bcarr's basement studio in process

Hi guys, I am finally getting to the construction phase on my basement home studio. You can look at the planning process in the studio design section at this link. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= This space will mainly be used as a my project studio but I will record other people on occasion. Mainly I play jazz music and on occasion I will record worship music for the church that I go to. In other words the music that I am going to record in not terribly loud. I would like isolation from the upstairs (I don't want to bother my wife and kids and I also don't want to hear their foot steps above my head). My house is somewhat close to another house but the room that will be on that side is a room that I will mainly track vocals or other quieter things in. The other houses are a little farther away. I have added some sky views so you get a better idea. The house is about 12 years old and right now the floor above the basement has 16" O.C. Joists that span a maximum of 13' in Studio 1 and at the back of the Control Room and in Studio 2 the joists span 14'. I don't know what kind of wood the joists are but I have taken a picture of it and I am going to post it. Above the joists is typical plywood and about that is 3/4" solid oak flooring. Right now I am planning on putting 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on RC-1 on the ceiling and stuffing insulation up there as well. Question: Do you think I need to add more mass under the 1st floor's plywood? I would really like to avoid it if possible because there are many ducts up there and I have the staples sticking through the plywood from the oak flooring that was put in on the first floor. If I need to add more mass will my floor joists hold it? Question: On this site I have seen people support the top of their walls in many ways. Some just nail the top of the walls to the floor joists, some make their own brackets with neoprene pads that keep the walls and the upper floor joist isolated and some use manufactured brackets. Somewhere in Rods book he shows a detail where the top of the wall gets attached to an RC. Will I loose a lot of isolation if I just nail the top of the walls to the 1st floor joists? The only think I have done up to now is: 1. Read this forum (for over a year) 2. I have been reading Rod's book 3. I have the drawings ready and I am submitting them to the city for a building permit 4. I had an HVAC company come over and re-route my main heating ducts because they went through the center of all 3 rooms that I wanted to build. Now they are moved to the sides of the rooms and into what will be hallways. 5. I isolated all my water, drainage and gas pipes so they don't vibrate into the structure of the house. I used pipe insulation and it seems to be working well right now. 6. I am getting quotes for the electrical work Budget: Right now I only have about $12,000 for the project. I may have to build it in phases as I get more money and time. So far, the HVAC portion cost me $2,200. The one quote I got for Electrical was $4,600, I still need to get more electrical quotes because I don't know if that is an unreasonably high quote or not. I am planning on doing the framing, drywall and everything other than HVAC and electrical myself. Construction: I am planning on using wood studs for the framing. I also plan on using 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on all the ceilings and the walls. On the ceiling I also plan on using RC-1. Thanks in advance for your help and support through this project. Brian

Some more photos

Ok, here is some more information. The the basement ducts are all done with flex ducts and each send and return go all the way to the furnace instead of connecting to the rest of the houses trunk lines. The only exception is the two supply vents in studio 1. These two ducts are so far away from the furnace that I had to tie into the main trunk after a 25ft flex duct run on one and a 50 foot flex duct run on the other. A couple of the return ducts tie into the first couple of feet of the main return trunk line as well. My hope is that this would reduce the noise from the studio going to the rest of the house as well as reduce the noise from one of the studio rooms to any of the other studio rooms. I know flex duct is not always recommended due to the fact that it gets crimped in places and that speeds up the air flow. I wanted to use a separate trunk line for the basement that was made out of insulated duct board but none of the contractors would use it. One of the contractors told me that our city does not allow duct board. I guess this is my compromise. The only benefit is that since this is the basement I can keep the dampers (that are located at the beginning of the run) partially closed because it should not need as much heating or cooling as the rest of the house. Maybe that will slow down the air anyway. I have also included some construction details that I did not include in my other posts.

Sorry, I forgot to add the other images. Here they are.

Hey guys, I know everyone one is busy but can someone please respond to some of my questions? I have come up with another question as well. I have a place where I'm not sure how to support a wall because it butts right up under an I-Beam. Do I try to tie it into the I-Beam somehow (bolts, or glue) or will a WIC clip that attaches it to the current wall next to it be enough. It gets trickier because I also need to box in some ducts that run right next to the I-Beam. Can you look at my diagram and tell me if the WIC clip will be enough? Thanks in advance.

I have another question. Instead of the double sliding glass doors between the control room and studio 1 I was considering putting 2 sets of French Doors. It would look a lot nicer. Does anyone have any experience with French doors and how well they do with isolation? I assume they would be a lot harder to get a good seal with especially where the two doors meet up with each other.

