Howdy folks, I'm starting construction this week on an expansion of my home studio from inside the house into the garage. I thought I'd post the progress and leave it open for discussion, questions, comments, suggestions, etc.
By way of background, I've been recording/mixing acoustic music (bluegrass, folk, country, etc.) in a room of my home for a couple years with good success, but now am converting the control/tracking room to just a control room, and expanding into the adjoining garage (22'x19'x8'), which will be used as a tracking room. Currently i was thinking that the tracking room should consist of a "main room" (about half), and 3 iso rooms (the other half).
My budget is APPROXIMATELY $5k and I hope to complete the project in just a couple months. I'm very lucky to have not only myself (construction ignorant) but also a couple of friends who are construction savvy, some of whom are also audio-savvy, to help out. I'm in Northern California, and I intend to use local suppliers (Lowe's, local businesses, etc.) as well as on-line sources. I am quite frugal, so I intend to try and get the best prices I can on supplies, etc., but I also value quality - especially sound separation (it's of utmost importance that, when tracking together, the string bass, for example, does not leak onto (e.g.) the acoustic guitar track, for mixing purposes. Not to mention I don't want the water heater/HVAC, and passing trucks, to get on the mics. (note that i'm not concerned that our music will disturb the neighbors).
I have read a reasonable amount of forums (including this one), blogs, etc. about the subject and printed out some the most relevant to me into a binder that the construction folks will reference. Of course I consider my situation somewhat unique (hence this post).
I’ve already started cleaning out the garage and fixing and sealing with spray foam the big garage door, and we will begin framing the new interior walls this Saturday. So this will surely be an imperfect process and I’m sure to stumble along the way. But I’ll do my best and hope you fine folks might chip in to help as I go.
I have sketchups and photos, etc. to share, and of course I welcome any and all comments, questions, etc. from you all. Lastly, I want to say that this is really fun for me and I’m having a great time and am very excited about it. I hope that you might share my enthusiasm and we all have a good time and learn something from this process!
Attached is an overhead pic from the current sketchup. (The actual sketchup file was apparently too big to attach.). The control room is to the top/north, and the garage door is to the south/bottom. To the right/east is a wall shared with the interior of the house, and on the left/west is an exterior wall to the outside.
Thanks and let’s have some fun!
Matt
Expanding home studio into garage - questions and pix 'blog'
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 11511.
"Of course I consider my situation somewhat unique (hence this post)."
Hi. I am not certain if you are asking questions or explaining in retrospect what you have done. The only thing unique about this build is you know more about it then we do. That is why folks ask for real pictures. :idea:
Spray foam...Great Stuff(tm)? :arrow: Doesn't have any protection from UV rays, has no density, actually has few uses outside of thermal around windows/doors/ small holes. Not a good component for isolation builds.
The problem with reading 50 hours or so is that the real information doesn't kick in until the 51st hour:) So if you are asking folks to help along the way, don't build it and say "hey what about this, my idea was too :blah: ". If we are to be part of your "team" we deserve to see the plan before you guys act on it. :yahoo:
I read 50 hours or so over the past two weeks:)
I and several others only have interest in the actual building. Several others here have focused attention in other areas, HVAC, electrical, etc. It's worth the wait to let the gang see it first. :horse:
So Merry Christmas, and good luck,
Brien
Only fifty hours? You are slowing down! Merry Christmas from your canadian friend. AndreI read 50 hours or so over the past two weeks:)
thanks for the response! i'm starting framing saturday, so nothing's done other than cleaning out the garage and fixing the door down. sorry for the confusion. i'd love some input!
i tried to attach real pix on the first post but it didn't accept them. i'll try again now.
thanks!
matt
Thank you so much Andre! And a Merry Christmas aw-ite from us red-necks @ Exit 4 to you! :) BrienOnly fifty hours? You are slowing down! Merry Christmas from your canadian friend. AndreI read 50 hours or so over the past two weeks:)
Hi Matthew, and welcome aboard. And Merry Christmas, too!
There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible. The announcement leads to this post. Actually, several people, who are experts on this forum, will not reply if you do not do what is written in the post. Many others who are very helpful, will not reply out of respect for the moderators' wishes.
I'm not trying to be a wet-blanket here, but frankly from your sketchup model and your comments, I don't see much planning at all for your build. You say that excellent isolation is paramount for your application, yet I don't see any MAM in your design. Without that, you just cannot get the isolation you say you need.
