Expanding home studio into garage - questions and pix 'blog'

Soundman2020 wrote:

Did he even MENTION the silencers?

yep. but we decided against it. see below.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Opening the door to the booths may or may not be a workable solution: ...you need ventilation in your booths too, if you plan to use them for more than a couple of minutes at a time.

Right. as i said, we're following gervais advice and opening the doors between takes. the 30 second - 5 minutes recording moments are few and very short compared to the 'open door' opportunities.

Soundman2020 wrote:

... you have not thought out any place to put your silencers and ductwork, which are rather large. So either you have to tear something down and re-do it, or you have to use up some of the very small amount of space that you have available in those rooms.

Actually we have thought that out. Don't need it. No need to tear anything down or use up space. Just running a simple in/out to the main tracking room. in the even more infrequent times that someone is tracking in the big room and the air would make noise, we can turn the unit off. we bounced the alternatives back and forth and decided this is the best alternative, given the budget. any ideas on fixing any sound issues that presents?

Soundman2020 wrote:

How are you going to install recessed lighting in a sealed leaf?

good point. mea culpa. but as i said, we rethought that idea. it's looking like side wall lights. thanks for the input. i love hearing it and it helps the project. you folks are the best! i hope some day i can help improve somebody's studio. matt p.s. do any members have pix of their successful studio build, and/or sound samples? i'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to see/hear them.

p.s. do any members have pix of their successful studio build, and/or sound samples? i'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to see/hear them.

Yup! Plenty of those! Just look through the "Construction" area. Lou's build is a classic, but there are many, many others. Some recent, some old, some still in progress. Some not started yet (like mine!)

"Did he even MENTION the silencers?" Yep, but we decided against it. see below.

How can you not need silencers? There must be SOME point where you are bringing in fresh air from the "outside world", and SOME point where you are exhausting stale air to the "outside world". I cannot see how you "don't need" silencers on those. No silencers=no isolation!!!!! :!: How many 90 degree turns are you using in the ductwork, how long is the ductwork, what volume of airflow are you moving through the ductwork, and at what speed? How are you driving the air through it? How thick is the insulation on the inside of the duct? I'd really like to see those figures, since I suspect that your HVAC guy might not understand the issues here.

any ideas on fixing any sound issues that presents?

Yep! Plan for them in advance, so that they DON'T present!!!! :lol: Seriously, HVAC can be your weakest point of all. Think it through carefully: ventilation is literally a hole in your wall. And if you don't deal with it correctly, all of your hard work in isolating the room will be for nothing. Sound can and will move easily through normally installed HVAC duct. You need to do special stuff with studio HVAC, and it sounds like you are not doing it. HVAC issues are very easy to fix on paper before you start. Very hard (and expensive) to fix after it is already installed.

thanks for the input. i love hearing it and it helps the project.

Just consider us to be your "Jiminy Cricket"! :) That little voice telling you what you SHOULD do, even when it's not what you want to hear... :) - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

How can you not need silencers? There must be SOME point where you are bringing in fresh air from the "outside world", and SOME point where you are exhausting stale air to the "outside world".

well, the idea is to add tubes to and from the existing unit in the NE corner. yes that would make "holes". but how does that negatively affect the sound if the sound goes out from the instruments in the main tracking room (rare), thru the tubes toward the hvac unit. and if the unit is off during those rare times, no sounds will come out from it onto the instrument mics. right? by the way, the other current idea would be to just leave the gap at the bottom of the iso booth doors. when there's unacceptable bleed, we jam something (rubber?) in the gap. crazy?

Soundman2020 wrote:

any ideas on fixing any sound issues that presents?

... Plan for them in advance, ...if you don't deal with it correctly, all of your hard work in isolating the room will be for nothing. ...You need to do special stuff with studio HVAC, and it sounds like you are not doing it. ... HVAC issues are very easy to fix on paper before you start.

hmm, any more hints as to what that would be? no biggie, i'll read gervais, this forum, etc.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Just consider us to be your "Jiminy Cricket"! :) That little voice telling you what you SHOULD do, even when it's not what you want to hear... :)

Funny you should mention that, Stuart! that's EXACTLY how i've been feeling this last week! i love it! Learning is hard but fun and worth it! matt

but how does that negatively affect the sound if the sound goes out from the instruments in the main tracking room (rare), thru the tubes toward the hvac unit. and if the unit is off during those rare times, no sounds will come out from it onto the instrument mics. right?