Greetings bcarr & welcome! It's pretty amazing the similarities between your HVAC routing & mine. Like you, I play Jazz and will mainly be recording Christian/Gospel music. Like you, I need isolation from the upstairs especially in the lower frequency area. There are other similarities, but you get my drift. I'm not sure when you plan to start building, but I am beginning my "prep" work this week. (Prep=cleaning out the studio area, begin caulking the existing existing drywall-stud cavities, checking my HVAC duct to make sure all elbows are sealed correctly & using the proper duct tape in taping duct connections that don't look properly sealed etc etc). If it will be a month or so before you start, keep an eye out for my thread so you can BYPASS the mistakes I might make! :lol: Because our basements are similar and the routings of HVAC are somewhat similar you can watch & see what responses I get to questions to help guide you. It will be interesting to watch your progress as you can watch mine. It looks to me like you've done some good homework setting your drawn plans. That being said, I'll try to answer some of your questions. Now, take into consideration I'm trying to get "through this" just as you :wink:

Question: Do you think I need to add more mass under the 1st floor's plywood? I would really like to avoid it if possible because there are many ducts up there and I have the staples sticking through the plywood from the oak flooring that was put in on the first floor. If I need to add more mass will my floor joists hold it?

If you want to reduce the lower frequencies from passing through to the upstairs the answer is a SOLID YES. You mentioned you wouldn't be playing your music very loud but how loud is that? Steve rcommends not listening to music above 85db. How close do you come to that? Might not be a bad investment in a Sound Level Meter (Radio Shack makes an inexpensive one. It starts at 50db though. You'll probably need one later anyway) Here's a link to the meter: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... age=search) You could get an approximate idea how loud you listen to music and post a question on here as to if you would need a "beefed up ceiling" based on the level you're comfortable listening at. If you don't already know, a "beefed up ceiling" is simply adding drywall to your existing subfloor. BEFORE you do that you definately need to get a structural engineer to approve the added weight on your subfloor. I "feel your pain" about having to add "beef" to your ceiling, but for me it wasn't a second thought. It HAD to be done because when you start crankin' the ol' speakers up, that bass WILL travel! Another thing is, if you do decide to beef your ceiling and get approval from a structural engineer, be SURE to tell them EXACTLY how you plan to do it, (how you will secure it to your subfloor, how many sheets of drywall etc) and if your ceiling JOIST can handle the weight of Resilient Channel and (however many sheets) of drywall you will put on it. These are 2 DIFFERENT evaluations they will have to make. (One for the subfloor additional weight and one for the ceiling joist weight) Also, be SURE to get a copy from their firm with a letterhead stating their evaluation and their findings (legal proof for you...just in case... :roll: ) Here's some additional help below...(One thing about posts on here...be sure to look at the DATES of the posts. Some posts listed in 2003 have additional/updated info AFTER 2003, even up to 2007) http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3726 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2322 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=195 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#43861 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=405

Question: On this site I have seen people support the top of their walls in many ways. Some just nail the top of the walls to the floor joists, some make their own brackets with neoprene pads that keep the walls and the upper floor joist isolated and some use manufactured brackets. Somewhere in Rods book he shows a detail where the top of the wall gets attached to an RC. Will I loose a lot of isolation if I just nail the top of the walls to the 1st floor joists?

I have seen on here where it's recommended that walls be decoupled from the ceiling. You've already shown the use of the WIC clips, so you must be familiar with them. I don't know about loosing "isolation" persay, but I figure you would encounter a flanking "pathway" for noise by wedging the frame to the ceiling and nailing it Here's some info that "may" help answer that question (and a few others you may not have thought about yet)... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7449 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=210 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 1b6835c78c http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#38635 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ight=nails http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#58672 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download.php?id=7991

I have come up with another question as well. I have a place where I'm not sure how to support a wall because it butts right up under an I-Beam. Do I try to tie it into the I-Beam somehow (bolts, or glue) or will a WIC clip that attaches it to the current wall next to it be enough. It gets trickier because I also need to box in some ducts that run right next to the I-Beam. Can you look at my diagram and tell me if the WIC clip will be enough?

This one I'm not sure about. Off the top of my head I would say NOT to tie it to the I-beam. I would think the "ringing" that would come from that steel beam would be TERRIBLE for attatching it to a frame (vibrations-n'-all)...but that's just my opinion... Also, I'm not sure if code would allow you to cut into a support beam like you may need to (If that's how you're planning to mount the frame/WIC clip etc) If I were you, I would ask the question in a seperate post. In the meantime, I'm not sure this will help, but in Rod's book on page 248 & 249 he mentions the use of 2 sheets of a double 3/4" plywood support. Check that out and Leecow's nice sketchup diagram for the plywood support Rod was talking about. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7449

I have another question. Instead of the double sliding glass doors between the control room and studio 1 I was considering putting 2 sets of French Doors. It would look a lot nicer. Does anyone have any experience with French doors and how well they do with isolation? I assume they would be a lot harder to get a good seal with especially where the two doors meet up with each other.

I plan to use French doors between my control room and my vocal booth. Each door will be in it's own wall though (I'm doing a double wall) Looking at those doors...yea, I'd say you will have a heck of a time isolationg travelling sound BETWEEN the two doors. Maybe another post is in order for this question also, but I would be surprised if anyone says this is a good way to go. Below is a link to consider about French Doors & glass. I won't be building mine, and as far as the type of glass...I'll have to do the best I can within my budget. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#47641 Another thing...I'm checking into a "silencer" between my HVAC trunk (supply) and my vent in each room. Like you, I had to tie into my main trunk which, from reading on here is NOT the way to do it if you can help it. I've seen post where they build large silencer boxes to help reduce noise going between HVAC duct lines/air handlers. I don't have that much room to do one of those "boxes", so today I put up a post asking about it. Check it out. I'm not sure all this will help any, and hopefully someone else will come in to give their opinions also... Many Blessings on your studio & it's progress!

