Does anyone have any suggestions how to frame out the ducts?
My problem with them will be that there isn't much room between the ducts and the concrete walls. I'm worried that fastening the duct framing to the ceiling and then the wall frames will not give it enough support without also screwing the duct frame on the other side to the ceiling. I'll be able to do this in some places, but not the whole thing... any suggestions or concerns?
I've also been thinking that I should use RC clips and green glue around this duct.... but also using styrofoam cut out so that it fills in the middle (or double backed insulation pressed firmly against the ducts) to help eliminate the third leaf effect that will occur.
What do I do about fastening the frame to the ceiling? Should I use something inbetween the duct frame and ceiling joists and wall studs?
Any suggestions?? This is basically what the ducts look like from an over-head view (if that were possible).
Basement studio thread.. time to start this thing
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 5359.
Glass - what about using some of that tinting film you can buy for cars? Just get the darkest you can find, and it's DESIGNED to laminate to the glass. Once that's on, you can insulate using standard fluffy stuff (fill the entire window well with it) and maybe screw some fiberglass strapping to the metal window frame using short sheet metal screws and washers, so the insulation doesn't fall out of the window.
This would damp the window pane. Then, if you use 3 layers of 5/8 gypsum with GG on the last one, you should do pretty good (especially if you leave a total air gap of around a foot)
Duct enclosing - are you talking about RC as in Resilient Channel, or "clips" as in RSIC clips and hat channel? Steve
AWESOME IDEA! Thanks!!!! That's what I'm gonna do!Glass - what about using some of that tinting film you can buy for cars? Just get the darkest you can find, and it's DESIGNED to laminate to the glass. Once that's on, you can insulate using standard fluffy stuff (fill the entire window well with it) and maybe screw some fiberglass strapping to the metal window frame using short sheet metal screws and washers, so the insulation doesn't fall out of the window. This would damp the window pane. Then, if you use 3 layers of 5/8 gypsum with GG on the last one, you should do pretty good (especially if you leave a total air gap of around a foot).
I should have been more clear. I'm talking about RSIC clips (from here: http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... /clips.asp) and hat channel... I have no experience with any of this stuff, but it seems to me that the clips would provide more strength for holding up all the drywall. I think I'm gonna use something other than drywall for around the duct... because drywall will probably be really difficult to finish on those corners that point into the room. I may use 1 layer of drywall on the inside, then OSB or something on the exposed layer (painted to match the ceiling). My concern is if it will be able to support the weight if I can't get behind the duct (the side that is next to the wall). I should be able to for most of it, but not all. I also can't move it very easily...actually I don't think I can move it at all. Also, I was wondering how to frame this out... what size wood to use? How to connect it to the ceiling joists and wall frame?? I did do a little test last night to see how much sound was getting through my ceiling as is. Upstairs by the vent I played a record that was rather compressed. I put the speakers pointing towards the corner above the vent. Just above the vent I got a reading of peaks about 92 db (on my radio shack analog db meter). Then I went into the basement and took a reading in-between the joists by the point where the duct goes to the upstairs. It read peaks at around 72 db. Hopefully there were no flaws with my test. The speakers were small and not facing down the vent, only facing the wall... but that shouldn't matter? I'm not sure how good that is, but I found the results pretty exciting...it's not as much of a weak point as I thought. It was definately a weak spot though (as well as any point on the flex duct... if I put my ear up to it, it was almost as if I was putting my ear up to a little speaker). However, any point along the flex duct was still a few db quieter than the metal part where the duct connects to the floor above. This gave me an idea, just for a few more db of isolation at this weak spot, what about using those putty packs? something like this: http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... y_pads.asp OR http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... _tubes.aspDuct enclosing - are you talking about RC as in Resilient Channel, or "clips" as in RSIC clips and hat channel? Steve
Putty packs are high density and will seal cracks, plus they're intumescent (swell up in a fire rather than just going away) - so it's all good.
Are you planning on RSIC's for just the ceiling, or the wall also? This will change how you should enclose your ducts.
2x2 framing would be absolute minimum for this, 2x4's on edge is better. spaced about 1/4" away from duct, they would leave enough room to lightly compress 2" 3 PCF insulation, which will damp the ductwork.
OUter corners of the duct box - no problem, just stagger joints same as wall/ceiling joints with multiple layers, then use outside corner mold.
