol: fitZ

Keith, sorry to but in on your thread here but I was just wondering if you have any experience working with masonry block walls. I'm asking because I have a lot of penatrations thru my block walls in my project studio build and I want to patch them up to make my outer shell airtite. Is it as simple as buying some concrete or mortar mix and stuffing the holes in the wall until they are filled or is there a certain technique or process I need to follow? I'm very curious to see how much this will help in decreasing outside noise levels.

Sorry, cyeazel -- I have no experience with concrete blocks. You may want to ask Marc. He's had a lot of experience lately with concrete blocks! :twisted: So..... Yesterday I bought the hurricane/seismic joist ties and today I got my hands on the correct nails for the job. A note to all planning to use Simpson Strong Tie products, such as those I showed on the previous page: Make sure you review the specs to determine the correct size nails! It's best to look up the product on their Web site first before you buy, so that you know you are using the correct piece for the job, and so you can determine the correct nails to use. However, if you don't have that luxury, there's usually a catalog hanging in the aisle (15.7mb!) that has all the information you'll need. If you don't understand the specs, ask for assistance. Use of incorrect nails or improper placement of fasteners could severely compromise their effectiveness, including wood splitting. This is especially important if you're building in seismic or hurricane zones. :!: I think I'll trim my joists down to about 9' 6" so that they extend beyond the top plates by about 3"-4". Why? I dunno... It just seems they don't have to be trimmed so carefully. Plus, in the event that I have to do a "real" fireblock, I'll have a surface to which to fasten something. I'm actually starting to think ahead a bit to electrical. :twisted: I plan on wiring up the room and having everything terminate to some J boxes in the area between the doors. Later on I'll feed wiring to the electrical panel. I haven't decided yet whether or not I'll hire a pro do add the breakers and tie it all together (after passing inspection, of course). If I do hire a pro, it should be a pretty quick and easy job, so I doubt it would cost very much. I had been planning to do recessed boxes with putty packs. However, I'm rather impressed with Stick's method of just having the Romex wire fed through a caulk-filled hole in the drywall with the intent of using flush-mounted boxes. Stick's method does remove the possibility of TL through the boxes... :roll: ...But, then again, I prefer the look of receptacles and light switches that are flush with the surface of the wall. Still another variation (either flush or not) is the use of conduit. Aaron's recent conduit work is pretty awe-inspiring... :roll: ...It seems it would be really great for future changes. However, I don't want to overengineer. (Ha! :P Yeah, right! :lol:) At this point I'm leaning towards "the Stick method," since there will be surface-mounted absorbers on the walls, which obviously won't be flush, so it would seem the benefit of flush mounting is rather diminished. Feel free to share thoughts if you have any! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

The last couple of weeks have brought news at work that is likely going to slow me down on the build. I'm a Web software developer at a large not-for-profit hospital and medical foundation chain. My team at work consists of a manager, several project managers, a bunch of developers, some architects, and an analyst. The team is divided into to parts -- a larger "capital" side and a smaller "operational" side. I'm on the operational side, which has a project manager, an architect, two developers, and an analyst. Our analyst went out for maternity leave back in July. We hired a temp for a few weeks to get us through that. Unfortunately for us, our analyst has decided to move out of state, and our architect and my fellow developer have accepted positions elsewhere in the enterprise. Tomorrow is our temp's last day, which means after the departures, I'm the only one left to mind the store, per se. :evil: Our manager is acting quickly to get the positions backfilled, but that means a lot of time spent on interviews, then ramping up new folks. We're also getting a new temp ASAP, but the same challenges apply there. I've been granted this coming Monday off, but I expect that will be the last non-holiday weekday off between now and January/February for a Walt Disney World vacation my wife and folks are planning. So much for my "four day work weeks through the end of the year" plan. :( It could be worse -- it could have been layoffs, right? :roll: Fortunately, our business is growing and revenues are good, so there's no imminent risk of that anytime soon. Still, my work and pressure load will be pretty overwhelming for the next couple of months, and while I've been promised a helping hand by the "capital" side, there are pretty strict rules in place that prohibit capital funded folks from doing ongoing operational activities, and I know they're swamped too. Hopefully I can do some kick-ass progress this weekend in an effort to keep the momentum going. --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, I just wanted to say something about recording in that space - I was recording in a 9X12 room for 5 years, and had a drum kit, keyboard, guitar amp, rack of guitars, and my mixing desk setup 24/7. It was tight, but was workable. I couldn't fit a band in there (which I know you are planning to do), but I do think that your space will be big enough to do some recording in the future if you decide to go this route. The key to this is to take advantage of as much of the upper space in your room as possible for acoustic treatment, so that the lower part is as empty as possible. Make sure to attach whatever acostic treatment you do get in the corners between the walls and ceiling - this will give you the best performance in the lower frequencies, but will not reduce your floor space. If most of your acoustic panels start at about the 4-5ft high mark, that will not significantly change the usable space in the room. Even positioning them so that they start 1 foot above the floor gives you enough space for the feet of stands to slide underneath. Just something to consider when you are putting up panels - they don't all have to be on the walls. The ceiling is a great place to put a little extra treatment.