You also say that you have been "sealing with spray foam the big garage door", yet as xSpace pointed out, spray foam is next to useless for acoustic sealing: it is closed-cell, and therefore does nothing at all acoustically: It's a good THERMAL sealant, but a lousy ACOUSTIC sealant. So you might have a nice warm, weather-proof seal around your door, but acoustically it is still just as bad as it was before.
You also say that you have some "sound-savvy" and "construction-savvy" friends to help you, and that's great! Yet you didn't mention the most important friend of all, the one you absolutely cannot do without: the acoustics-savvy friend who has built many successful studios before, and who will be able to tell your construction-savvy friends why they probably need to forget most of what they think they know about building studios and were planning to do in your build. Then he can explain why they need to take lots of time to learn form the real studio construction experts here, so they can actually build your studio right the first time, so you won't waste your frugal US$ 5k.
And the same acoustics-savvy friend can also tell your sound-savvy friends why they probably need to re-think most of what they were planning, too, since "sound-savvy" and "acoustics-savvy" are not the same species. I'm pretty sound-savvy, and I thought I was amazingly acoustic-savvy too, until I came here and got my ego badly bruised all over the place, by the good folks here gently reminding me just how little I know all the time. OK, and not-so-gently, too! It goes with the territory. get used to it! :)
I'm trying to tell you, in a nice way, that it doesn't look like you are ready to build yet. You say you spent 50 hours reading, and you think you are ready to go. I spend about twice that per month reading about acoustics, sound and construction for my studio, and going on 15 weeks now. Roughly. Yet, the more I read the more I realize that I'm further away than ever from actually starting to build, because I realize that I don't yet know enough to do it properly. And I'm also very, very glad that I did NOT start when I planned, since I would have had to tear it all down again by now, and start over. I'm hoping you don't make the mistake that I almost made.
If you are planning to start framing two days from now, but you don't actually have a very carefully thought-out plan in place (and from your Sketchup model it certainly seems that you don't), then maybe you should not start framing until you do.
- Stuart -
I was wondering what was taking you so long Stuart!!!
Hey, it's Christmas, ya know! Doesn't that buy me a couple of hours? :) :lol: - Stuart -I was wondering what was taking you so long Stuart!!!
It certainly does!
hi folks, thanks for the input. sorry my posts haven't been up to your standards. i'm new at this and trying the best i can. i apologize if my etiquette is improper, and for not having researched as much as you experts. unfortunately, i have to spend most of my time actually making recordings, and not as much time reading/theorizing/discussing about it. i wish i could do more! :)
what i've written/shown you so far doesn't actually show everything we've thought about/planned. so that's my bad. hopefully as i progress the pix/posts will demonstrate that research. i've relied upon this forum, the homerecording.com, gearslutz, and recording.org ones, as well as various info posts such as this http://www.recordinginstitute.com/R2KREQ/cottage.htm.
for example, i'm doing double pane angled windows, solid core doors, etc. etc. i guess i just didn't know where to start. (the sketchup was intended more as a quick model to plan out the angles. not detailed info for construction).
as to the big garage door, i'm doing double walls against it, with double sheetrock, 2" spacing, etc. although the foam in the cracks won't keep any sound from coming, i was hoping the double walls would help. what are your thoughts?
thanks again for your wonderfully helpful and positive input.
matt
Hey Matt, don't sweat it! Folks tend to be a bit blunt and to-the-point here. If you can take the heat in here, then you can live in the Sahara without water, for weeks at a time, and consider it "comfortable"!
I'm no expert, believe me! But lots of folks here are, and you really should take their advise very seriously. And do yourself a HUGE favor: before you star building, buy Rod's book and read it from cover to cover. You'll be very glad you did.i'm new at this and trying the best i can. i apologize if my etiquette is improper, and for not having researched as much as you experts.
I think that' the case with most people here. That's why most of the construction threads here end up last for the best part of a year of more. Rushing is a really, really bad idea. Planning is a really, really good idea.i have to spend most of my time actually making recordings,
Why are you angling them? Some folks here would tell you that angling your windows will gain you nothing at all acoustically. There's a couple of other reasons that might be valid for angling, but acoustics ain't it!for example, i'm doing double pane angled windows,
Do you mean that you are going to build two walls, or that you are going to build a two-leaf MAM wall? Big difference!as to the big garage door, i'm doing double walls against it, with double sheetrock, 2" spacing, etc.
