FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

If you use lumber wet before it can warp, then you can't SEE it warping - it just causes your house to explode when it reaches its maximum tension due to warpage Twisted Evil (just kidding...)

That theres funny even made me laugh Yesterday we had a huge downpour seemed like two inches in 15 minutes plus hail. I was out there trying to cover wood and equiptment and just got soaked. The dogs running around with his tail between his legs thinking I'm beating him and making loud booms and crackles. By the time I was finished All I could think of was warping studs and then Steves comment freaked me out :shock:

Keith, Just want to ask you before you put up your inner walls. Are sure you want your room to be a rectangle with primary purpose as sound isolated rehearsal room? I went through your entire thread again scanning for any mention of acoustics within the room, could not find any, did I miss something :twisted: I kind of asked you this before on my own thread and you dittoed Dan F’s statement:

I'm not planning any slot resonators in my project at this time. At the moment I’m just planning basic broadband absorption on the walls/ceiling, with bass traps in corner. But if i can't get things to sound good i may look into some slat type treatments ... but i think i can worry about that later? It’s certainly not going to be built in to the construction.

I’ve made a few quick drawings (just for reference) on my thread recently of my inner walls, showing a rectangle room (which is close to same size as yours) BUT a rectangle room is not what I’m building, unless someone gives me a good reason not to. Between Johns posts & designs, Rod’s book and a comments from Steve and AVare on this thread Help me make a final decision... angled walls or extra space (which I over babbled on :oops: ) I’ve decided to splay my side walls @ 6 degrees each, from front wall to about 50% back in the room. This is so that the splay will go to behind the listening position which is 38% back from front wall and will help with reflections. This is the only thing I am building in to inner leaf. The rest will be acoustics in the room and won’t be installed to well after I officially move in. I’m planning on drawing my room up again to post in the near future as I get exact measurements of my outer walls. :roll: Something else to keep in mind… I’ve worked with a few musicians over the internet; mostly friends located in Canada, Nashville and hear in Florida all of whom have never met and ended up on same recordings. One musician, a drummer (who also works for a national act & has a great contact list) does well making over $100 a song, recording from his drums from his home studio. He typically replaces drum loops, midi drum tracks or even badly done live drums. I email him a stereo MP3 click on 1 side and music minus drum mixed bass heavy and then he file transfers 10 tracks of individual drums back to me or recording engineer. I know of many drummers doing this. Getting real drums onto tracks is the hardest instrument for a typical solo working songwriter with DAW who most likely plays guitar & or keys (like me). :twisted: Since I consider you my friend now, I don’t feel timid throwing even silly questions about stacking wood at you, know you love to cover every angle of your build and you’ve got the most detailed thread on this forum called Recording Studio Design, I ask “are sure you want your room to be a rectangle with primary purpose as sound isolated rehearsal room?” Marc :twisted:

guitardad72 wrote:

Since I consider you my friend now, I don’t feel timid throwing even silly questions about stacking wood at you, know you love to cover every angle of your build and you’ve got the most detailed thread on this forum called Recording Studio Design, I ask “are sure you want your room to be a rectangle with primary purpose as sound isolated rehearsal room?”

Hello, my friend. :-) You raise a good question that hasn't been covered in much detail so far on this marathon thread. In short, I'm building a soundproof rectangular box for the purpose of playing without disturbing Mrs. Sharward or any of my neighbors. Recording is not planned in the space. I know nothing about recording and, quite frankly, I don't have much interest in it. There is no shortage of places in my area to get recording done. In fact, I know of a really nice place up in Meadow Vista that's almost done. ;-) I'll probably build some clouds (Stick's project is inspiring in this regard) and mount some absorbers on the walls and possibly corners in order to make the room sound a bit less crappy. ;-) I simply don't have the real estate to do any wall splaying. :( My outer dimensions are about 10 ' x 17', and my inner dimensions will be about 8' x 15'. :roll: To do any kind of angle would be very detrimental to my square footage, which is already going to be extremely small (around 120 square feet). You'll probably think I'm nuts when you learn that I'd ultimately like to fit a band in there. :roll: Yeah, I know -- it's going to be cramped. That's why my plans for populating the room with stuff have to be very thoughtful and deliberate. Ever notice how houses or apartments always seem much larger when they're empty? Well, this room will be mostly empty all the time, aside from a P.A., a drum kit, stools, and perhaps some small padded ottoman cubbies that double as storage containers. When we bought this place, I originally saw the area in the garage and thought I'd have about 200 square feet of usable space. It wasn't until eight months or so after we had moved in that I came to realize just what it would take to build this thing and what it will cost, in terms of money as well as square footage. Believe me: if I had known then what I know now, we would have sought property with a bit of acreage, enough to accommodate a small accessory building. Of course, if I were willing to sacrifice more of the garage, I could have a larger room. However, having both of our cars garaged at night is something that means a lot to me and Mrs. Sharward. It's definitely a fair question you've asked, and I expect you and others may think I'm nuts... :roll: ...But it's too late to turn back now! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