Thanks for the tips, Marc! I'm sure I'll go the route you describe... But I really hope I can squeeze a band in there. I may have to lose some weight first though. ;-) Quick note about nails: No luck getting 1½" "joist hanger" nails of correct thickness at Contractors' Warehouse or True Value hardware, but much to my surprise, Home Depot stocks EXACTLY the right size. :D FYI, 9 guage is too thick: 10¼ guage is perfect. Always look up the specs! Unfortunately the specs state the diameter in hundredths of an inch, while the boxes of joist hanger nails are identified by guage. I literally had to hold a sample nail on the "actual size" sample images in the Simpson Strong Tie catalog to be sure. And lest you think fatter is better, the 9 guage nails don't fit through the holes and I would expect there to be greater likelihood of wood splitting and stuff. I know, this is boring as hell. Point is: this crap is important, especially in earthquake country. Don't just jam any old nail in those ties! You tuned in, Marc D.? ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

You tuned in, Marc D.?

YUP tuned into the several topics on last few pages of your thread. You just sent me on a definition hunt for "Ridge Board" and then a thinking quest as to where & how you would have installed ridge boards. Since my ceiling will be framed like yours (joists bearing on inner walls) I'm watching and will most likely mimic what your doing. Honestly I've not put that much thought into how I am going to secure those joists up there, so I thank you for posting ALL this stuff again. I'm guessing though being "tuned in" is refering to my previous comment of

Sharward, got to say though I am disapointed you did not take the splay/acoustics issue to the extent you have of other parts of your room Since your room is so close in size to mine you might have saved me some work ahhh but oh well I've got to get back to my drawing table sooner or later.

... and now to the multiple posts with advice on acoustically treating your room? Marc :twisted:

Cool. :) I'm glad you're getting value from this minutea, Marc, and I always welcome your input. Hopefully tonight or tomorrow morning I'll be trimming joists, now that I've got the ties and compatible nails in hand. --Keith :mrgreen:

Unless someone tells me that I missed something... I'm finished with framing!! :D :D :D Here's a shot from the garage. You can see the joists extending past the ends of the top plates by a few inches. This is the other side. The joists extend even further over here. The stop short about 2 inches from the outer wall. It may become necessary for me to attach plywood or something to the underside of these ends as a fire stop. Rod covers this in his book, so I may be looking at that over the next few days. Here is the blocking between joists across the center of the room, which should help keep the joists upright and not twisting over time. Here's a shot of the Simpson Strong Tie H1 hurricane/seismic ties. ...and a close-up of one of them. Oh, and apparently one of the damned flies that was bugging me the entire time! :evil: Next up: electrical! I posted some thoughts I had on this earlier, but nobody had anything to say... :roll: ...Speak now or forever hold your peace! ;-) Tomorrow I'll be buying wire and running it. I'll need to decide whether or not to use recessed boxes really soon. --Keith :mrgreen:

Congrats Keith! I love the look of metal and wood .... There's something about the harmonious 'hybrid' nature of steel/wood that's pleasing.... Are you gonna throw a 'finished with framing' party? :D

Wiring - since you mention absorbers, I'll change my vote from recessed electrical to surface mount - you'll still wanna offset any of those caulked holes if there's anywhere both sides of the wall will be penetrated... Steve Whatcha gonna do for lighting, BTW? Something like Kendale's super-cloud, or??!?

