Expanding home studio into garage - questions and pix 'blog'

i'm looking for something to decouple areas where the two walls end up touching a common wall.

Once again, if you design it right, then decoupled walls CANNOT touch a common wall. If that happens, then you have a design flaw. "Decoupled" means just that. Not coupled. No connection. If two things that are "not coupled" are both touching something else, then they ARE coupled. The only way you can fully decouple two things is to remove all mechanical connections between them.

which are ... ?

Closing up an air gap between decoupled elements, so it looks neater? One way is to stretch a bit of acoustic cloth across the gap, and staple it on both sides. Another is to attach a wooden strip to one of the elements with a thin spacer behind it, such that it extends across the gap and in front of the element on the other side, but does not touch it. A third way is to wrap mineral wool or fiberglass in acoustic cloth, and line the gap with that. You can probably think of more. The point is that there are no mechanical connections. No flanking paths.

- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

... decoupled walls CANNOT touch a common wall. If that happens, then you have a design flaw. "Decoupled" means just that. Not coupled. No connection. If two things that are "not coupled" are both touching something else, then they ARE coupled. The only way you can fully decouple two things is to remove all mechanical connections between them.

ok, i think we're getting the idea on how to work the decoupling at all places (top & bottom plates, corners, etc.). but still one question. what about doors? i can decouple an entire iso booth, except where the door goes. are 2 doors absolutely required? or can you do a fully decoupled room including only one door? how? thanks! Matt

Hey Matt! Good to see that you are still moving ahead! Are you still on schedule for your Feb 1 first session?

what about doors? i can decouple an entire iso booth, except where the door goes. are 2 doors absolutely required? or can you do a fully decoupled room including only one door? how?

Well, you CAN do it with one door: Rod's "Superdoor", I think he calls it. But that is one massive monster of a door, with metal plates inside and three levels of seals, IIRC. Not easy to build. But it works. Otherwise, if you want good isolation, then the recommendation is usually two hefty back-to-back solid-core doors with two seals each, or two sets of sliding glass doors built the way John does them. But once again, it all depends on how much isolation you need. For a vocal booth that is only used when all else is relatively calm around about, then a well built single door MIGHT be enough. On the other hand, if you have Mr. Gorilla bashing out 115 dB on the drums, then even Rod's Superdoor would not have an easy time containing all that if you have a cranky baby trying to fall asleep on the other side.... Once again, it is a matter of the relative levels that you have / need. In any case, it makes no sense to build a door that is better than your walls: It will most likely be your weakest link, but it might not be, depending on how you are building those walls. What construction did you finally settle on, for doing your walls? Are you going the full hog, with seven layers of 5/8 sheetrock and GG on each side of double metal studs with an 8 inch air gap filled with rock wool, and a floated slab? Or are you going for a single layer of 1/4 inch sheetrock on each side of a 2x3 staggered stud wall with no insulation? :) Sorry to be hammering you on this, but you didn't post much in the way of details regarding your final plan, and you changed things along the way too, it seems, without mentioning too much about what you did! We are not clairvoyant, so unless you let us know what's going on, we can't see it like you can! If you would give more details of which doors you are talking about, and what your expectations are for them, then there might be someone here who can suggest the best way to accomplish that. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hey Matt! Good to see that you are still moving ahead! Are you still on schedule for your Feb 1 first session?

yup! so far so good!

what about doors? i can decouple an entire iso booth, except where the door goes. are 2 doors absolutely required? or can you do a fully decoupled room including only one door? how?

Soundman2020 wrote:

Well, you CAN do it with one door: Rod's "Superdoor", I think he calls it. But that is one massive monster of a door, with metal plates inside and three levels of seals, IIRC. Not easy to build. But it works. Otherwise, if you want good isolation, then the recommendation is usually two hefty back-to-back solid-core doors with two seals each, or two sets of sliding glass doors built the way John does them.

ok gotcha. well, i'm only doing single doors. i got solid core fiberglass with (sorry!) huge windows. only way control room can see into the iso booths.