Only if you beef them up really well, and seal them air-tight. Many other people have exactly the same issue. Search the forum for "garage doors", and I bet you'll find plenty of reading material to keep you going for the next 50 hours or so, and get you on the right track. - Stuart -i was hoping the double walls would help.
Quote:
for example, i'm doing double pane angled windows,
Why are you angling them? Some folks here would tell you that angling your windows will gain you nothing at all acoustically. There's a couple of other reasons that might be valid for angling, but acoustics ain't it!
everything i've read says if you don't angle the windows they resonate together. here's a quote from http://www.recordinginstitute.com/R2KREQ/cottage.htm
"Angles. The two sheets of glass must be at an angle to each other else the two sheets will interact in a resonate sympathy and the sound reduction properties will be reduced. You can angle the glass as in the following drawing but don't forget that the glass can also be angled in the horizontal plane as well as the vertical plane. "
And attached are two pix from my model studio.
Quote:
as to the big garage door, i'm doing double walls against it, with double sheetrock, 2" spacing, etc.
Do you mean that you are going to build two walls, or that you are going to build a two-leaf MAM wall? Big difference!
2-leaf. is that better or worse?
thanks a bundle!
matt
I would unlearn most of what the linked page recommends. I would unlearn it only because it is presented in a way that says "do this" but gives no explanation...and most of it is either wrong or poorly documented. Here is the tricky part. Once you start looking into mass-air-mass which is a >requirement< to contain sound, you can lose focus. But I have a little bit of focus left :) Any existing exterior wall that has finished interior and exterior walls, like your garage, is mass-air-mass. Any thing that is framed up into this existing environment is a continuation of mass-air-mass. So your proposed framing is adding air-mass to an existing mass-air-mass. This is the type of construction you want to avoid. I know it "makes sense" but it is incorrect and has been tested in laboratories. What happens is you reduce the LF isolation, i.g. drums, bass, but anything that gets into the lower frequencies can get through. So let me get ahead of you: Three leaf ceiling, do it and die? This one is from Andre: "Here is a link to the document on triple leaf equations. http://www.box.net/shared/jcaoavdc8g " So, do you guys intend on cutting out the existing interior sheetrock?http://www.recordinginstitute.com/R2KREQ/cottage.htm. although the foam in the cracks won't keep any sound from coming, i was hoping the double walls would help. what are your thoughts? matt
Well, there you go! See what I mean? Lust like xSpace said, you can find plenty of places on the internet that repeat urban legends about building studios, but if they don't give you the sound scientific theory and good solid REASONS why they tell you to do something, then you you should turn and run, real fast. On the other hand, in this forum you'll find much, much more sound scientific reasoning for every recommendation made than you can handle! Seriously, this place is an absolute gold mine of solid science on acoustics, with numerous research papers to back it up, and world-class studio designers and acousticians who actually design and build studios for a living, and share their expertise with the rest of us for FREE! What more could you ask for? OK, case in point: Angled window glass. I just searched the forum, and came up with 158 hits for "glass angle", among them the following: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8593&p=60519&hilit=glass+angle#p60519everything i've read says if you don't angle the windows they resonate together. here's a quote from http://www.recordinginstitute.com/R2KREQ/cottage.htm "Angles. The two sheets of glass must be at an angle to each other else the two sheets will interact in a resonate sympathy and the sound reduction properties will be reduced. You can angle the glass as in the following drawing but don't forget that the glass can also be angled in the horizontal plane as well as the vertical plane. "
Now look at the name of the guy who posted that: Rod Gervais. He wrote the book on building studios. Literally: http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/1598630342/ So what other credentials does this guy have? Well, he also designs and builds movie sound stages, and Steven Spielberg once complimented him on how much he liked the acoustics of the sound stage that Rod built... When a guy like that talks, you should be listening. If he tells you that angling your glass is NOT going to help you acoustically, and in fact will REDUCE the isolation of your window, then I think I'd sit up and take notice, and investigate the matter a little further. The scientific reason for NOT angling your glass is that, in order to get the best possible isolation (which is what you said you must have) then you have to maximize the air gap between your two panes of glass. You want the two panes as far apart as possible. If you angle them, then you are not getting maximum distance between them. At the point where they are closest, you have minimum isolation. Bad idea, if you want maximum isolation. So what you SHOULD do, according to the experts here, is use two panes of different THICKNESS glass. The panes must be the right