Basement studio thread.. time to start this thing

OK, I'll work on getting those pictures. I was afraid of what you would say about the resonance :x Hopefully I don't have to drill and fill. I'll try to map out the whole studio part and give you a better idea of the sections it's happening in and their dimensions. There is insulation inbetween the concrete floor and the concrete walls. This is what my idiot inspector told me to remove so the french drainage system could work! Anyways, that insulation probably helps to isolate the walls from the floor? At the least it might mean that they are separated? I'll have to take a good listen... to give you a better idea. What do you think the major problem with the resonance is? Flanking noise hurting the isolation of my room? Or horrible acoustics once it's done? Or both? :? I didn't plan on floating the floor... if it's acoustics, i'm not sure what to do. If it's flanking, maybe just a drum riser and then good monitor stands that provide isolation for my monitors? If it's just my floor resonating..

Another thought about the resonance... Maybe I shouldn't use RC on the walls? If my concrete walls are not resonating, then only my inner walls would.. and if my ceiling is hung from RC clips, it should be "floating" and not as affected by the resonating walls. But if I use RC on the walls, it could increase their resonance?? That brings me to whether or not I should use RC anyways on the walls? If my ceiling or maybe my doors are the weakest links, why should I bother with RC on the inner walls? Or would the RC on the inner walls help decrease the resonance from traveling through the first leaf? What do you think?

Steve, I was wondering if you could comment on this idea to help improve the floor issue... I plan to have a glueless laminate floor (probably the last step of construction..) I don't want to get involved with floating the floor because I don't have the height... but what about using green glue in some type of way... If I could cover the concrete floor (i'll have to verify with the GG people if this is cool) and then put something solid on top of the green glue (the big question is what though since it's on top of concrete in a basement), then the foam underlay, then the floor.... would that improve isolation? and help the resonating floor problem? People here seem to like GG. This would either go to the walls, or maybe I could do the subfloor underneath the framing.

From the Frequently Asked Questions page on the Audio Alloy site:

What about my floors?
Green Glue is highly effective at stopping vibration within the floor system. If you have hard surface floors such as stone, ceramic, vinyl or hardwood, it is recommended that you build a constrained layer system with two layers of subflooring, and Green in between. Depending on your builder and local building code, you may be able to use two sheets of _” or 3/8” subflooring to accomplish this.
What about a cement floor?
Many people use Green Glue between a cement floor and a layer of plywood. This is not as critical as the walls and ceilings. The use on the cement floor should be considered an option.
Do I need to nail or screw the panels to the ceiling, walls and floor?
Yes. Audio Alloy recommends the use of screws in accordance with local building codes. Screws assist with the compression of the Green Glue layer into a thin film.

Nothing about laminate flooring... I would think that wouldn't be wise.

sharward wrote:

From the Frequently Asked Questions page on the Audio Alloy site:

What about my floors?
Green Glue is highly effective at stopping vibration within the floor system. If you have hard surface floors such as stone, ceramic, vinyl or hardwood, it is recommended that you build a constrained layer system with two layers of subflooring, and Green in between. Depending on your builder and local building code, you may be able to use two sheets of _” or 3/8” subflooring to accomplish this.
What about a cement floor?
Many people use Green Glue between a cement floor and a layer of plywood. This is not as critical as the walls and ceilings. The use on the cement floor should be considered an option.
Do I need to nail or screw the panels to the ceiling, walls and floor?
Yes. Audio Alloy recommends the use of screws in accordance with local building codes. Screws assist with the compression of the Green Glue layer into a thin film.

Nothing about laminate flooring... I would think that wouldn't be wise.

The glueless laminate flooring would not be on top of the green glue...neither the foam underlay. I am talking about putting something (like plywood, but something else (if such a thing or idea exists)), on top of the green glue. Then on top of that, the underlay and laminate.

Steve, here are some more pictures of the basement window...

So the question is, how do I plug up this window (Something that I can remove shouldn't be impossible right?...even if it means cutting out the caulk and then recaulking to put back.) Also, I'd like to try to match the STC of the concrete if that's possible.. And I need to make it with something that won't rot. This weekend, we had a lot of rain, sleet, snow, and wind. I noticed that the other basement window (which does not have a window well) got a bit icey on the inside. However, this window remained pretty dry and not icey. Don't know if that was just luck or what though..

Hey Tom, Here's the official documented statement that the Structural Engineer sent me...

The basement is being finished and the ceiling will be sound proofed by adding four layers of 5/8 drywall to the first floor joists. The first floor joists will support the drywall and they consists of pre-engineered I-joists (TJI 130) spaced 24 inches on center spanning approximately 14.5 feet. The floor joists are structurally adequate to support these loading conditions; however, approximately 0.4 inches of deflection can be expected at mid span of the I-joists.