Well, I would imagine that the main HVAC unit connects to the rest of the house, does it not? So if sound has an open, free, clear path from your studio to everywhere in the house, then why are you building a studio? - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

... if sound has an open, free, clear path from your studio to everywhere in the house, then why are you building a studio?

Good point! I'll research it. Any hints in the meantime?

Good point! I'll research it. Any hints in the meantime?

The ducting that connects your studio to the existing HVAC must be larger (in cross section) than you think it should be, it must be lined on the INSIDE (not the outside) with absorption acoustic duct liner (maybe even mineral wool or fiberglass would work? have to ask the HVAC experts here on that, etc.), it must be long, and it must have several 90 degree bends in it. You want low velocity, high volume airflow, not the other way around. And you will probably still want to put silencers in line with the ducting. Silencers are basically just very large, long boxes with several baffles in them, 100% lined inside with absorption. The purpose is not just to kill fan noise and airflow noise, but also to stop sound getting in and out of your room along the ducts. Search the forum for "silencer" and "HVAC" and I'm sure you'll find plenty to keep you busy. A couple that I found for you: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11410&p=82180&hilit=HVAC+silencer#p82180 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7433&hilit=HVAC+silencer&start=45 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1929&p=60300&hilit=HVAC+silencer#p60300 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1929&p=60221&hilit=HVAC+silencer#p60221 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4262&p=30547&hilit=hvac+silencer#p30547

MatthewDudman wrote:

Good point! I'll research it. Any hints in the meantime?

Your existing hvac has to be able to handle the additional floor space, it is one of many reasons you have to plan.

Soundman2020 wrote:

The ducting that connects your studio to the existing HVAC must be larger (in cross section) than you think it should be, it must be lined on the INSIDE (not the outside) with absorption acoustic duct liner (maybe even mineral wool or fiberglass would work? have to ask the HVAC experts here on that, etc.), it must be long, and it must have several 90 degree bends in it. You want low velocity, high volume airflow, not the other way around. And you will probably still want to put silencers in line with the ducting. Silencers are basically just very large, long boxes with several baffles in them, 100% lined inside with absorption. The purpose is not just to kill fan noise and airflow noise, but also to stop sound getting in and out of your room along the ducts. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11410&p=82180&hilit=HVAC+silencer#p82180 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7433&hilit=HVAC+silencer&start=45 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1929&p=60300&hilit=HVAC+silencer#p60300 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1929&p=60221&hilit=HVAC+silencer#p60221 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4262&p=30547&hilit=hvac+silencer#p30547

GREAT help, THANKS! been reading the threads and Gervais. planning on putting in as many 90 degree angles as practical, but not sure how to handle the silencers, and don't understand how you could put fiberglass insulation INSIDE the ducts (cough, cough). oh well, more research i guess! :) Today my buddy the plumber successfully moved the washer&dryer into the pantry area! yeah! Also we got the north walls pretty much framed, with space for control room window and control room/tracking room access door. pic attached. gonna look into laminated glass prices monday. tomorrow my buddy the electrician will give us his ideas on wiring the place. thanks for all your tips, folks! matt p.s. did a demo last night in the control room. didn't use any gobos, just stood in the corners, and got surprisingly good separation. this new tracking room is gonna make things SO great! p.p.s. i know my posts are not up to many folks' on this forum's standards, so extra thanks to those who are staying interested and continuing to hang in and help me.

Your buddy the carpenter should be using 2X12 material for headers. It's typical, minimum 2X10 depending on if it is perimeter or there is an upstairs area or not. And judging from the look of the in wall vacuum, you have an upstairs:) Stay safe guys, Brien

xSpace wrote:

Your buddy the carpenter should be using 2X12 material for headers. It's typical, minimum 2X10 depending on if it is perimeter or there is an upstairs area or not. And judging from the look of the in wall vacuum, you have an upstairs:)

yep, there is an upstairs there. but are you assuming we're putting sheetrock on the ceiling?