and I expect you and others may think I'm nuts...

"Nuts" ain't the right word. Need a few days to figure out the most appropriate word. BTW I figure you would loose less then 6 sqft if your side walls were splayed @ 6 degrees each to half way back in the room. You could do this after the fact... carefully build 2x4 wall to make the splay, add one layer of drywall and drill a couple holes to backfill the empty space between splayed drywall and inner wall drywall (that your about to put up) with caulk :twisted: to avoid triple leaf. :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: Marc

I'll consider a change in plans to splay the walls a bit in the way you describe, Marc... But one problem I have J-bolts already set in place. :roll: I'd have to use very wide trapezoidal soleplates, and even then I'd probably have to hammerdrill a few new wedge bolts. Are you sure I can't get away with some basic superficial treatments? --Keith :mrgreen:

does anyone know what the minimum degree of "splayage" is required to minimize flutter echo? if keith were to just move the ends of the walls on one side in by one inch, would that help? then you wouldn't need to mess with your existing j bolts, they would just be penetrating the sole plate closer to the edges than the center.

does anyone know what the minimum degree of "splayage" is required to minimize flutter echo? if keith were to just move the ends of the walls on one side in by one inch, would that help?

Minimum splay-age of parallel walls is 12 degrees. That equals 6 degrees per side wall or an angle of 1 foot in 10. In Keith's case 1" would not do it as his room as is will be 7' 10" wide and 14' 10" long as per his last floor plan on page 19 of this thread here. What I've asked Keith to think about is narrowing half of the room as shown in attached pic. Loosing 5.5 sq ft of. Mind you the door is also in the way of good corner bass trap.

Are you sure I can't get away with some basic superficial treatments?

Keith, Of course you could use some superficial treatments, this would take care of your primary purpose for your room... however in the name of being cool, keeping up with everyone else on this forum and considering future unconsidered of uses of the room... recording and mixing your drums & music... having this built into room or devising a way to put it in after the fact I think is an important consideration especially with the minimal loss of sq ft. Also worth mentioning is my degree of sureness on this topic which is about 95%... I'm curious to see if others share this 50% splay approach to small rooms with from lets say 100 to 200 sq ft floor space. In these size rooms every square inch counts. Marc

I'd think that if you were worried about the parallel walls (which you probably should be), and you ARE going to be concerned about the intense volume a band will create (earplugs, anyone?), that a lot of absorbtion is the way to go. Killing flutter echoes with splayed walls is great, but it still reflects all the sound back into the room. If you're going to sacrifice 6 feet of floor space, I'd put a wall of thick absorbtion on the back wall or something, and then a whole lot of panels and clouds all around. And to help with the low end, and more hf absorbtion, do "corner traps" all around where the walls meet the ceiling, so you don't have to eat into your floor space. One thing you do have is ceiling height. Oh, and space your ceiling clouds down from the ceiling more than I'm doing. I think the farther you get them away from the ceiling, the lower the frequency you're going to slow down. And they're a great place to put lighting. Another option would be to do that splay with a sawtooth sort of design along the wall. The same angles, but say a 3 foot section of splay that steps back to the wall, then another 3 foot section, etc. I'd draw it, but don't have the time... gotta a studio to build, you know! Lemme know if you're not following what I mean. Seems like I've seen it in plans around here before too...