You may be able to resiliently hang most or all of the box, need to know about your walls in the questions above... Steve
I think i'm gonna have to use RSIC's on the walls too. Because i'm gonna build the walls angled, I will have to use RSIC on the walls if i'm gonna bother with it on the ceiling? Right??? Once sound travels through the side walls, the only thing stopping it from the upstairs will be the regular floor if my ceiling sits inside the walls.... so if I use RSIC on the ceiling, I have to use it on the walls too? Is my thinking correct? Based on that, I am planning to use RSIC's on all inner walls.... (one side only of course on the wall that faces in the basement....which will be a double framed wall with 2 5/8" sheets on outer sides.Putty packs are high density and will seal cracks, plus they're intumescent (swell up in a fire rather than just going away) - so it's all good. Are you planning on RSIC's for just the ceiling, or the wall also? This will change how you should enclose your ducts. 2x2 framing would be absolute minimum for this, 2x4's on edge is better. spaced about 1/4" away from duct, they would leave enough room to lightly compress 2" 3 PCF insulation, which will damp the ductwork. OUter corners of the duct box - no problem, just stagger joints same as wall/ceiling joints with multiple layers, then use outside corner mold. You may be able to resiliently hang most or all of the box, need to know about your walls in the questions above... Steve
With a separate frame for wall, you shouldn't need RSIC's on the wall. I've started a sketch of your solution, but need to know what power tools you have access to and how well you know how to use them - specifically, are you up for making about 7 or 8 rabbeted, glued and screwed joints in 2x lumber? This would also involve 7 or 8 more RSIC04's and some spacers for ALL the ceiling RSIC's, since your trusjoists don't have tall web boards at the bottom and the RSIC's need a taller flat surface to mount properly.
Let me know how good you are, and I'll get back on the sketch... Steve
I don't have any experience :oops:
I have access to a good amount of tools, but I don't know what you mean by rabbeted, glued and screwed joints in 2x lumber...
Can you tell me how I could do that and what tools I would need?
If it's something that will take a lot of skill, then I may not be able to do it well... but if it's something that I should be able to do, I might be able to get the tools I will need...
Tom, specifically I need to know what types of SAWS you have access to (hoping a drill isn't a problem :wink: )
Then I'll do a detail on how to make the "L" assemblies - meantime, absorb this and add any questions you have... Steve
IGNORE THE WALLBOARD ABOVE YOUR JOIST - JUST A "LEFTOVER"... :?
I have a circular saw and a drill. I have access to a couple different miter saws.. a framing one, and a regular one, as well as a table saw, a reciprocating saw, and a chain saw (but i'm thinking i won't need that!)
I have a question about using that type of RSIC (04) for the rest of the ceiling. Will I be able to use that with my engineered joists? They are shaped like a capital I I wouldn't be able to have the side of it vertically flush with the side of the joists...
Also, I decided to angle my walls. For the clips that need to go from the frame to the concrete wall, how will I attach them where the wall is too far from the concrete than the clip can reach?
Steve,
I drew up a quick lay out in paint (not to scale). It doesn't have the dimensions (i have an hand drawing that is to scale with dimensions). You can see how the duct will be partially in the room and partially outside of the room.... should the part that lies outside the room be boxed in with drywall?? Or should only the part inside the room? The most the duct will be in the room is 2 feet 5 inches. I think the way the framed out duct will be though is that the duct will at least be partially in the room for the entire length of the room.
Also for the inner walls running horizontally in this picture, I was thinking of using 2X6s instead of 2X4s. I have the space since i'm angling the walls. Every wall that isn't angled (including the short walls that run horizontally in the control room) will be 2X4s. In my plans, the total space between concrete and inner most layer is 7 inches from all 2X4 walls. Do you think this is a good idea? I figure using 2X6's where I can will really help to support the walls... would this by any chance make it so I don't have to use anti-sawy (RSIC04s) with the concrete?
Also, as you can see from my drawing, my other issue is I cannot avoid the 3-leaf with my design because of the isolation booth. How will this affect my low end isolation? Horizontally, the iso booth is about 5 feet. Should I make the middle wall, one leaf instead of 2? Or should I still have it as 2 leaves? Will the space in the isolation booth be enough to help the 3 leaf effect? When recording drums, I can always leave the door to the iso booth open if it would help? The outter wall (in maroon) will be a separate frame from the inner walls of the isolation booth. The total space between the walls will be about 12 inches.
I have a question about using that type of RSIC (04) for the rest of the ceiling. Will I be able to use that with my engineered joists? They are shaped like a capital I I wouldn't be able to have the side of it vertically flush with the side of the joists...
From my earlier post -
"This would also involve 7 or 8 more RSIC04's and some spacers for ALL the ceiling RSIC's, since your trusjoists don't have tall web boards at the bottom and the RSIC's need a taller flat surface to mount properly. "
To further explain, you would need to measure the difference in depth of your thin section and the bottom wider portion, get some plywood that is the same thickness and make some spacers that would fasten to your trusjoists just above the web, so you DO have a smooth flat surface to fasten the RSIC's to.
See drawing below for one way to still use same RSIC's for sway braces on angled walls -
Still need some time to figure out the best way to use your available tools for the rabbet joints - do you by any chance have access to a Black and Decker Workmate, or similar? Steve
I don't think I have access to anything like the Black and Decker work mate. However, if I could use something like this, I could just buy it ($30)... http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=p ... lpage=none
Thanks for the further explanation!!
That'll work; outa time for now but will work up a good method for you... STeve
Cool...looking forward to what you come up with!That'll work; outa time for now but will work up a good method for you... STeve
Prob'ly be a day or two; meantime, whadja think of the framing/iso method so far? Steve
The design is excellent. The RSIC, plus green glue should really get me some good isolation from the rest of the house above. I'm just hoping that I can implement it correctly!! I'm anxious to get started....a little unsure about how things will work at the corners... with the drywall because of the angled walls and the duct hanging down. I think it will become more clear once I start getting the frames up.
Also... what will I use to attach the RSIC's to the concrete wall? What kind of drill do I need for that?
Hey Steve... remember the issue I was talking about before regarding the low frequency sounds I get when I hit the outer perimeter of the basement's concrete floor? It's worse in the corners (as in the resonance comes in a bit further).
What types of problems (acoustical and isolation) am I looking at if I don't do anything about this?? Is there any way of getting around drilling into the concrete?
Anyone have any comments on this? Also, was wondering if using 2X6's for the framing instead of 2X4's would be of any benefit??Hey Steve... remember the issue I was talking about before regarding the low frequency sounds I get when I hit the outer perimeter of the basement's concrete floor? It's basically around the entire part that would be the studio, and it's a bit worse in the corners. What types of problems (acoustical and isolation) am I looking at if I don't do anything about this?? Is there any way of getting around drilling into the concrete?
Also, I was trying to think of ways to help my ceiling situation. I think I could actually put in several new joists... but not between every joist. There are three joists in a row in one place, and then 2 in a row in another where I can't put up new joists in between. The others, however, I could have new joists that attach on top of the wood that lies on top of the concrete walls. Would this be a good idea? I could run some 2X8's where I can which would make it possible to attach more layers of drywall. I would still use RSIC...and I know this would be to the outer leaf instead of innerleaf, but it's only to be able to support more on the ceiling. What do you think about doing that? Then the question to follow that, how do I get 2X8's up there? Should I get two, put them in place and attach them together with something?
bump....
On your angled walls, will there be a point at the front of the room where the wall is actually further from the concrete wall than your duct?
Fastening RSIC's to concrete - per the first drawing (previous page) I mentioned either Ramset or lagging the hat channel to the concrete. Ramset is a trade name for a powder-actuated "nail gun" - it uses .22 or .38 caliber blanks to drive a special nail directly into concrete. This method is mostly for pro's, it's quick but can be dangerous, and can cause spalling (breaking out) of chunks of the concrete in some cases.
Lagging is drilling a larger than usual hole into the concrete (a masonry drill is required, and a hammer drill makes it go faster than a regular drill) - you then insert a "shield", which is a 2-piece lead alloy, ribbed tube - you then tighten a lag bolt into this tube (with whatever you want fastened there already having the lag bolt thru a hole in the device you're mounting) - as you tighten the lag bolt (they're tapered) it spreads the two halves of the lag shield, cramming the ribbed parts up against the sides of your hole and making a very strong anchor to the wall.
These are the same idea as the little plastic anchors used in drywall to fasten pictures, etc, only much stronger. You would use this to fasten the actual hat channel to the wall, then clip the RSIC's onto that, and the rest is shown pretty clearly in the two drawings.
Your ringing floor - this is NOT good. voids can be caused by not compacting the underlying dirt if it's been disturbed during construction, or by water rushing thru under the slab. Short of drilling holes in the floor every couple of feet and injecting new concrete til it squirts back out the hole, I don't know what to suggest. Just injecting foam won't help much, because foam has almost no damping and no mass. NOT fixing this will leave the room subject to ringing, which is ALSO unacceptable...
2x6's for framing - unless needed for ceiling/floor strength, no. For sound control a lighter frame that lets the leaves "bob and weave" just a bit is more effective. This is why 24" centers are better than 16" centers.
Extra 2x8's on ceiling - I'm not sure what you're trying for here; you'd need more support EVERYWHERE to add more weight. I'd be more inclined to spend the $$ on Green glue between layers in this case.
Still trying to find time for your "picture story" - may have to settle for doing another sketch, but haven't had time even for that :cry: Steve
RegardingOn your angled walls, will there be a point at the front of the room where the wall is actually further from the concrete wall than your duct? Fastening RSIC's to concrete - per the first drawing (previous page) I mentioned either Ramset or lagging the hat channel to the concrete. Ramset is a trade name for a powder-actuated "nail gun" - it uses .22 or .38 caliber blanks to drive a special nail directly into concrete. This method is mostly for pro's, it's quick but can be dangerous, and can cause spalling (breaking out) of chunks of the concrete in some cases. Lagging is drilling a larger than usual hole into the concrete (a masonry drill is required, and a hammer drill makes it go faster than a regular drill) - you then insert a "shield", which is a 2-piece lead alloy, ribbed tube - you then tighten a lag bolt into this tube (with whatever you want fastened there already having the lag bolt thru a hole in the device you're mounting) - as you tighten the lag bolt (they're tapered) it spreads the two halves of the lag shield, cramming the ribbed parts up against the sides of your hole and making a very strong anchor to the wall. These are the same idea as the little plastic anchors used in drywall to fasten pictures, etc, only much stronger. You would use this to fasten the actual hat channel to the wall, then clip the RSIC's onto that, and the rest is shown pretty clearly in the two drawings. Your ringing floor - this is NOT good. voids can be caused by not compacting the underlying dirt if it's been disturbed during construction, or by water rushing thru under the slab. Short of drilling holes in the floor every couple of feet and injecting new concrete til it squirts back out the hole, I don't know what to suggest. Just injecting foam won't help much, because foam has almost no damping and no mass. NOT fixing this will leave the room subject to ringing, which is ALSO unacceptable... 2x6's for framing - unless needed for ceiling/floor strength, no. For sound control a lighter frame that lets the leaves "bob and weave" just a bit is more effective. This is why 24" centers are better than 16" centers. Extra 2x8's on ceiling - I'm not sure what you're trying for here; you'd need more support EVERYWHERE to add more weight. I'd be more inclined to spend the $$ on Green glue between layers in this case. Still trying to find time for your "picture story" - may have to settle for doing another sketch, but haven't had time even for that :cry: Steve
It depends how I box out the duct. On one side the duct is wide, coming into the room 2 feet 9 inches. In about four foot intervals, it gets smaller and smaller until the furthest point in the room it's only about 20 inches into the room. If I box out the duct based on the furthest point in the room all the way down the room, the angled wall will remain totally underneath the boxed out duct. Maybe I can rent a drill for the concrete slab (and the lagging when the time comes).... or maybe a professional wouldn't cost that much. The 2X8 added ceiling joists... I was just thinking that if I use some (so some of the sheets of drywall are totally supported by new ceiling joists even though others are not), then it would be safer to add more weight (in-between joists). Nevermind that then.. I am planning to use green glue on the ceiling. I also see that the engineerd subflooring that I see between the joists above has 1/8" spacing and even a stamp on the wood that says they must be spaced 1/8" apart.. Should I caulk this 1/8" spaces to make the first leaf (the upstairs floor) more air-tight? I'm ordering some acoustic puddy to put around the vents to the upstairs.... there are some spaces where I can see light coming in from the upstairs when I have the basement dark. Thanks for your help Steve! :)On your angled walls, will there be a point at the front of the room where the wall is actually further from the concrete wall than your duct?On your angled walls, will there be a point at the front of the room where the wall is actually further from the concrete wall than your duct?
What is the minimum amount of vertical space I need for the door? I'm wondering if I'll be able to put them under the ducts for the entrance...
I'm having some second thoughts on the design. I'm not sure how to avoid 3 leaf effect while making a sound-proof vocal booth...
What type of STC is required to make a totally soundproof vocal booth... even for the occasional screamer?
I think I am going to have to have 3 leaf effect (or more) between the control room/drum room and the rest of the basement. I was planning on an entrance into the vocal booth and then into the control room... but that would give three leaf to the drum room and would require a door on either side of the vocal booth. SO then I thought about a separate entrance that is just a door, small space, and door to the main live room/control room. Then a booth built from that... see picture. It's not to scale and it's very ugly, but it gets the idea across.
The electric distribution panel has been moved... really wasn't much to it. Luckily 95% of my wiring came from the direction I wanted to move it to. $350. Woo hoo! I just have to build in an access panel to the small junction boxes... no problem.
Can anyone help with the design? I'm not sure how to best avoid the three leaf affect with the vocal booth on the entrance side.