MatthewDudman wrote:

yep, there is an upstairs there. but are you assuming we're putting sheetrock on the ceiling?

I am assuming that the wall you guys are modifying in the above picture is a load bearing wall with joist crossing over the top of it.

by the way, i am really getting a LOT out of the green glue website. concise, easy to understand "how-to" info on walls, ceilings and floors. really better than anywhere else. but here's one statement i'd like others' reaction to: "Often it is thought that using denser insulation is the cure-all to sound problems. But this simply isn’t the case. In general, it is preferable to use standard building type insulations (i.e., normal fiberglass) and it is never desirable to utilize expensive, very dense insulations, as in addition to the expense, they tend to make low frequency performance worse by raising resonance frequencies." from http://www.greengluecompany.com/insulat ... onWall.php should i really ditch the mineral wool i've been using in the walls, in favor of little ole r13? thanks!

MatthewDudman wrote:

should i really ditch the mineral wool i've been using in the walls, in favor of little ole r13?

Don't bother ditching what you have. It may be possible to return it and get cheaper material to save money. If you buy any more for that application, get the cheaper material. Or if you have not bought all the insulation you will use and can store stuff, save the expensive for use in absorbers etc.

CMHC Technical Series 02-108 wrote:

Generally, at low frequencies, the increase in the transmission loss of a partition obtained by adding a sound absorptive material inside its cavity is equivalent regardless of the material used. Above 250 Hz, mineral fiber and blown cellulose give the best results; mineral fiber insulation provides slightly better transmission losses than glass fiber, especially around the critical frequency. Also, in the case of glass fiber, a greater transmission loss can be achieved by using denser batts.

The above document is based on analysis or NRC IR 761. For more analysis have a look at USG Density report attached, paying particular attention to the low frequencies in Table 1. Note to others: An acoustics professional will save you money by knowing what to buy and not follow net myths. Andre

AVare wrote:

Don't bother ditching what you have [of mineral wool]. It may be possible to return it and get cheaper material to save money. If you buy any more for that application, get the cheaper material. Or if you have not bought all the insulation you will use and can store stuff, save the expensive for use in absorbers etc.

CMHC Technical Series 02-108 wrote:

Generally, at low frequencies, the increase in the transmission loss of a partition obtained by adding a sound absorptive material inside its cavity is equivalent regardless of the material used. Above 250 Hz, mineral fiber and blown cellulose give the best results; mineral fiber insulation provides slightly better transmission losses than glass fiber, especially around the critical frequency. Also, in the case of glass fiber, a greater transmission loss can be achieved by using denser batts.

ummm, what am i missing? seems like andre's saying no need for mineral wool (other than absorbers, later), but the CMHC thing says it's better ... still wondering what to put in the walls ... ? thanks matt

MatthewDudman wrote:

CMHC Technical Series 02-108 wrote:

Generally, at low frequencies, the increase in the transmission loss of a partition obtained by adding a sound absorptive material inside its cavity is equivalent regardless of the material used. Above 250 Hz, mineral fiber and blown cellulose give the best results; mineral fiber insulation provides slightly better transmission losses than glass fiber, especially around the critical frequency. Also, in the case of glass fiber, a greater transmission loss can be achieved by using denser batts.

ummm, what am i missing? seems like andre's saying no need for mineral wool (other than absorbers, later), but the CMHC think says it's better ... still wondering what to put in the walls ... ?

My bolding. Walls for music isolation are built for low frequencies. If you have enough low end isolation, the higher frequencies are automatically isolated enough. Not mentioned in the CMHC report is that there was significant difference in density and gas flow resistance. that is caused the difference in performance. Not the physical type of material in and of itself. Andre edited to include my comments.

ummm, what am i missing? seems like andre's saying no need for mineral wool

I don't see Andre saying that at all! Maybe you mis-read what he said?