Hey Stan, thanks for your reply! It's nice to see another jazz guy that records Christian music around. Anyway, I think I am about 2-3 weeks away from starting my construction. I should get my building permit in a week or two. Mine will go slowly since I will be doing most of it myself and I have a family that I still like to spend time with and a full time job. I am looking forward to your thread. Hopefully (for my sake) you will always be one step ahead of me. I think I will try my luck at beefing up the subfloor but I know there are a lot of pipes and ducts in my way right now. Thanks for the links. As far as the walls I'm sure WISC clips are the way to go I just was hoping for an easier way out. Who well no pain no gain. If you find a good lead on French Doors let me know. I guess I can stay with the sliding glass doors that are in my plan now but I'm afraid of getting cheep ones that ring or don't isolate very well. Thanks again for your replies.

I just learned that my city’s code will not allow Flex Duct if it’s in an area that you can’t access. Since I’m going to drywall everything then all the Flex Duct must come out. I wish I knew this earlier. Lesson learned, don’t push ahead before your building permit arrives. It’s going to take 2 days to change all the Flex Duct to normal duct and I’m sure I will loose a lot of isolation. I wish there was a way to get more isolation but the city does not allow duct board either. I will take some pictures when it’s done. Once it’s done I can start framing.

Wow! Man that's a bummer having to take all that flexduct out. Looks like you had it all set up in your pics. No ductboard either?? WOW! That's code though... As far as the french doors, I'll be having a single french door in each wall. I'll just be purchasing standard french doors. I can't afford anything that's "special made" so hopefully the sound isolation will be ok. I figure with "2" doors that are sealed up properly isolation should be adequate. I (once again) got delayed from my "Drywall-Beef" party. Now, (if all goes right) I'll be doing that on April 28th. Not sure if you'll be starting before or after this date. Hey, you might even beat ME getting started!

bcarr wrote:

I just learned that my city’s code will not allow Flex Duct if it’s in an area that you can’t access. Since I’m going to drywall everything then all the Flex Duct must come out. I wish I knew this earlier. Lesson learned, don’t push ahead before your building permit arrives. It’s going to take 2 days to change all the Flex Duct to normal duct and I’m sure I will loose a lot of isolation. I wish there was a way to get more isolation but the city does not allow duct board either. I will take some pictures when it’s done. Once it’s done I can start framing.

WHen you replace the flex - use insulated metal duct - that is as quiet as anything elese you could do - it's as quiet as duct board...... just costs more..... Unlined metal duct can get VERY noisey...... Rod

Great drawings- what program do you use? I'm going crazy trying to use sketchup...

Camistan, I did some pricing on doors as well and between the control room and live room I think I will have to end up with 2 sets of French doors. I was looking into getting 2 exterior 5 foot sliding glass doors but the price for the good ones were about $1,400 each. If I get 2 basic Home Depot sliding glass doors then I’m afraid that they will rattle and then I will have 4 pains of glass. The 5 foot oak with glass French doors from Home Depot only have one pain of glass (maybe I could install a thicker pain later) and only cost about $300. I will have to make my own seals with the French doors and maybe that will be good enough or maybe I’m just kidding myself. How do you plan on sealing your doors? Are your doors going to have glass in them? Mine need glass because I have to see between the control room and the live room. Does anyone have any experience with getting a French door to have a good seal? Good luck with your Drywall-Beef party. My brother in-law is a structural engineer and I consulted him about adding 4 layers of 5/8” drywall to the joists. He ran the numbers and said that I could do it but it would be pushing the limit. He said that the joists might sag a little and that statement scared me so I think I’m just going to go with 2 layers of 5/8” drywall on RC and stuff insulation between the joists. Rod, thanks for responding. Right now the HVAC contractor already put in most of the new ducts; they should be finishing up later today. I will look into the insulated metal duct because I might replace their ducts in the live room with some insulated metal ducts. The ducts in the other two rooms go all the way back to the furnace but they had to connect the live room ducts into the main send trunk line. I am concerned about that because the ducts that go up the the master bedroom are next to those connections in the trunk line. Can I get insulated metal duct at a place like Home Depot or do I need to go someplace special? Cjbdrm, the program I use it Adobe Illustrator. I am a graphic designer so I work in Illustrator and Photoshop all day long. I’m glad you like the drawings.

bcarr wrote:

Can I get insulated metal duct at a place like Home Depot or do I need to go someplace special?

bc, nope - it hs to be made by a contractor who deals in mechanical systems - your HVAC contractor either makes it - or has someone they use on a regular basis t make it for them. Like I said - just make sure it's 100% lined and then it will be as quiet as super duct. Rod