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. Greatly appreciated, as always. 8) Earplugs? Absolutely! :twisted: I carry [url=http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er20.aspx[/url]these earplugs[/url] on my keychain and I definitely wear them whenever I play drums indoors. 8) Stick, your suggestions for absorbtion are great -- that's pretty much what I was planning to do in the back of my mind, although I haven't given too much thought to it yet (obviously). I'm now considering using 2x10s for my long wall soleplates and top plates and using a circular saw to cut along where the faces of the studs would be. I'm hesitant to do this, though, because of the additional effort, not only in terms of framing (I'd have to frame in place again :evil:) but also in terms of drywall (walls and ceiling :shock:). That being said, I'll do it if the consensus is that I'll be much happier with the room over absorbtion alone. Since I was going to do framing this weekend, I'd have to get these changes signed off by the city tomorrow. Let me know what you think! Note the revised dimensions of the room. It shrunk. :roll: The old drawings were done before I broke up the concrete and experienced the issues with the foundation concrete irregularities. (Remember all that concrete manicuring I had to do? :evil:) Realize that the measurements are for rough framing only -- I expect to lose about 2 1/2" on each surface due to drywall and OSB inside the room. :( --Keith :mrgreen:

Kieth, I don't remember how much space you have between your inner and outer walls, but if you have enough room, couldn't you just lay your 2x10s at the angles your shooting for and let them "hang off the back" uncut? IF you have the space and you're not planning on putting drywall on the backside of the inner walls, it seems like this would be a lot less work. In fact, why couldn't you use 2x4 (or x6) sole plates and just put them at an angle? Is it the J-bolt issue there? Just a thought... len

Yes, it's the J bolts that are prohibiting me from having more freedom in this area. Here's a newer drawing that shows the approximate location of the J-bolts. --Keith :mrgreen:

and perhaps some small padded ottoman cubbies

Are you sure it's not the walls that need to be padded?? :lol: :wink:

Actually, Aaron, I could have used the padded room about a year and half ago when I was struggling with the plans for this project! :lol: Well, I was kind of sick yesterday -- some kind of odd stomach thing. I stayed home from work as a result (which is very unusual for me). I had planned to take Friday and Monday off, making a four day weekend for construction work. It was pretty tough getting motivated today, but I did, and I got some good stuff accomplished. But first, a bit of a diversion... About six months ago some of you may recall the ordeal with our eldest kitty -- a nasty infection, two surgeries, and the acute problem she had with her kidney. Well, I'm a little late in reporting how well she's doing. Her incisions healed up and she's doing really well. She is still diagnosed with chronic renal failure, which is a terminal condition. We've all gotten quite used to giving her fluid therapy every other day. Her bloodwork is looking pretty good -- she's basically stable. Hopefully she stays that way for a long time. So, here's what I got done today. I applied two beads of acoustic sealant to some 2x2s and predrilled and prenailed them. I then installed it all around the perimeter of the outer leaf ceiling, driving the nails into the top plates of the wall frames. I even applied another couple of beads of sealant along the side and bottom edges. I also mudded the joints of the 2nd layer of drywall on the ceiling. There had been about a 3/4" gap all around the perimeter -- for some odd reason, when they drywalled the garage, they did the walls first, then they did the ceiling... :roll: ...Everything I've read about drywall says one should do the ceiling first so that its outer edge helps to support the drywall on the walls. When I tore the original drywall down, it left behind a gap. The gap was too wide to caulk. So, to seal up the gap, I decided to use lumber with sealant to ensure air tightness. I even applied caulk along the edges after it was installed for good measure. I realize that 1 1/2" of lumber is inferior to 2 layers of 5/8" of drywall with Green Glue sandwiched in between... I'm just trying not to worry about this slight weak link in the design. :roll: Tomorrow I plan to trim my 2x4x10s to inner leaf stud length, and then maybe get some walls framed up. Unfortunately, I have not provisioned for any assistance in hoisting the frames up afterwards yet... :shock: ...So I might end up with one seriously heavy frame on the floor that I can't lift! :lol: Then I'll be seeking volunteers! :roll: Or maybe I'll build the frame with 1/3 the number of studs, making it much easier to lift on my own, and then frame the missing studs in place. :roll: I should point out that, at this point, I'm planning to frame the inner leaf walls "the easy way" (i.e., not following the angles as posted earlier this week)... If you think I'm nuts, speak now or forever hold your peace!! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

bahh, splayage shmayage, who needs it.