The reason he says "four layers 5/8 drywall" is because I told him I was planning on "beefing up" my mass for my ceiling by putting 2 layers of drywall below the subfloor and 2 layers on RC connected to the ceiling I-joist bottom. Hopes this helps with your project...

camistan wrote:

Hey Tom, Here's the official documented statement that the Structural Engineer sent me...

The basement is being finished and the ceiling will be sound proofed by adding four layers of 5/8 drywall to the first floor joists. The first floor joists will support the drywall and they consists of pre-engineered I-joists (TJI 130) spaced 24 inches on center spanning approximately 14.5 feet. The floor joists are structurally adequate to support these loading conditions; however, approximately 0.4 inches of deflection can be expected at mid span of the I-joists.

The reason he says "four layers 5/8 drywall" is because I told him I was planning on "beefing up" my mass for my ceiling by putting 2 layers of drywall below the subfloor and 2 layers on RC connected to the ceiling I-joist bottom. Hopes this helps with your project...

Excellent! Thanks for remember to get back to me!!!

TomM wrote:

So the question is, how do I plug up this window (Something that I can remove shouldn't be impossible right?...even if it means cutting out the caulk and then recaulking to put back.) Also, I'd like to try to match the STC of the concrete if that's possible.. And I need to make it with something that won't rot. This weekend, we had a lot of rain, sleet, snow, and wind. I noticed that the other basement window (which does not have a window well) got a bit icey on the inside. However, this window remained pretty dry and not icey. Don't know if that was just luck or what though..

Hey Tom, welcome to the fray. Why not just concrete the window space? Remove the window and frame, build a simple form and concrete it up? Just a thought.

And also, the other issue... I've been thinking about ways to help the isolation problems that the flex ducts cause WITHOUT building new ducts (which i'm uncomfortable to attempt). Here is a picture to remind you, and then I'll post my ideas. Sorry the picture is a bit dark...hopefully you can see it to get the idea.

Both of these will probably cause some 3 leaf effect... but it's just unavoidable in my situation. Thoughts on either of these? Any good? The first is if you were looking down from the ceiling. The second is looking between the joists..

WiseMindsRecordingStudios wrote:

TomM wrote:

So the question is, how do I plug up this window (Something that I can remove shouldn't be impossible right?...even if it means cutting out the caulk and then recaulking to put back.) Also, I'd like to try to match the STC of the concrete if that's possible.. And I need to make it with something that won't rot. This weekend, we had a lot of rain, sleet, snow, and wind. I noticed that the other basement window (which does not have a window well) got a bit icey on the inside. However, this window remained pretty dry and not icey. Don't know if that was just luck or what though..

Hey Tom, welcome to the fray. Why not just concrete the window space? Remove the window and frame, build a simple form and concrete it up? Just a thought.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'd like to be able to remove it should I sell the house some day...

here's an idea on the window ... take out the window and frame leaving only the wood. then close up the hole with a combination of wood and gypsum, but leave at least a 3/4 inch recess on the outside. then attach a couple of layers of building paper (not plastic) and then some stucco wire or some other wire mesh (with a little gap behind) and use mortar to fill in the recess. it will take a few layers. i wouldn't use stucco as it's too coarse to work with easily, it has chunks of sand etc. mortar is easier to work with. then when you're done paint the surface with some latex exterior paint. just make sure you attach the wood and gypsum backing from the inside, so it's easy to remove .. then you can just knock a hammer through the mortar to reopen the hole. don't use plastic because you want any moisture that somehow finds its way in to also be able to find its way out when the weather dries up. of course, this may not be the right way to do it. but that's what i would do. i worked with mortar on vertical surface on my project and it wasn't that hard. i didnt even use mesh, but i was using mortar on stucco so i thought it would stick ok. and it did. i would also try and monitor the area for cracks, and if you see any, add another coat of paint to fill the cracks or if they are large, caulk them up. hope that helps dan