thickness that will give the same mass per square meter of your wall construction, roughly, and they must be LAMINATED glass, not plate glass or anything else. (If you want the "reason why" for only using laminated glass, and matching wall mass, then use the search feature. Yes, they are both very important recommendations, if you really do want maximized isolation). See? You learned something important very quickly here. If you had gone ahead and built your window with thin angled glass, you would have compromised your isolation severely. Aren't you glad you came here? Like xSpace said: Beware of all those places on the internet that give you advise without any science behind it. Especially if they have a product to sell you! Some more threads on glass and angles: viewtopic.php?t=3330&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4456&p=32716&hilit=glass+angle#p32716 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3343&p=23417&hilit=glass+angle#p23417 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2948&p=21181&hilit=glass+angle#p21181 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2673&p=20104&hilit=glass+angle#p20104 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2032&p=14643&hilit=glass+angle#p14643"I hate to be the one to tell you - but you really are mistaken.......... There is no acoustic benifit to angling the pieces of glass......... a visual benifit yes - but not acoustic. you gain the maximum isolation when the glass has the maximum air spring......... and that would be woth paralel panes. "
2 leaf is the ONLY way you want to build! Two and only two. Never one, never three (unless you want to spend a lot more money for worse isolation! :) ) But do be sure that it really is two-leaf: That means that you have one bunch of lots of mass attached to a set of studs, then a large air-gap that is filled with rock wool or fiberglass insulation, then another bunch of mass that is attached to another set of studs. Mass-Air-Mass. MAM. There must be no physical (mechanical) connection between your two "leaves". So, for example, if you have an existing wall with sheetrock on both sides of a single set of studs, then you need to rip off the sheetrock from one side of those studs, build another stud frame a couple of inches away, and screw sheetrock to the outside of that set of studs. With lots of rock wool packed in between. That is a two-leaf wall. That is how you maximize isolation. As xSpace mentioned, if you have ANOTHER leaf (such as by NOT removing the sheetrock from the inside of the original wall), then you have a 3-leaf wall, which contrary to popular belief will give you WORSE isolation at low frequencies. This is not intuitive, but is totally backed by masses of laboratory tests and theoretical work. 3-leaf will ALWAYS give you worse isolation than 2-leaf, all other factors being equal. Follow the links that xSpace gave you, or search the forum for "MAM" or "MSM" or "two leaf" or "3 leaf" or some such, and I guarantee you that you'll find more than enough research to keep you reading for your next quota of 50 hours... And yes, you absolutely DO want to spend the time to fully understand the two-leaf wall, BEFORE you start framing. Or else you will most likely NOT build it correctly, and then you WILL have isolation problems. Especially if you rely on your "construction-savvy" friends who probably have never heard of MAM, and don't have a clue as to why it is so very, very important. I strongly suggest that you do NOT start building until you get a really good grasp on two-leaf, three-leaf, MAM, flanking, TL, STC, and a whole bunch of other stuff that will kill your isolation if you don't get it right. Do you really want to spend your US$ 5k and not get every last penny's worth out of it? Can you afford to build it all without researching it, then find out that you have lousy isolation because you didn't understand the concepts of air springs, or flanking paths? Your call... - Stuart -2-leaf. is that better or worse?
You have two great people who have taken you under their wing. Congratulations.
Adding to a couple specifics mentioned, note myths 2,3 and 6 in Exposing Acoustical Myths. One of the advantages of home studio building is that much has already been done in the professional field, and is available on th net. That is why "How Not To" sums up things so well.
Andre
ok how about i start over.
the idea is to expand from my control room (to the top - north - of the sketchup still - see above) into the garage (also pictured above). garage is 22' long -north/south, 18.5' wide - east/west. the northern half of the garage has a sheetrocked 8' ceiling (floor to a bedroom), the southern half exposed beams (just the garage ceiling).
so, the northern wall of the garage is also the wall of the control room inside the house. the eastern wall is half connected to the house, and half exterior. the western wall is exterior. the southern 'wall' is the garage door (which i have sealed shut). the N, W, & E walls are all sheetrocked and insulated. there's a water heater and a/c unit in the NE corner, and washer and dryer in the NW corner (see photos above).
i'll need to regularly record several acoustic instruments (e.g. string bass, banjo) at once, with separation. in most cases the instruments can (should) be in separate rooms, but in some cases a 5 person band will want to record in the same room. all musicians should always be able to see each other and the engineer in the control room.
ROUGH $5-7k budget, not including labor (which will be essentially free).
questions? suggestions? etc.
should i start a new thread?
thanks!
matt
Ok, I think I’m getting the walls now. Dbl Rock then stud & wool then air then stud & wool then dbl rock. Per this: http://www.soundproofing101.com/soundproofing_3.htm I’m thinking caulk between the dbl rock and between the rock and studs. Agree? Also alternating the studs and splitting the bottom and top plates. Agree? :?:
If so, then here would be my plan. Keep the rough sketchup walls/angles indicated in my first post, above, and do the walls as follows:
West (exterior) wall . Remove inside rock, leaving exposed studs and (fluffy) fiberglass. One sheet of rock remains on the outside. Build new wall 2” from existing exterior wall. No rock on side of new wall that faces old wall, then alternating studs packed with mineral wool, then a sheet of ½” rock caulked to the studs and caulked to a sheet of 5/8” rock on the side facing into the tracking area.
Should look like somewhat this, except with caulk and no rc channel. http://www.mobtownstudios.com/wp-conten ... 90x290.jpg
In between A and D, here: http://rbdg.com/images/newsroom/expose1.gif
East wall (1/2 exterior, ½ connected to interior of house). Only need to use same method as west wall on the southern ½ where the iso booth is (i.e. NOT in the pantry area, where the wall can stay as-is).
South wall (big garage door). Question here :?: : can I use the door itself in place of a sheet of rock, then build a studwall with NO rock, then air, then studwall with dbl rock on the side facing into the studio? Or must I ignore the garage door and start with dbl rock against the door and go 2-leaf from there?
North (control room) wall. Same as west wall.
2 walls between the 3 iso booths. Build 2-leaf as above, except dbl rock on BOTH sides.
Interior wall separating pantry from large tracking room: This one I’m not sure. Would single stud with single rock work, since I don’t really need isolation from the pantry? :?:
Would love to get your input.
Then we’ll move on to my window and door issues. Then ceiling. :!:
Thanks!
Matt
Be careful in the demo process. When you are removing the existing sheetrock, remember that it can be used again. This is a significant savings to you, although it is a pain to do.
Good skills, steady hands, a sawzall with a short blade work here. You want to cut the rock in between the studs so as to just cut the entire piece out. You can then install this piece of sheet rock into that framing bay, beefing up your exterior leaf! As a point of interest, anytime I have done this, the joint area (48 inches up from the bottom of the sheet) will typically want to bend/break. You may not experience this issue. But, you could take a single 1X4 and run a few screws into it, maybe four screws from top to bottom spaced equally, to strongback the piece. If it becomes an issue, you could do that:)
Now that is good!
WARNING! There are electrical wires in this wall and you must be careful. Some walls may have plumbing, same thing applies. But the gained isolation is worth the effort, and the savings, well that will, hopefully, remain quiet:)
the silence is deafening! did i do something wrong again?
yanked the sheetrock off the western wall this morning. northern wall this afternoon.
still wondering if i can use the big garage door on the southern wall as my first "M" in the MAM plan for double southern wall. in other words, the southern wall would go insulated rollup garage door, studs and mineral wool, air, studs and mineral wool, two sheets of rock.
help, please! :)
thanks
matt
Silence? It was 4 hours between your posts. Some people are with their families etc. To expect quick responses from total strangers on a holiday, much less any time of the year is unrealistic at best. You have been given a polite direction to information needed to help you best. Read my signature line. If you want our help, you have to help yourself also. Redo your sketchup accurately and DO NOT put any components into it or even "try" them. Once put in, the component data remains in the file, even you remove the component later. You can then post it. The attachment was thrown together to show small the files are without components. Note it has the north wall up. It architectural norm to call up north. It fits in with your knowledge to have north, north. Your model shows five doors into or in the studio. Door acoustic seals are about $250 US per door. There is $1,250 US of your budget before taxes. Doors themselves if you make them yourself about the same. There is one half of your original 5k (US?) budget, You have three windows. Without knowing your wall construction, price 1/4" and 3/8" laminated glass per window. You are showing 4 spaces that end up being airtight. you will need quiet supply and return ventilation to each space. That can cost 2.5k. Read and re-read my signature line until it fully sinks in. The garage door itself is too thin to be of any value in isolation. You have not asked, however, move the dryer and washing machine into the room by the water heater. Three rooms across 17' with 6" thick walls makes each room an average of 5'8" wide. That is before room treatment which will be needed a lot of for rooms that small. I not trying to be rude, just straightforward and realistic. Andrethe silence is deafening! did i do something wrong again?
...........
hey cool thanks! been reading the gervais book. will look at the above attachment and work hard on doing everything right for you folks. sorry i'm aggravating everyone so much. guess i'm just a simple novice amongst giants. i do appreciate the help and kindness, though.
responses, thoughts, questions below.
sorry. to clarify, i don't expect quick responses. i'm just very excited about this fun project and love the feedback.To expect quick responses from total strangers on a holiday, much less any time of the year is unrealistic at best.
ok. working on it ...Redo your sketchup accurately and DO NOT put any components into it
i was thinking run air into the big, main tracking room only. there's a duct just inches from that room in the plan. the doors to the iso booths can be opened between takes.You are showing 4 spaces that end up being airtight. you will need quiet supply and return ventilation to each space.
yep i have. i figured that before i ever saw this particular forum. great advice. thanks.Read and re-read my signature line until it fully sinks in.
excellent. useful. thank you. we'll put sheet rock on both sides of the south wall (hope that doesn't make it 3 leaf!)The garage door itself is too thin to be of any value in isolation.
putting them in the 'pantry' is preferable but i'm told it's unreasonable due to plumbing issues. is their existence in the main room a major issue? thanks mattYou have not asked, however, move the dryer and washing machine into the room by the water heater.
We want you to have the best you can get. No one is aggravated.
Really wish you would follow these ideas:
viewtopic.php?t=3231
as it is important on a global level.
Canada, Chile, Australia, Belgium, US, UK, Greece, Hawaii, you pick a place and the studio building field has a representative here from some part of the globe!!!
I think I can speak for myself, no one asks much here except that what you do here in your build is because it is what you found here...tried and true :)
"yanked the sheetrock off the western wall" This makes me think that you are either not paying attention or do not care:)
read it and thought i had complied. can you be more specific? is it fair to assume the moderator has not chipped in because i have not complied? i swear i want to do this right; i'm not purposely being a jerk. maybe i'm just too dumb for all the intelligent experts here ...Really wish you would follow these ideas: viewtopic.php?t=3231
ha ha, sorry i guess my wording was misleading. (pic attached) For the record, i care about almost nothing in the world more than this project right now ... i swear this forum is hard to do! :) also, i was wondering how to reconcile this:"yanked the sheetrock off the western wall" This makes me think that you are either not paying attention or do not care:)
and this... You also say that you have been "sealing with spray foam the big garage door", yet as xSpace pointed out, spray foam is next to useless for acoustic sealing: it is closed-cell, and therefore does nothing at all acoustically: It's a good THERMAL sealant, but a lousy ACOUSTIC sealant. So you might have a nice warm, weather-proof seal around your door, but acoustically it is still just as bad as it was before.... -
if i need to put sheetrock on the garage door side of my new 2 leaf southern wall, who cares whether i acoustically seal the garage door? (also, no one suggested what would be better than the expando-foam. ideas?). thanks for the input, as always. mattThe garage door itself is too thin to be of any value in isolation.
Where geographically do you reside, update your profile so we don't have to keep going back to page one to figure out where in the world you are:0 The mods may or may not "chip" in, some are busier then a one legged man at a butt kicking contest! "maybe i'm just too dumb for all the intelligent experts here" It isn't that at all. We talk because we know something about what it is we are talking about. No one wants you to feel overwhelmed. On the other hand, some of us know what it takes to do what it is that you are doing. And it takes design, time, education, patience and a willingness to be flexible. There aren't many "internet experts" here. There are real live designer/developers with decades of design/build experience. I know I have learned a lot and unlearned just as much, and I also do not consider myself an expert:) I just know more than you know!! The search function here does work. If it does not produce what you think it should, then use the Advanced search function @ google.com and search within a site or domain: johnlsayers.comread it and thought i had complied. can you be more specific? is it fair to assume the moderator has not chipped in because i have not complied? i swear i want to do this right; i'm not purposely being a jerk. maybe i'm just too dumb for all the intelligent experts here ...