Soundman2020 wrote:

ummm, what am i missing? seems like andre's saying no need for mineral wool

I don't see Andre saying that at all! Maybe you mis-read what he said?

man, i am LOST. maybe i did misread! as far as i can see, no one is saying use mineral wool. everyone is saying use 'normal' fiberglass insulation (such as r13). see below: 1) "Generally, at low frequencies, the increase in the transmission loss of a partition obtained by adding a sound absorptive material inside its cavity is equivalent regardless of the material used." CMHC Technical Series 02-108 2) "Don't bother ditching what you have. It may be possible to return it and get cheaper material to save money. If you buy any more for that application, get the cheaper material. Or if you have not bought all the insulation you will use and can store stuff, save the expensive for use in absorbers etc." Andre 3) http://www.greengluecompany.com/insulat ... onWall.php So it seems fair to conclude i should take out the wool and put in r13. anyone disagree? thanks matt

There is no advantage, or disadvantage to using expensive insulation in walls. R13 will do fine for you. I was referring to unused material. R13 is a designation based on the heat insulation value of the material. Both Fiberglas and mineral wool come in "R13." So, do you get Fiberglas or mineral wool? Get whichever one is cheaper! Continuing with what to get, if you can get SAFB or some other denser material at a good price, get that. The difference is not significant between them for studio applications in walls. Andre

ok, back in the game here. last saturday finished framing the north wall, which included space for a 4'x3' control room window (planning 1/2" and 3/8" glass, as far apart as possible, although still considering angle to deflect reflections and sound), and for the (solid core) door. (pic of north wall above and at download/file.php?id=26031&mode=view). plumber moved washer and dryer into pantry (which cost me about 6" off off the north wall of the SE iso booth). pic of east wall where w/d will go attached. Speaking of doors, yesterday the 4 prehung solid core doors arrived. 3 fiberglass doors with (gulp) very large double paned windows for only vision into control room (yes, i expect to take a beating about this) for the iso booths, and one wooden door for the control room (north wall). Been reading, researching, pricing, planning constantly since last post. ate up the greenglue website, and delving deeply into Gervais. bought 2 cases of green glue and returned the mineral wool (will get r13 fluffy for 24" centers when it's time). tomorrow is another big work day. hoping to complete all wall framing. reading up tonight to make sure we make them correctly. currently planning 2 leaf between the iso booths and split/alternating stud walls on front of iso booths (where doors aren't) and pantry walls (for staggered walls, see above or at download/file.php?id=25967&mode=view). sunday will be electrician day (got 250' of 12-2 romex and 13 single gang plastic electrical boxes in preparation). as always, i welcome your input, folks! thanks, matt

ok i don't know if anyone is still on board, but i have a question. i understand the 2 leaf (2 stud/double) wall system, and have employed it as much as possible. but none of us can figure out how that is supposed to work up top, at the top plate. are there separate top plates? if so, it seems there is nothing to keep the walls from tipping from side to side. how do you finally stabilize a fully decoupled double wall? another version of the above question is what is recommended if you run into a situation where separated/decoupled elements need to join? we've been putting in there the spongy thin styrofoam type material used under parquet floors. but maybe silicone or green glue or felt would help? is it really possible to keep things totally decoupled forever? what happens at the top and bottom? how do the walls (or whatever items) keep from flopping over? thanks matt

MatthewDudman wrote:

ok i don't know if anyone is still on board,

Hey Matt! Yup! I'm still up. Night owl. That's me. Maybe I can help...

but i have a question. i understand the 2 leaf (2 stud/double) wall system, and have employed it as much as possible.

Excellent! But I do hope that "as much as possible" actually means "totally, 100%". If not, then you might have wasted your efforts....

but none of us can figure out how that is supposed to work up top, at the top plate. are there separate top plates?

Yep!!!

if so, it seems there is nothing to keep the walls from tipping from side to side. how do you finally stabilize a fully decoupled double wall?

You build the wall next to it at right-angles, and the ceiling on top of it! Exactly like for a normal house: the walls support each other at the corners. The ceiling helps, too. Think about it. The wall that runs north-south is supported by the wall the runs east-west, at the corner, and vice-versa. Two walls that intersect cannot fall over. Each supports the other. Each wall keeps the other from falling over. When you have all four walls up, none of them can "fall over" because each one is supported at both ends, and then the ceiling on top ties them all to together firmly, so they can't even wobble. It is exactly the same construction that you use for building a house normally! No different at all. If you know how to build the frame around a house and put the ceiling on, then you know hoe to build another identical one, scaled down to be a bit smaller, inside of the first one. "Room within a room". That is what you are doing.

another version of the above question is what is recommended if you run into a situation where separated/decoupled elements need to join?

That cannot happen. They should never need to join. If you designed it right, of course. If it is designed correctly, then it is impossible that you need to join "decoupled" elements. If you did, then they will not be decoupled! If you are running into a situation where you think you need to join them, then you did not design it right! It's that simple.

we've been putting in there the spongy thin styrofoam

What???? Styrofoam? that won't help at all! Its a good thermal insulator, but a lousy acoustic insulator. Styrofoam is closed-cell. Acoustically useless. And once again, if you are joining things that are supposed to be decoupled, the you are wasting your time and money. Why bother?

But maybe silicone or green glue or felt would help?

Nope. Nothing will help, because you should not be in that situation! You might need to SEAL a gap between two decoupled elements, and there are ways of doing that, but you cannot possible ever need to JOIN to decoupled elements, if you designed it right. You might also need to brace things temporarily, while you get other things in place to hold them up, but them you REMOVE the bracing. Like for example after you lift the first inner-wall into place, you may well need to brace it against the outer wall, with bits ot 2x4 nailed in temporarily. But once you get the SECOND wall in place and correctly tied to first one, then you remove the bracing.

is it really possible to keep things totally decoupled forever?

Yep: the way to do that is to take the time to design it right in the first place! That way, you won't have to wast time and money ripping things apart after you notice that you did it wrong. Sorry to be so harsh, but we did warn you up front to take the time to think it through carefully... I'm not gloating: just reminding you to be careful, think things through. Stop. Look. Backtrack. Rethink. Undo whatever it is that caused you to join decoupled elements. hopefully, it is not too late. Jiminy cricket here!!!! :)

what happens at the top and bottom? how do the walls (or whatever items) keep from flopping over?

Build another wall at right angles to it! It's that simple. Same as building the outside walls of a house: the corners keep them from flopping over, and the ceiling adds stiffness and rigidity to the structure. The only difference is that you don't put a roof on top of your inner leaf, but apart from that it is built in the identical manner of building the outer leaf.

thanks matt

You are welcome! How about some more photos? You know what they say here: If there are no photos, then it never happened!!!! :) Besides, if you post photos then folks here might be able spot issues that you didn't notice, before they become major disasters. - "Jiminy" Stuart -

"It is exactly the same construction that you use for building a house normally! No different at all." The corners do keep the framed wall standing upright, but it isn't what stops the walls from racking or collapsing. This is usually done by installing 4X8 sheets of plywood stood vertically on each wall that makes up a corner. You may also use a 1X4 diagonal brace cut into the framed wall. In residential construction, joists make the framed walls move as one but do nothing beyond that to add any rigidity to the structure that is missing from the walls to start with. They are used to keep walls from bowing outward from the weight of a roof and to install interior room finishes to. There are some differences as you can see, and that may be of some use hopefully.

Soundman2020 wrote:

How about some more photos? You know what they say here: If there are no photos, then it never happened!!!! :) Besides, if you post photos then folks here might be able spot issues that you didn't notice, before they become major disasters. - "Jiminy" Stuart -

see attached :) matt p.s. i've got chips davis on the task as of tonight. i'm hopin' that'll help!

oops, forgot the western wall. here ya go, attached!

Soundman2020 wrote:

MatthewDudman wrote:

we've been putting in there the spongy thin styrofoam

What???? Styrofoam? that won't help at all! Its a good thermal insulator, but a lousy acoustic insulator. Styrofoam is closed-cell. Acoustically useless. And once again, if you are joining things that are supposed to be decoupled, the you are wasting your time and money. Why bother?

um, not sure if we're on the same page. i'm not looking for acoustic insulation here. i'm looking for something to decouple areas where the two walls end up touching a common wall. seems polyethylene would decouple nicely. http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00018076

But maybe silicone or green glue or felt would help?

Soundman2020 wrote:

... You might need to SEAL a gap between two decoupled elements, and there are ways of doing that, ...

which are ... ? thanks! matt