Tom, From my understanding having the flexduct is not a bad thing. It is certainly better than the plain ol' aluminum/metal ducts because of noise travel concerns. I believe the recommended duct on this site would be Johns Manville Superduct. I believe that most if not all flexduct is insulated. The flexduct I have has a fiberglass lining around the flexible inner lining itself. This (to some degree) helps in stopping sound transmission and sound bleed in. I would assume in your ceiling you will be putting something like OC 703, Roxul or the denser "pink stuff" insulation. I would think the insulation in conjunction with the drywall and RC should be sufficient for soundproofing your flexduct. Remember ALSO that for your SUPPLY air flexduct you want at least two 45 or 90 degree bends from your air handler to your grill/register, or from your supply trunk to your grill/ register. (If you think about it, in most cases you have one 90 degree bend coming out of your trunk and possibly one more before you get to your grill/register) Looking at the picture you posted you have the potential to put 2 layers of drywall below your subfloor, in between your joists ABOVE your flexduct. From looking at your drawing, you intend to do this anyway in the other joist cavities. It would seem all you have to do is disconnect the flexduct from the grill/register and possibly any supports for the flexduct (although in most cases flexduct can be moved above/around a support or is supported by some type of strap or band that can easily be replaced). You would then move your flexduct temporarily until you "beef up" (2 sheets drywall) between your ceiling joist. The extra drywall above the flexduct will help with sound isolation also. What I plan on doing is running an elbow from my flexduct down inside one of my wall cavities. The entire cavity will be lined with ductboard. My grill/register will be oversized. The cavity size and ductboard should not restrict any airflow but give a wider velocity area for the air to travel which in return makes for quieter air flow. Here is an initial post I did about my HVAC concerns. I made some changes since posting this. The responses I got helped out a lot.... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =silencers Here's info concerning "silencers" which help reduce noise travel... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=270 http://www.rewci.com/8siforroduld.html http://store.oneida-air.com/Merchant2/m ... y_Code=BSS Here's a post about sound and air travel... http://www.recording.org/modules.php?na ... t=silencer Here's another post on HVAC... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4106 Hopes this helps...

Back on 1/3/2006, I wrote:

. . . will your city allow you to simply "plug up the window"? I'm pretty certain the builder would not have put it there unless they were required to do so... So I'm going on record here doubting that they'll let you erase it like that.

You (Tom) responded:

. . . i'll have to check with the right people... I've spoken to someone that deals with construction and code a lot (but for restaurants ...so this isn't anything official). But he said that the windows are there for ventilation should you need them... but they aren't a requirement. So i'll look into it, but hopefully they are right!

Did you have a chance to look into it? That should be a pretty easy question to get answered by your local building department. Perhaps a mechanical ventilation system can be used in lieu of the window... :roll:

If you convince the "BRA's" there's no sleeping quarters down there, you may not have to keep that window operable; if that's the case, then I'd cut some rigid EPS foam insulation board to exactly fit the window (including cutouts for the latch, etc - what you're going for here is NO AIR SPACE just insulation, and CLOSED CELL at that) - then, inside the EPS board put regular insulation fill, then 2-3 layers of mass with NO AIR SPACE between them - see the "window plug" thread in the REFERENCE section for more on constructing this type plug. The foam board will keep the glass from sweating but NOT act as an air gap (more like "light" mass) and it will insulate enough so sweating doesn't happen. Caulk around it before insulating and adding the "plug" - Since this is concrete, you'll need some lag shields and lag bolts to hold the plug in place, unless you're willing to just lean a heavy board up against it from the inside :? Ductwork - can you get any pix showing the connections to/from the main duct and the flex? It's starting to look like you will indeed be stuck with some 3-leaf crap, if so maybe your lower drawing but with THREE layers in each place instead of two??!? Steve

sharward wrote:

Back on 1/3/2006, I wrote:

. . . will your city allow you to simply "plug up the window"? I'm pretty certain the builder would not have put it there unless they were required to do so... So I'm going on record here doubting that they'll let you erase it like that.

You (Tom) responded:

. . . i'll have to check with the right people... I've spoken to someone that deals with construction and code a lot (but for restaurants ...so this isn't anything official). But he said that the windows are there for ventilation should you need them... but they aren't a requirement. So i'll look into it, but hopefully they are right!

Did you have a chance to look into it? That should be a pretty easy question to get answered by your local building department. Perhaps a mechanical ventilation system can be used in lieu of the window... :roll:

Well the person I talked to couldn't exactly tell me... she said, I need to draw it up in a plan with as much detail as possible.. I asked about the electric, and she said I should speak with an electrician to see if that would be OK.. Not much help!

knightfly wrote:

If you convince the "BRA's" there's no sleeping quarters down there, you may not have to keep that window operable; if that's the case, then I'd cut some rigid EPS foam insulation board to exactly fit the window (including cutouts for the latch, etc - what you're going for here is NO AIR SPACE just insulation, and CLOSED CELL at that) - then, inside the EPS board put regular insulation fill, then 2-3 layers of mass with NO AIR SPACE between them - see the "window plug" thread in the REFERENCE section for more on constructing this type plug. The foam board will keep the glass from sweating but NOT act as an air gap (more like "light" mass) and it will insulate enough so sweating doesn't happen. Caulk around it before insulating and adding the "plug" - Since this is concrete, you'll need some lag shields and lag bolts to hold the plug in place, unless you're willing to just lean a heavy board up against it from the inside :? Ductwork - can you get any pix showing the connections to/from the main duct and the flex? It's starting to look like you will indeed be stuck with some 3-leaf crap, if so maybe your lower drawing but with THREE layers in each place instead of two??!? Steve

Steve, any idea where I can get this EPS board? Anything else similar available at home depot or lowes? When you say caulk around it... do you mean the window as it is now? to help seal off moisture? Or do you mean around the EPS board? what kind of mass would you recommend for an outside wall? just pressure treated wood?

Sounds like you ended up with a receptionist. I've had good luck actually going to the building department and speaking directly to a plan reviewer. Most of the "you can't do that" information I got was from a senior inspector / supervisor. If you make it clear that you're looking for some definitive "dos" and "don'ts" to facilitate your design that you will then formally submit to them for final approval... You just want to avoid making any assumptions that would totally turn your plan upside down. Don't give up! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

ooo, knightfly's solution is much simpler than mine, hehe. i was thinking toward trying to duplicate the mass of the concrete more closely, but maybe that's not needed. you can get extruded polystyrene at home depot, in several thicknesses including 2 inch, it comes in 4x8 sheets ... look in the insulation section.

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

ooo, knightfly's solution is much simpler than mine, hehe. i was thinking toward trying to duplicate the mass of the concrete more closely, but maybe that's not needed. you can get extruded polystyrene at home depot, in several thicknesses including 2 inch, it comes in 4x8 sheets ... look in the insulation section.

Thanks... is it OK if that stuff gets a little wet? What should I use for the mass considering it's location? Also... if I use this insulation, can I paint it black so that from the outside, it appears like a dark basement through the window?

What if I used black neoprene rubber against the window? Like.... this stuff Then rigid polystyrene insulation, then several layers of OSB screwed together... the neoprene covering the sides and back of the entire plug?

In my suggestion, the GLASS is your outer mass; any "wetness" should be caused by condensation, which happens if there is too sudden a temperature shift while passing through the layers. The foam board has high R value, so should do better at alleviating the temp shifts that cause condensation. Glass itself is a "vapor barrier", you don't want another. Keeping the foam board against the glass lets both of these "vapor barriers" act as one. A layer of neoprene, etc, may cause problems unless you can LAMINATE it to the foam - air spaces here are NOT your friend. The rest of the "normal" insulation is mainly for acoustic purposes; improves TL thru the plug. The inner mass, and the air space, are your main blocks - unless there's a way to beef up the existing glass with no air gaps created, your mass-air-mass will consist of glass/foam - fluffy stuff - MDF (or whatever else you use for the inner layers) Using 1/8" glass and an effective 3" air gap with two layers of 3/4" MDF, your window would be somewhere around STC 48 with a TL at the low end of about 27-28 dB - increasing the gap to 4" would help the low end slightly, but not change STC at all. If the "wetness" you talk about is from leaks outside, this needs to be fixed FIRST... Steve

knightfly wrote:

In my suggestion, the GLASS is your outer mass; any "wetness" should be caused by condensation, which happens if there is too sudden a temperature shift while passing through the layers. The foam board has high R value, so should do better at alleviating the temp shifts that cause condensation. Glass itself is a "vapor barrier", you don't want another. Keeping the foam board against the glass lets both of these "vapor barriers" act as one. A layer of neoprene, etc, may cause problems unless you can LAMINATE it to the foam - air spaces here are NOT your friend. The rest of the "normal" insulation is mainly for acoustic purposes; improves TL thru the plug. The inner mass, and the air space, are your main blocks - unless there's a way to beef up the existing glass with no air gaps created, your mass-air-mass will consist of glass/foam - fluffy stuff - MDF (or whatever else you use for the inner layers) Using 1/8" glass and an effective 3" air gap with two layers of 3/4" MDF, your window would be somewhere around STC 48 with a TL at the low end of about 27-28 dB - increasing the gap to 4" would help the low end slightly, but not change STC at all. If the "wetness" you talk about is from leaks outside, this needs to be fixed FIRST... Steve

Steve, if I am able to build a wall over this window (which would then become my inner leaf), how would you recommend doing the window in that case? Just skip the fluffy insulation? So Just several layers of MDF on polystyrene insulation? I would have the space to do around 5 layers if that would help match the STC of the concrete walls. But in that case, i'd want the window to look black from the outside, so would I be able to paint the insulation first before putting it up against the window? As far as the permit is concerned... I will make up the plans as if that window is closed up for good. I'm gonna angle each side wall by 7 degrees too... (i won't lose much space, but I like that it should eliminate the need for so much absorption to get rid of flutter echo). Then my basement will only require 2 inspections.. One for framing, and then one final one... All for $52. That's not bad ...as long as I pass the inspections! I'm hoping to not have to do mechanical ventilation, but of course, I have no idea of such requirements for a basement in PA.