Having done a bunch of these electrical boxes in my studio, I can tell you that doing recessed boxes is tricky (depending on how much drywall you put up. We thought we had it right (and I was working with a Master Electrician) but they ended up being TOO recessed in the end (2 layers of 5/8" DW). You can get extender rings that will make the boxes appear deeper and I think they make deeper than normal boxes. If I were to do it again, I'd get a couple of left-over hunks of 2x4, attach the same number of drywall scraps to it, then mount a box to one of the 2x4s so you know exactly how deep to set them on the 2x4. I know you could probably measure and calculate but I did that twice and still ended up with boxes too deep. I'm sure there is some sort of building code too that tells you how far back from the front of the stud the nails/screws that hold the box have to be. If they're too close to the edge, you'll split the wood. Just my thoughts... len

It's always nice to upload pics just before going to sleep, then wake up to words from some of my favorite fans... :twisted: No parties yet, Luftweg, beyond maybe some "woohoos" here on the tread. ;-) I've just gotta keep the momentum going. Although it is a great milestone and the poor unsuspecting neighbors fetching their mail can actually visualize what's going on much better now when I suck them in to look at the progress. :lol: Len and Steve, you're pushing me in the direction of the surface mounted box. :roll: Len, figure I'm going to have 3/4" OSB and three layers of 5/8" drywall... :shock: I actually have a block of OSB with three pieces of 5/8" drywall attached to it, which I show to people... Although the OSB on that chunk is too thin (15/32"). Point is, it'll be about 2 3/4" of material! :shock: Regarding fire blocking, Steve mentioned this in a private message this morning:

knightfly wrote:

Framing's lookin' good - you might attach short stubs to your OTHER frame, lower than the protruding joists - then, gypsum screwed to upper joist extensions, rockwool under that, gypsum under that (fastened to the OUTER studs - that would give you a fire block made up of 2 layers gyp with rockwool in between, and NO HARD CONTACT between frames. If that was confusing, I think I posted a sketch on Kathy's thread a few months ago...

Unfortunately, I don't think that will work in my case, given that I only have about 1/2" of stud remaining on my beefed-up outer leaf walls, and my south outer leaf wall is actually a middle leaf wall with no studs exposed at all. Maybe I can do that only along my new outer leaf framing though... :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

I resisted working on electrical today (which would have been fun) in order to (hopefully) settle my fireblocking issue. I studied the illustrations in Rod's book showing fire blocking (I found two examples). I am adapting his concepts to fit my situation (hopefully!). On my beef-up walls I cut some little strips of scrap 5/8" drywall, and used construction adhesive to attach them to the surface of the beef, in an effort to create a relatively even surface along the entire wall. This extra 5/8" of drywall came close to flush with the surface of the studs. I also put some 2x4 blocks between the studs on one of the outer leaf walls at the same height -- just below the bottom surface of the extension of the inner leaf ceiling joists. I then screwed a small strip of gypsum wallboard to the joists, leaving about 1 1/2" of a gap between the edge of the wallboard and the blocks. I then put a folded up towel in the gap to demonstrate what I intend to do with some 2" thick Thermafiber Sound Attenuation Fire Blankets (SAFB) or Roxul Acoustical Fire Batt (AFB). If I can get thinner insulation (1" perhaps?), then maybe I'll use that and make the gap about 5/8" instead. This is the plan for the east and west walls... For the north and south walls, I was planning on doing something similar, but a little easier -- running a piece of drywall up about 12" towards the ceiling, leaving a small air gap, and stuffing that gap with the rockwool. So, basically, the same type of thing, only rotated (up) 90 degrees. Will this be OK? :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

len-morgan wrote:

....If I were to do it again, I'd get a couple of left-over hunks of 2x4, attach the same number of drywall scraps to it, then mount a box to one of the 2x4s so you know exactly how deep to set them on the 2x4. I know you could probably measure and calculate but I did that twice and still ended up with boxes too deep. ...len

A template as it were? that's a really good idea, len. Anyway, with all the fuss about depths and allowable mounting, etc., and potential compromises to sound isolation, isn't an easier thing all around just to run surface conduit? I guess the big thing is to be able to run conduit, exposed, and have to NOT look too much like a warehouse or workshop... I think -- with some thoughtful ideas (of which I'm usually lacking) -- of how to get an aesthetic appeal out of conduit and surface boxes, one can have it that way, and maybe actually be able to incorporate it into a 'motif' for the room(s)... I know there is the 'PlugMold' stuff, but it's kinda expensive, and frankly, not especially attractive either... Any ideas? K

It was slim pickins at AMS here in Sacramento today. The only mineral wool they had in stock is Thermafiber SAFB in 3" thickness (24" wide too :roll:). anything else will be a store-to-store transfer or even a special order. It's also a lot fluffier than I expected. :roll: I bought one bag. I'd still appreciate feedback on my firestopping plan, and soon, as I'm working on it right away. :) I also bought over $300 worth of Romex today. Wow - wire is expensive! :shock: --Keith :mrgreen:

I think I'll swing by the permit center tomorrow morning for some consultation/guidance. --Keith :mrgreen:

I also bought over $300 worth of Romex today. Wow - wire is expensive!