I totally heard your thick Brooklyn accent when I read that. 8) Thanks for your vote! :-D --Keith :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

...I should point out that, at this point, I'm planning to frame the inner leaf walls "the easy way" (i.e., not following the angles as posted earlier this week)... If you think I'm nuts, speak now or forever hold your peace!! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith: Do you mean that your inner walls will not be 'splayed', or angled? If so, I'm not sure, but I DON'T think you are crazy for not doing it... Does Rod mention somewhere in his book that one CAN do that, but that it would require room treatment to 'correct'? I think also that it was rationalized because the room would have to be treated anyway, regardless of wall angles (i.e., angling walls does not preclude room treatment, especially for 'amatuer' constructions)... and if the interior space size would be drastically compromised with the angled walls. [I don't wanna quote Rod's book, as I don't have it with me here in town... so maybe Rod himself could verify or debunk?] Truth be known, I wasn't planning on splaying-schmaying the walls either, but I still don't know that yet for sure, since my project has stalled because the relocation of the 1st floor to basement stairwell WILL mostly likely be taking place (and this will change/increase interior dimensions considerably). K

Cool. It's settled then. Tomorrow I'll be hammering together some very basic wall frames, sans splaying-schmaying. ;-) If I had more room to spare, I would have designed the room differently. Unfortunately, I don't have that luxury. Well, today I had some fun with the miter saw. I trimmed 52 studs down to 8' 8 3/4", mostly two at a time. I cut one piece a little longer and attached a scrap of 1x2 as a kind of a jig. I then used it to pull two 2xs towards the blade. Mmmmm... I like the smell of sawdust. ;-) I stacked the trimmed studs on top of the extra drywall. The bins contain the 14 1/2+" end scraps, so I can use them as blocks/noggins if I choose. See? No more 2x4s on the porch now. All that's left out there are the 2x6s -- those are the ceiling joists, which I'll trim down once the walls are up. Tomorrow I'm going to take a stab at framing up a couple of walls! :twisted: Although I do have an out-of-town friend in the area tomorrow, so I'm not sure what all will get accomplished. --Keith :mrgreen:

My awesome father-in-law helped me with framing today. 8) Here we are finishing up the west wall, which as planned was assembled in the main part of the garage. And here's the west and south wall in position, leaning outward and temporarily joined with a block for stability. Three bungee cords and a temporary stud acting as a leg will keep it nice and steady for tonight. I need to buy a new 16-foot pressure-treated soleplate tomorrow for the east wall. The one I had planned to use, but had doubts about, has a knot right at its end and part of the corner broke off. Neither of us are comfortable proceeding with it in its current state. The worst case scenario would be that I fail that part of the framing inspection, which would be one hell of a difficult fix to make. So, we're not going to take any chances with it. Also, I had a heck of a time end nailing the 16d (3 1/2") galvanized box nails through the pressure treated lumber! :evil: Although the wood is light, it's extraordinarily hard and unfortunately extremely knotty (they were the last pieces available when I bought them :evil:). Making matters worse is that code requires 3 end nails into each stud when you're using box nails (common nails only require two). So, flimsy nails + knotty, hard lumber = a hell of a lot of bent nails! :evil: :evil: :evil: This slowed us down a lot. Yeah, I know -- a nail gun would have been nice... But my landscaper buddy hadn't dropped it off for me and I forgot to ask him about it. :roll: Unfortunately, I could not find common galvanized 16d nails (Home Depot doesn't stock them). If I weren't so pooped from today's work, I'd be really excited about the progress! (OK, OK, I'm pretty psyched. :twisted:) More framing fun tomorrow... Although getting new tires for the RX-8 may happen and that will take some time away. We'll see! Father-in-law says he's available to help, barring unforeseens. :D --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, I just spent the last few days reading this thread from the beginning. I can't thank you enough for thoroughly documenting your work. I'm just beginning the design phase of a garage project very similar to yours, and you have provided me with a wealth of information. If you don't mind my asking, where do you think your final cost for your project will come in? I'm trying to put together a budget for my studio, and I'm sure I'll be following many of the steps you have. Thanks! MIDIMan

Welcome to the forum, MIDIman, and thank you so much for the very thoughtful post. I'm really blown away by it. For you to process it all from start to here, and then post here first with such appreciation, means a lot to me. :) Final cost? Ha! :lol: I totally lost track. That implies that I was keeping track in the first place, which I wasn't! :roll: I'm sure it will be way over US$10K, including costs I incurred before even starting construction (consultations and such). That is something I wish I had done better. I think it's too far gone now to try to backtrack any meaningful numbers. Here's today's progress! My father-in-law came through with another day's worth of much needed assistance. Behold: the east wall is now roughly in place! All three walls are leaning outwards and temporarily secured to keep them from falling down. Just like yesterday, we were very meticulous about stud placement. Fortunately the new pressure-treated 2x4 I got today was very straight, very un-knotty, and very green, so nailing into it was a breeze. 8) We ended at 4 p.m., both rather pooped. :roll: I thought briefly about getting back into it after dinner, but after four days working out there, I decided I needed some down time. The plan is for me to true up the three walls that currently exist. I'll use a temporary 2x6s across the top to tie the walls together, and I'll use a couple of blocks of 2x4 to temporarily fuse the outer leaf to the inner leaf). Then I'll frame up the north wall (the one with the doorway), tip it into place, and finalize the top plates. After that it will be time to work on the ceiling joists. Tomorrow I'm back at my "real job." :( :( :( (Actually, it will be a nice change of pace! Besides, I need time for my hammer-swinging arm to recover! :lol:) --Keith :mrgreen: P.S.: 100,000 views! :shock:

You mean 100 thousand views don't you Keith? (* note: he fixed it above!) And hey, are those bungee cords seismic-rated? Hmmm, I wonder if somehow a 'ligament' sort of thing, kinda like way-stronger bungee cords, might actually be good in earthquakes (allowing movement without collapsing shattering)?

100,000 views!

Luftweg wrote:

You mean 100 thousand views don't you Keith?

Duh... Yeah... I fixed that! :lol: haha! :lol: Now, kids, don't try this at home. Those bungee chords are TEMPORARY! :P --Keith :mrgreen:

Hi Sharward, congrats on your continuous progress. Slow but steady wins the race! Kudos to your craftsmanship, too, everything looks like it is fitting together nice and tight. 8) Regarding splayed walls, you could always build something like John's Wall Units or an angled slot resonator, this would give you some of the benefit of splayed walls with your acoustic treatments. If it were me, I'd probably just do something like Superchunks along all corners (wall/ceiling too) and then some panels mounted on the wall to control flutter echoes. Lots of options there, both prefab and DIY. For a drum space you don't want to kill the room too much, some liveness would sound best most likely.

Thanks, jwl! If slow and steady wins the race, I'm winning a lot! ;-) I think your "superchunks in the corners and panels on the wall," coupled with my Stick-inspired clouds, will do the trick. To that end I'm already thinking of clever ways of permanently yet attractively marking the floor to show where the studs and ceiling joists are. :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

Why not just take lots of pics during construction showing locations of elements that will be 'hidden' after completion... This is obvious, but have actual measurements in the pics as well. Of course, marking is not a bad idea either (at least reference points), and maybe there is something that can be placed on the studs to 'enhance' a stud locator's effectiveness?

sharward wrote:

Thanks, jwl! If slow and steady wins the race, I'm winning a lot! ;-) I think your "superchunks in the corners and panels on the wall," coupled with my Stick-inspired clouds, will do the trick. To that end I'm already thinking of clever ways of permanently yet attractively marking the floor to show where the studs and ceiling joists are. :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen: