Basement studio thread.. time to start this thing

Hey Tom, Congrats on getting the panel moved. I’ve reading along this thread for a while and been paying attention to the topic of moving that panel. I am going to be moving my electric distribution panel. Just a curious question, did you already have a disconnect switch at the power meter outside the house and/or did you have to get the power company involved which then needs a permit and inspection? My panel is going to be flipped to the opposite wall, I’ve got to get the power company involved to install a disconnect switch and the flip is in my blue print for permit, so it will be inspected. Marc

AND.... Thanks Tom (& Sharward), for your discusion on requirements for junction boxes to be over wire connections. Just made me realize I got correction work to do on previous upgrades I've done to my house... namely wire connections I made in attic not in a box, dang hope my house don't burn down :cry: . AND Tom you sparked an idea, now an internal debate on where to relocate my panel. If I flip it I'm giving myself an islolation obsticle to work around in the main walls I require isolation from. Moving it in the direction of most of the wires like you did may be the better option. One more curious question, was the 220 line, the main line in from meter the same direction you moved the panel? Got to call an electrician now before I finalize blue print with architect. Sorry to babble on your thread. :twisted: :D Thanks Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

AND.... Thanks Tom (& Sharward), for your discusion on requirements for junction boxes to be over wire connections. Just made me realize I got correction work to do on previous upgrades I've done to my house... namely wire connections I made in attic not in a box, dang hope my house don't burn down :cry: . AND Tom you sparked an idea, now an internal debate on where to relocate my panel. If I flip it I'm giving myself an islolation obsticle to work around in the main walls I require isolation from. Moving it in the direction of most of the wires like you did may be the better option. One more curious question, was the 220 line, the main line in from meter the same direction you moved the panel? Got to call an electrician now before I finalize blue print with architect. Sorry to babble on your thread. :twisted: :D Thanks Marc

The main line from the meter was NOT in the same direction. The electrician had to put in a new line... which is like $3 a foot. But the reason my panel was so easy to relocate is because the majority of the wiring came from the direction I wan't to move to. I only needed a couple junction boxes.... and I will need to keep access to them to meet code. I would definately recommend moving it in the same direction as most of your wiring if you can... it makes for a much smaller project! I didn't have to get the power company involved... i'm not exactly sure why (i let the electrician worry about that), but I believe I did have a disconnect switch. What a relief though, I'm so glad it's moved!

The electrician had to put in a new line... which is like $3 a foot

Was that a completely new 220 wire from meter to panel, or did he splice old and new line and cover connection with a junction box? You defiantly have a disconnect switch at your meter or somewhere else, or the electrician would have gotten fried re-locating the 220 line. I wasn’t sure of code, but this leads me to believe new code (compared to my house built in 1964) requires an occupant accessible disconnect switch located somewhere else besides the main off switch in panel. My neighbors who’ve upgraded there service panel to 200amps have to get power company and inspection involved. In my case I may have a switch at the meter but it has a wire tag on access box. If I cut the tag without notifying Power Company then at my next reading, I’ll be questioned why tag was cut… and then except the consequences of doing a major electrical change without permit, they will notify building code office. Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

The electrician had to put in a new line... which is like $3 a foot

Was that a completely new 220 wire from meter to panel, or did he splice old and new line and cover connection with a junction box? You defiantly have a disconnect switch at your meter or somewhere else, or the electrician would have gotten fried re-locating the 220 line. I wasn’t sure of code, but this leads me to believe new code (compared to my house built in 1964) requires an occupant accessible disconnect switch located somewhere else besides the main off switch in panel. My neighbors who’ve upgraded there service panel to 200amps have to get power company and inspection involved. In my case I may have a switch at the meter but it has a wire tag on access box. If I cut the tag without notifying Power Company then at my next reading, I’ll be questioned why tag was cut… and then except the consequences of doing a major electrical change without permit, they will notify building code office. Marc

It was a completely new 220 wire. It sounds like you got a tough situation... I hope it works out for you! I thought that certain things could remain not up to code since they were installed prior to the new standards. Since you wouldn't be replacing or upgrading, but just relocating, maybe that's different.. I hope your electrician can help you out! Good luck!

I've been thinking about the possibility of adding new joists instead of using the existing ones. If this would make it possible to avoid the RSIC clips, then this might be a good idea for me. The only thing is, because i will be boxing around the ducts in my room, the one wall won't extend to the top of the room.... So that means The new ceiling joists will have to rest on the same wood that the current ceiling joists are on, which is on top of the outer leaf. I know that's not totally ideal... but thoughts?? The walls are concrete in the basement and on top of the concrete is some wood that the ceiling joists lay on. In between these joists, I could put some 2X8's.... I'm not sure how to fasten them together once in place (since it will take 2 to span accross the room... and of course to be able to get it there in the first place). So if this is a good idea, I would need some idea on how to do that... The reason I wasn't going to do this originally was because of the returns to the ducts from above them... (it blocks the space in between the joists). However, after talking with an HVAC person, they said it wouldn't be a big deal to cut into them, add the joists, and seal it up again.

Tom, If you are going to add new joists i think they need to be SOLID members, i'm pretty sure you can't use 2 and then splice them together. from the pix it looks like it is pretty near impossible to get new joists up in between your existing ones :cry: ... but i could be wrong, maybe a solution involving joist hangers? or maybe a sort of wall frame (with no gypsum) built near and alongside the existing wall opposite the duct -- one end of the joists could sit on that. there's probably a better solution but i'm not a construction guy. Have you had any luck investigating how much weight your engineered joists will support? if you can't add weight to your existing joists, one option might be to go supersize on your inner leaf. Dan

Bump.... Steve, I was hoping you could give some advice about how I could possibly avoid the 3-leaf affect with my design... The only thing I can think of is the wall between control room and isolation room would have to be 1 mass, and then the wall between isolation booth and outside would have to be 1 mass. That would make the isolation booth less isolated though... And I wouldn't be able to put insulation on these walls... since it would be open faced and bare.

I just used some puddy pads from quiet solution for the vents that go into the ceiling and to the first floor. I did this because if I stood in my basement while dark, i could see light shining through cracks. I did a little test like this. I used my cheap radio shack spl meter (the analog one). I took a cheap radio and put it on the basement floor facing up. I played a rather compressed CD. I measured the SPL from just beneath the vent and then upstairs right over the vent. I recorded the highest peak and always measured the same part of the song. The reading was 96 beneath the vent in the basement and 72 upstairs. AFTER the puddy, it was still 96 beneath the vent and 70 upstairs. So I guess the puddy for this one vent got me 2 decibles more of isolation. I have 1 other vent to do but I doubt it will affect this vent much. I was a little dissapointed by the difference. 2 db wasn't really noticable to my ear (within the time it took me to put up the puddy of course). I'm mainly dissapointed because my vents still sound like little speakers compared to the rest of the floor when i stand upstairs. SO... any ideas what I can do? (or should I do anything... and there will eventually be 2 layers of drywall hanging off hat channel and RSIC). The metal vent part of the flex duct is already a leaf. What could I put on it that would help the isolation a bit more and remain part of the same leaf? I would load it up with more puddy over the entire metal section... but that stuff is kind of expensive. $50 including shipping for a box of 10 pads. Any suggestions?

I finished putting puddy over the other vent and I doubled up around the edges where there were cracks previously to the upstairs. To me, from what I remember hearing yesterday, I perceive a difference (which is probably not reliable at all), although my SPL meter is still showing the same improvement of 2db. I'm not sure if I applied something else to the metal part of the duct (which would still be a single leaf unless the vents upstairs were closed (and they never will be)), if it would help. It's probably just the flex duct letting the sound upstairs now. I don't want to put anything around that because it would probably just increase the 3 leaf effect.

Tom, your vents are gonna sound like that til you have your full ceiing in place; I'm still not finding enough time to cover all your questions yet, too many 'gators still alive and kickin' around here but will try to find time to review all your info and "cogitate" a bit on your booth, vents, window, etc, fairly soon... Steve

Great Steve! I'm glad you haven't forgotten about me! I'm looking forward to more of your advice! :D Tom

Tom, if you need good iso between booth and CR you'll have to use m-a-m there. On the other side (toward the rest of the bsement) it would be better NOT to use double wall masses, same with the portion of the wall where the door is at - two solid slab doors with good seals is all you want between the CR and the rest of the house. Double mass for the wall between booth and the sound lock it's adjoining. I need to know the maximum width of HVAC duct at that corner by the booth so I can see if flat-laid 2x4's will be enough framing on 2' centers or not. Also need to check the IBC to see if it's even legal, and since my laptop (with all that stuff on it) is in my locker at work, that won't happen for a couple days or more. Did finally get a chance to do a show/tell on what I meant on your duct frame-in - will try to get it all in the next post. If you can group all your unanswered questions in one post, it'll help me catch up - thanks... Steve

Here's an excercise in futility that may help some people figure out how to do a couple things with just a skil saw and drill and Workmate and a few clamps - mainly for Tom, but might come in handy (in conjuntion with a couple other sketches I've posted previously in this thread) - The purpose of the following is to show how to make frame sections for boxing in metal HVAC ducts - these frame pieces would then be attached to RESILIENTLY suspended wall and ceiling wallboard using cleats and screws, or similar. Hope ya got broadband, there's 49 pix comin' atcha, 6 at a time... Steve

Group 2 -

Group 3 -

Group 4 -

Group 5 -

Group 6 -

Group 7 -

Group 8 -

And the last one - keep in mind there's more than one way to do nearly EVERYTHING - this is mainly for Tom, and partly for those just starting into this particular type of masochism... :lol: Comments are always welcome, even if you're WRONG :wink:

WOW! Thanks so much! That explains it VERY clearly! I hope it helps others too...I would imagine this is a common issue for basement studios.. It's all starting to make sense in my head...finally. I do have a few major issues that I need to work on... My concrete floor problem. (remember around the perimeter of the room, if I hit the floor, I hear a very low frequency ringing sound). I'm having a hell of a time finding anyone to help me. I tried this company A1 concrete... they don't return my calls and NEVER answer their phone. So I think it's safer to forget about them anyway. From their website, it looks like they'd be perfect for my problem. Then I was thinking, this sound I'm hearing may be caused by something else. The down spouts from the gutters go into this plasic thing that goes into the ground (see picture below). Maybe this runs under the house... and therefore, even if I did get someone to try to fix it, they'd possibly either ruin it or not help anything.... It doesn't really explain the other side of the basement towards the middle of the house though...(where the garage starts above) :? My next question is probably easier to answer... regarding framing. Once I've built my frames and I'm attaching them to the concrete floor (using sill seal! and not pressure treated wood), what do I do to make the walls plumb and square? The concrete floor i'm sure is not level. Then the wood may not be level either... Should I stand the frame up and make it level (vertically), then attach to the wall so that it doesn't move from that vertical position.... (or ceiling temporarily... it may be easier since it will be attaching to wood instead of concrete :roll:) Then what should I use under those tiny places under the bottom plate where it's not making perfect contact with the concrete floor?

Steve - My ceiling joists are spaced 19 inches on center (seems odd), so I guess the frame around my ducts will be every 19" instead of 24"?? The widest part of the duct is 2' 9" in from the concrete wall. The frame at this point will be about 5" from the concrete wall (to the inner most part of the frame). So to the inside wall (without drywall) the duct frame will reach 2' 4" before being supported by the inner frame.... This is NOT counting the space left for insulation and the size of the board. So in total it will probably be more like 2' 7"...and this is ONLY at the one side of the room. The angled walls will mean they only get shorter towards the other end of the room. How much space do you think I will lose using the RSIC-04 (truss clips) for my ceiling? I understand why it's best to use them for the frame around the duct.. Do I need to use these for the rest of the ceiling because I have the engineered "I" joists and there maybe isn't enough thickness in the middle section of the engineered joist to screw in the regular RSIC clips?? This is what i'm visualizing for the top of the duct frame... Am I correct? The four inches of the 2X4 is horizontal with the RSIC-04 clips.... does the edge for the screws twist? SO the hat channel can run parallel to the duct?? (as opposed to what the picture below implies) The black is the part you would see of the 2X4 from this perspective.

Tom, There is no way that drainage pipe runs under your house, unless some one really took there time to install it incorrectly. :roll: I’m in the middle of building a drainage system for one of my down spouts and hopefully I’ll finish today… I’ll take pics and if you ask I’ll post them, although this is completely off topic of studio build. Typically houses (at least in Florida & Halifax Canada) are not built with gutters; they are put on by the home owner after the fact. You can not install a rain gutter till the roof is up anyways 8) … Also typically a drain field from the bottom of down spout is not installed by gutter contractor. The black pipe attached to your rain gutter looks like a drainage pipe mostly used in a septic tank system for drainage after the tank. You should be able to see holes in it. If it was installed correctly it should be buried in the ground, surrounded top and bottom by cheap rock and lead away from your house for X amount of feet depending on your soil type. The only problem(s) you should ever have with it is if it gets clogged or over flows. Typically by tree debris such as leaves or pine needles or depending on you roof shingles little pebble like pieces of the shingle. You should check it once a year, maybe install a clean out (place to pull it apart) and check to see if someone put wire mesh of some sort at the top of down spout to stop debris from entering. Another cause of over flow would be if it was not installed correctly with enough rocks to let the thing drain. Only adverse sound effect I could think of is noise when it rains… but rain hitting your window should be louder then water gushing through your drain field that you probably won’t hear through a concrete wall and dirt. How ever so slightly is my down spout drain field related to my studio build… the job was sparked by removing sprinkler manifold from studio wall and a chain reaction has lead to landscape work all over my house. :twisted: And Tom, you should jump up and down about having spending $350 on you electric panel move… my upgrade and move is going to cost me $2,300. Marc