Soundman2020 wrote:

But once again, it all depends on how much isolation you need. For a vocal booth that is only used when all else is relatively calm around about, then a well built single door MIGHT be enough. On the other hand, if you have Mr. Gorilla bashing out 115 dB on the drums, then even Rod's Superdoor would not have an easy time containing all that if you have a cranky baby trying to fall asleep on the other side.... Once again, it is a matter of the relative levels that you have / need.

right, gotcha. well, as i've said, i'm doing mostly bluegrass, so nothing very loud. my main goal, other than keeping the trucks going by (residential neighborhood) off my mics, is keeping the string bass off the mandolin mic, etc. you'll see, above, i just did a quick demo with mandolin, acoustic guitar, banjo and string bass in the same room, no baffles, basically as a test to see worst case. yes there was bleed, but surprisingly not unacceptable. so what i'm building (3 iso booths and a separate 'main' tracking room, all separate from the control room i used to track in) can only be an improvement.

Soundman2020 wrote:

What construction did you finally settle on, for doing your walls?

There is a bit of variety, but most walls are double. that is to say, double 5/8" rock with GG between, studs/r11, 2" air, studs/r11, then 2 5/8" rock with GG. as far as i can tell, that's the ultimate.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Sorry to be hammering you on this, but you didn't post much in the way of details regarding your final plan, and you changed things along the way too, it seems, without mentioning too much about what you did! We are not clairvoyant, so unless you let us know what's going on, we can't see it like you can!

good point. my bad. somehow i thought that info was up there somewhere. but yeah, this post is getting long! i'm glad. everyone's help has totally improved this project. thanks again! matt p.s. updated sketchup coming soon!

There is a bit of variety, but most walls are double. that is to say, double 5/8" rock with GG between, studs/r11, 2" air, studs/r11, then 2 5/8" rock with GG. as far as i can tell, that's the ultimate.

Yup, that should give you a good wall, if you build it carefully, seal it tight, and keep it decoupled! I'd really like to see your sound level meter readings once it is done!

well, i'm only doing single doors. i got solid core fiberglass with (sorry!) huge windows. only way control room can see into the iso booths.

I hope that glass is really thick laminate! And carefully sealed. Otherwise that will be your weak point. When you say "solid core fiberglass", do you mean that the door has a solid core, such as wood or metal, and has a fiberglass outer skin? Or do you mean that the door is the usual kind of door with thin plywood panels on a frame, and a rigid fiberglass core? I suspect you are talking about the later. If so, I have my doubts about those! Foam-core-door-with-glass is not going to be a good isolator. The glass might also be an issue in your booths, with regard to reflections. But unless it is thick laminate glass, its not going to help much for isolation, and might even end up giving you resonance problems. The resonant frequency of thin plate glass (the kind you normally get in doors) is going to be in the range where you don't want it for your kind of instruments, I think. If you can give us more details on the glass (thickness, type, etc.) then someone can probably calculate what those frequencies will be. I do recall reading some posts a while back from someone who had "ringing" resonance problems with the glass in his doors, and was asking for advice on how to damp that ringing. I don't recall if there was a solution or not. You might want to spend a few minutes searching for that thread here. How about a photo of your doors? If they are they way I think they are, then I'd really suggest that you re-think using only one. Also regarding doors: Don't forget that you do NOT want to drill large holes all the way through the door to mount through-the-door handles/locks. That compromises the acoustic isolation. Instead, use surface mounted hardware for handles and locks. Looking forward to new pics and SketchUp! "No pics means it didn't happen!" - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

well, i'm only doing single doors. i got solid core fiberglass with (sorry!) huge windows. only way control room can see into the iso booths.

I hope that glass is really thick laminate! And carefully sealed. Otherwise that will be your weak point. When you say "solid core fiberglass", do you mean that the door has a solid core, such as wood or metal, and has a fiberglass outer skin? Or do you mean that the door is the usual kind of door with thin plywood panels on a frame, and a rigid fiberglass core? I suspect you are talking about the later. If so, I have my doubts about those!

i think its' foam core and nope, glass isn't laminate. just couldn't afford it. yes weak point. i'm prepared to deal with it. the sound would have to go from one iso, out its door, into the main track room, thru another iso door, and get on that guy's mic.

Soundman2020 wrote:

If you can give us more details on the glass (thickness, type, etc.) then someone can probably calculate what those frequencies will be. I do recall reading some posts a while back from someone who had "ringing" resonance problems with the glass in his doors, and was asking for advice on how to damp that ringing. I don't recall if there was a solution or not.

door glass is a lost cause, but the control room and iso windows will be 1/2" and 9/16" with dbl wall thickness (about 11") between. parallel (no angle).

Soundman2020 wrote:

How about a photo of your doors?...Looking forward to new pics and SketchUp! "No pics means it didn't happen!"