Yeah, it's more than tripled in price!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

Yeah, I know the cost of copper has skyrocketed. On the flip side, though, framing lumber is at its lowest cost in a decade. --Keith :mrgreen:

I'd still appreciate feedback on my firestopping plan, and soon, as I'm working on it right away.

Keith, It's looking like my inspector is going to let me just fill the entire cavity between my two sets of wall framing with regular fluffy insulation (R21 in each wall, so that they touch), which should satisfy the fire blocking requirement. You might want to check with your permit folks to see if this would work for you, although it sounds like you've already started on the gypboard/thermafiber solution. Another thought is that you may be required to supply a fire block every 10 linear feet of wall - that is (if I'm understanding this correctly, which I may not be) you need to supply a vertically oriented fire block (as opposed to horizontally oriented, which you're already taking care of), from the top to the bottom of the wall, every 10 feet. In a regular wall, the studs and bays full of insulation satisfy this; with double-wall construction, the gap between the walls necessitates this requirement. To satisfy it, you may be able to completely fill one back-to-back set of bays with insulation (so that there is no gap). Again, if I'm not understanding this correctly, someone please let me know. ---Devin

Great point, Devin! I became aware of that requirement in the permit office this morning. So, here's the good news: My plan to "pinch" some Thermafiber with some drywall as illustrated in the above photo gets a "thumbs up" from the building department. :D Here's the specific code reference in effect in my city* that explicitly permits this:

1998 California Building Code (pp. 1-70 & 1-71)
Section 708 - Fire Blocks and Draft Stops
708.2 Fire blocks.
708.2.1 Where required. ...snip...
2. At all interconnections between concealed vertical and horizontal spaces such as occur at soffits, drop ceilings and cove ceilings. ...snip...
708.2.2 Fire block construction. Except as provided in Item 4 above, fireblocking shall consist of 2 inches (51 mm) nominal lumber or two thicknesses of 1-inch (25m mm) nominal lumber with broken lap joints or one thickness of 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural panel with joints backed by 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural panel or one thickness of 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) Type 2-M particleboard with joints backed by 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) Type 2-M particleboard. Fire blocks may also be of gypsum board, cement fiber board, batts or blankets of :twisted: mineral :twisted: or glass fiber, or other approved materials installed in such a manner as to be securely retained in place. Loose-fill insulation shall not be used as a fire block unless specifically tested in the form and manner intended for use to demonstrate its ability to remain in place and to retard the spread of fire and hot gasses. Walls having parallel or staggered studs for sound-transmission control shall have fire blocks of batts or blankets of :twisted: mineral :twisted: or glass fiber or other approved flexible materials.

(FYI, an interesting point -- there's a black line in the margin along those last points, which leads me to believe that they are relatively recent additions or edits to the code. :)) In short, if I do the plan I described and illustrated above, it appears I can get away with not doing a complete fill of the walls and ceiling. However, as Devin pointed out, I'll need to have complete fill in each corner, halfway along the long walls, and across the ceiling at the halfway point. I was a bit nervous about this, as everything I saw about fire rated assemblies required brute seals everywhere, which would have made maintaining an isolated inner leaf frame nearly impossible. However, it appears that the fire stops inside wall and ceiling cavities don't have to be done with the same level of solidity. They're still important, mind you, but not as much as, say, the firewall between a garage and living space. Yet another example of the helpfulness and courtesy of the counter folks at my city building department. 8) Three staff members took quite an interest in my project -- not unlike past experiences there. Looks like I need to order some more Thermafiber, eh? :shock: Time to do some math to figure out how many bags I need and of what thickness. Man, that's going to be expensive! :cry: --Keith :mrgreen: *Always check with your local building department to see what requirements are in effect where you live. Codes differ from city to city, even within California. Yours may be more or less restrictive than this.

To quote an old nursery rhyme, "yessir, yessir, 3(00) bags full... Keithers, yer gittin' slow in yer old age - you haven't commented about the change in my slogan yet... :wink:

change in my slogan yet

Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...

I'll comment... I like both the old and new, the old one seems to fit you better. My only question would be if I do hear the white noise at end of tunnel, will the ringing in my ears be gone or distract me enough so that I can not enjoy the white noise? I used to listen to white noise (static from untuned radio) through headphones while riding the bus (in my teenage years) so that no other noise would distract my thinking/daydreaming of guitar riffs or lyric melodies. Marc

Maybe tinnitus changes the white noise to pink :wink: Probly couldn't use your method these days; I don't remember the last time I found a place on the dial without some kinda drivel on it - they're gonna have to pry my XM radio out of my cold, dead fingers... :D Steve