[/quote] your wish is my command. see attached.

Soundman2020 wrote:

I do recall reading some posts a while back from someone who had "ringing" resonance problems with the glass in his doors, and was asking for advice on how to damp that ringing. I don't recall if there was a solution or not. You might want to spend a few minutes searching for that thread here.

yeah i found it. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4790&start=0 Only "answers" i could see are putting foam on it or a pillow. Seems like what i should do is build it and start using it and if i experience ringing just damp it with something (I'm thinking a little bead of spray foam or something). ideas?

Soundman2020 wrote:

Once again, if you design it right, then decoupled walls CANNOT touch a common wall. If that happens, then you have a design flaw. "Decoupled" means just that. Not coupled. No connection. If two things that are "not coupled" are both touching something else, then they ARE coupled. The only way you can fully decouple two things is to remove all mechanical connections between them.

Ok, so i've got the walls totally decoupled and MAN those little iso booths are wobbly! Now I'm about to sheetrock, and I'm guessing you'll tell me one sheet of rock should not cover the gap between the rooms? so, like, mice and picks and stuff can just go right into that 2" air gap forever, once complete? seems at least the sheetrock will hold the rooms together, no?

MAN those little iso booths are wobbly!

They shouldn't be wobbly, but if they are, then brace them! A single diagonal on a couple of the walls, let in to the studs if necessary, would do the trick. I wouldn't rely on sheetrock to do the bracing. You do have the ceiling joists on, don't you? How about some pics of the construction of those frames, so maybe a construction expert like Brien can figure out why they are wobbly, and what to do about it - Stuart -

take a look at the pics at the bottom of this thread, Matt: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11297&start=15 He has done it right. His inner leaf is not wobbly. Compare it to yours, and try to figure out why yours is. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

How about some pics of the construction of those frames, so maybe a construction expert like Brien can figure out why they are wobbly, and what to do about it

As always, your wish is my command ... see attached. :) Matt p.s. we start sheetrocking sunday!

I know this may be too late- I've been away from posting for a while. To "shore up" the walls (make them less wobbly), you could use a WIC clip. Rod's construction pics detail them, and here's a link as well: viewtopic.php?t=7449 Again, I realize this may be too little too late as you're talking about sheetrocking on Sunday.... My two cents.... Andy

snowdog99 wrote:

I know this may be too late...To "shore up" the walls (make them less wobbly), you could use a WIC clip. Rod's construction pics detail them, and here's a link as well: viewtopic.php?t=7449

Not at all! I truly appreciate any and all helpful comments such as yours! thank you! matt

Soundman2020 wrote:

so maybe a construction expert

Technician is the word. Or multicraft technician, either one will work for me. Seems like vertical plywood in the corners was mentioned several pages ago but since it was not used, then it must not be that much of a concern? The WIC clips is a good idea and had you took the few days asked of you to do, you would have already purchased and had them ready ;) And, iir, you also have Rods book...did you miss that part? Of course, the design is paramount. And these are issues you guys are dealing with because you have rushed into this project. The stability of the walls is high priority. Often of "grave" concern to those that want to live long enough to see the end of the studio build without the use of crutches or a wheelchair. God luck. edit: God luck is a typo...but I'm going to leave it.

Some encouragement for ya, Matt: It's looking good! I don't see your ceiling joists in the booths, though: Are they hidden above the insulation ("inside out" construction)? Or are they not in place yet? How's the deadline clock ticking, by the way? You seem to be moving pretty fast! Fast enough? - Stuart -

xSpace wrote:

Soundman2020 wrote:

Seems like vertical plywood in the corners was mentioned several pages ago but since it was not used, then it must not be that much of a concern?

Perhaps you mean the 45 degree corners in the SE, SW and NW corners? They aren't plywood but they're there. Maybe it's hard to see in the pix.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Some encouragement for ya, Matt: It's looking good!

Thanks, I really respond well to the carrot! ;)

Soundman2020 wrote:

I don't see your ceiling joists in the booths, though: Are they hidden above the insulation ("inside out" construction)? Or are they not in place yet?

Oh good call. My pix inadvertently failed to show them well. See attached, now. (I also attached a detail of a double wall).

Soundman2020 wrote:

How's the deadline clock ticking, by the way? You seem to be moving pretty fast! Fast enough?

So far so good. (Actually hiring) Sheetrock guy Sunday. Thanks for the concern! Matt

in pic "all iso's" it looks like the top plate is being shared over all 3 iso booths? "and I'm guessing you'll tell me one sheet of rock should not cover the gap between the rooms?" Right- NO physical connection

lilith_envy wrote:

in pic "all iso's" it looks like the top plate is being shared over all 3 iso booths?

nope, each room has its own set

got a little advice from another pro today. http://www.chips-davis.com/ has been designing acoustic spaces around here for many years. he said the odd angles/non-parallel walls was unnecessary, as are the 45 degree framed in 'corners'. said the whole thing is easily treatable after the rock and everything goes in. main thing is bass trapping the 90 degree or more corners and then putting in as much diffusing as possible as it will especially help bluegrass instruments. said to look at some pro diffusers like http://www.rpginc.com/ for ideas. soooo, i can't change the angled walls at this point, but i'm cutting out the 45 degree corners (NW, SW, SE) before sheetrock sunday. plan on putting the traps in the corners and DIY diffusers once the initial build is done. chips says it should be no problem to treat all the areas and have a great sounding, isolated space. matt

MatthewDudman, I'll tell you what I know up to this point. You came here with a fast tracked half backed idea of what you were going to do. And you were going to do it NOW, no planning, no care about the limitations of your surroundings or the lack of qualified technically SKILLED help. Everyone here tried to slow you down, get YOU to get a handle on the project to eliminate problems with qualified research and patience. You took off like a bat out of hell, half blind and the other eye closed. Whatever you have built, you did that with this forums help. Otherwise you wouldn't have the very little you currently have for someone else to look at. So if it is WRONG, it is because you did not understand what was being requested from you. Mr. Davis is respected for his work so why don't you invite him here to read your thread so he can get a better understanding of what kind of hard headed, caution to the wind, hacked up plan you developed. Thanks for your interest, but no thanks. People that do what you are doing give a black eye to the others here that have their own money and develop long term goals with realistic plans. Brien edit: Went over the top with the last line so took it out. Everything else stays. I am not angry...not even. I am disappointed in your suggesting that what you have done with limited knowledge and minimal skill is somehow a reflection on the aid you received here at johnlsayers.com. Your area will eventually work. Any body who is even at ground level in their build knows that a corner trap is part of the treatment, not part of the isolation. Non parallel walls is a common tool, not a mistake. I'm just saying. It takes time. And you didn't.

xSpace wrote:

MatthewDudman, I'll tell you what I know up to this point. You came here with a fast tracked half backed idea of what you were going to do. And you were going to do it NOW, no planning, no care about the limitations of your surroundings or the lack of qualified technically SKILLED help. Everyone here tried to slow you down, get YOU to get a handle on the project to eliminate problems with qualified research and patience. You took off like a bat out of hell, half blind and the other eye closed. Whatever you have built, you did that with this forums help. Otherwise you wouldn't have the very little you currently have for someone else to look at. So if it is WRONG, it is because you did not understand what was being requested from you. Mr. Davis is respected for his work so why don't you invite him here to read your thread so he can get a better understanding of what kind of hard headed, caution to the wind, hacked up plan you developed. Thanks for your interest, but no thanks. People that do what you are doing give a black eye to the others here that have their own money and develop long term goals with realistic plans. I pretty much had you figured as a trouble maker from the start. Thanks for not letting me down. Brien

ouch! did you take that personally? i certainly had no intent on attacking anyone personally, or any group. just relating what happened, as i have been doing. i think of this as a sharing experience. sorry i've angered you so. i do appreciate the help that i've gotten. stuart in particular has really been the best. i truly had no evil intent. i just have to get a job done on a schedule and want to do it the best possible within the parameters.

Hey Matt, I think it's just Brien's frustration at seeing you rush ahead unprepared, then consult an expert at the last minute, and post comments as though WE were somehow guilty for YOUR design faults! That is rather unfair, if you ask me! We kept on telling you not to start yet as you weren't anywhere near ready, and were about to make major blunders, yet now you accuse us of not telling you about minor details? That's kind of hard to swallow! You never even asked us about the layout and design of your rooms, and your first posts were diving headlong right into the construction, yet now you post a comment about how YOUR design of non-parallel walls is not necessary, YOUR design for bass trap frames across the corners is not optimum, and how it is somehow OUR fault that we didn't tell you that! ???? Huh? Well, to be honest, your non-parallel walls and bass trap frames were the absolute LEAST important of all the things you were doing wrong from the start!!! That's probably where Brien's comment is born from. You show little appreciation for the major gaffes we stopped you from committing, and then you complain that we didn't tell you about some minor issues? If everybody here would have made a laundry list of absolutely everything that we thought could have been improved, then we'd still be writing that list today! We pointed out the most important things you were doing wrong, and if I recall correctly, our number one piece of advice, repeated over and over and over and over, was to please STOP!, review the design carefully, think it through, plan, plan, plan, and only then build. But you were in too much of a hurry to do that, since you said you HAD to have it finished by next week, regardless of it works or not, since you have a group booked for tracking. I even suggested that it would be far better to just rent another space for tracking those guys, rather than rush ahead with an unplanned design. And now you are blaming us for your poor design? That stings. And quite frankly, I thought it was entirely uncalled for, especially considering our repeated advice to stop and rethink your plans. Non-parallel walls are not a big deal. They wont gain you much, but they won't hurt either. Flutter echo can be treated. Your 45 degree bass trap frames are overkill. You can use simple light weight frames for that. All they have to hold is cloth, after all! But once again, they won't do any HARM! These are MINOR issues compared with the huge mistakes you were going to make at the start. I think you don't even realize how bad your build would have been if you would have gone ahead without heading the advice we gave you. And you complain that nobody mentioned your angled walls and bass traps? Sheeesh! I'd call that "ungrateful", from my point of view! So I can't blame Brien for reacting the way he did. Especially when you call in another expert at the very last minute, and he tells you about the minor issues that you still have left, but never got to see the major pitfalls you very nearly fell into. It's kind of like you were planning to build an airplane, and we pointed out that you had the wings on backwards, the engine facing sideways, the tail upside down on the front instead of the back, and no fuel tanks! Yet now you come along and say "Hey, I just spoke to an aeronautical engineer, and he says that my tires are one size too big and the paint is the wrong color! I'm surprised you guys didn't tell me about that! You guys suck at this!". That's what it feels like. I don't blame Brien at all for seething. That's why I waited a day to respond: so I wouldn't go ballistic in writing like he did, even though I certainly empathize with his sentiments. - Stuart -

Ok, I’ve been thinking this post over, and have had lots of thoughts. But suffice it to say I don’t see this the same way as those commenting above. And apparently I’m not the first to sense some "attitude" (do a little search here for "jackass", for example!). I will share one story I received from a third party observer (yes, Brien, “Mr. Davis” and everyone i know was always invited to this post). This observer said that where he used to work there was a known ‘expert’ on photography. Folks would go to him for advice on equipment, artistic concepts, etc. Some of them went on to create wonderful photos. One day when the company went under and everyone got laid off, the ‘expert’ bought his first camera. ;) As for my project, it has moved along nicely with great results. A couple tips actually did come from this forum, (although the beating i had to take was hardly worth it). I’m ready to record my first band, coming in Saturday. We’ll continue to ‘finish’ the studio over the next months. If anyone out there (including Brien or Stuart, etc.) wants info about/pix/advice (minus the ridiculous attitude) regarding this studio build, I’m happy to share. But, one requirement from here on out: politeness and respect. Only. Period. Else I won't participate. Thanks and cheers to you all, Matt p.s. Don’t you think “we told you so” got a little old? ;) hee hee.

I'm glad to hear that it has turned out well for you. Did you fix the "wobbly" walls you mentioned? If so, what did you use? I'm sorry that this post de-evolved into a discussion of who is the bigger "jackass." Sometimes, on any bulletin board, and from any topic of discussion, one will get to a point in an argument where both sides dig their heels in, and the names start to fly. :( In this case we see a person with a deadline locking horns with a couple of people that follow the "tried-and-true methods" found throughout this board. Never a good combination. I can certainly see both sides of the coin here. The beating you took from all sides would make many afraid to post here at all. I know that I have re-thought posting my build here. Haven't done it yet. On the other side, some of the things you wrote could be easily mis-interpreted (which unfortunately happened). Brien and Stuart have both helped many people on this forum, myself included. I'm sure they'll continue to do so. I'm not trying to fan the flames, nor am I trying to get my post count up. I just wanted to re-build that goodwill that this board was created for. Now, can we all just hug a tree and get along? :lol: Kumbaya. Andy :shot: