Basement studio thread.. time to start this thing

I've been posting a couple of different questions and I think it's time to put my whole adventure into one post. The studio will be in my basement. It's a new house, and it's winter, but the basement seems quite dry. I will take the necessary precautions for moisture, but it doesn't seem like a huge problem. Here are my huge problems... Keep in mind i'm after good isolation for recording loud instruments such as drums. I have these heating/cooling ducts in my basement. I can't move them...and they appear to feed the rest of my house. The width of the room is 13 feet 3 inches, and these ducts come in 2 feet 9 inches from the one wall. I have accepted that I will have to box this part out. However, my other concern is the ducts going to the first floor. How will I isolate them? I thought about beefing up in-between the engineered joists (spanning 13 feet 3 inches accross), but all that effort would be wasted because of the ducts going to a vent right in the family room. What can I do about this to keep good isolation? I'm afraid that it may ruin my ability to have 2 leafs. I don't want to cut into the room this far either because it's a small space to begin with... I also have the basement window to deal with. A wall will be built in front of it, so I can close it up. I need to keep in mind the two leaves and the weakest link though... not too sure what to do. I also have the breaker box to deal with. I need to contact an electrician about relocating it to another section of my basement. The ceilings are 7 feet 10 inches. Here are some pics...

Congratulations -- you now have your very own project thread! :mrgreen: The area along the ducting, towards the window and the electrical panel... Would you be willing to make a utility hallway (probably about 3 feet wide) along that wall? The reason I ask is that you might be able to construct a hallway out of that, which would allow you to maintain access to the electrical panel and to keep the window intact and operable. It may not be necessary -- I'm just asking if you'd be willing to lose that much square footage. How close are your neighbors?

However, my other concern is the ducts going to the first floor. How will I isolate them? I thought about beefing up in-between the engineered joists (spanning 13 feet 3 inches accross), but all that effort would be wasted because of the ducts going to a vent right in the family room. What can I do about this to keep good isolation? I'm afraid that it may ruin my ability to have 2 leafs. I don't want to cut into the room this far either because it's a small space to begin with...

If I understand this and the pictures, the square ducting runs perpendicular to the joists across the length of your basement, but there is at least one flex duct that connects to the top of it and runs parallel to and between the joists, across the basement to the room above. Correct? If so, and given your 7' 10" clearance (from the bottom of the joists I assume) with which to work, I think you'll have to do one of a couple of things... If you attach your ceiling to the existing joists, using a resilient channel (or hat channel on RSIC clips), you'll have to box in the "parallel" duct with several sheets of drywall, or maybe even MDF... Then have a "drop down" in your inner ceiling to accommodate the thickness of the bottom surface of the box. Or maybe you can remove the duct and make the box serve as a duct, covering its inner surfaces with insulating duct liner -- and perhaps you could attach the bottom surface of the box to 2x3 cleats on the inside of the joist, above the bottom of the joist by a few inches. Since this description is hard to follow, I posted an illustration below that hopefully clarifies this idea. Yes, it is still 3 leaf, which is something you want to try to avoid doing. However, there are times that you can't practically escape a third leaf, at which point you do the best you can and try to make up for it. Using 3 layers of mass along in the middle may diminish some of the third leaf effect. It's up to you to verify that this will meet code in your area. Don't miss [url=http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4442 ]my "http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4442" thread[/url]. You also need to be careful not to overload your joists. Chances are that you aren't able to add much weight to them at all -- builders are notorious for using "the least amount necessary" to get the job done, which often gives you very few options. Here's an excerpt from [url]my "Safety During Demolition, Construction" thread[/url]:

Be sure not to overload your joists. Adding just one layer of gypsum to your ceiling could transform an otherwise safe ceiling to one that can kill. This span calculator (courtesy the American Wood Council) is helpful in determining the maximum span of a joist under a variety of weight parameters. For more information about loads and span tables, see Understanding Loads and Using Span Tables by Paul Fisette, as it appears on the American Wood Council Web site. When in doubt, consult a professional structural engineer.

You should really consider using [url=http://www.audioalloy.com/b10-00_products.html[/url]Green Glue[/url] between your mass layers. Check out my "Would Green Glue Save Lot of Work/Materials on My Ceiling?" and the "Definitive word on Green Glue?" threads over on StudioTips. Also, there's my post regarding my experience so far with Green Glue. I know you inquired about QuietRock recently -- The Green Glue concept is similar, but you assemble it yourself. Have you found out what your minimum height requirement is in your town, along with any other restrictions that may be in effect for basement conversions? You'll want to find these things out very early in your planning process. You'll need mechanical fresh air ventilation, and lots of it, to make up for your lack of windows in this living space you're building. Code requires it. Windows are more than a luxury -- they supply the room with fresh air on demand. No windows, no fresh air on demand -- unless you have a fresh air ventilation system. You need "a window that isn't a window." That's what mechanical ventilation will give you. The mechanical ventilation must be capable of exhanging all of the air in the room(s) a certain number of times per hour. In my town it's 2 ACH, which stands for 2 Air Changes per Minute, or once every 30 minutes. It's up to you to determine what code calls for in your town. I ran into this obstacle myself. For my project, I ultimately chose to use a Heat Recovery Ventilator (also known as a Heat Exchanger). Here is the point in my project thread that I decided to incorporate the a Fantech HRV. That's all the time I have for now -- maybe others can chime in with other ideas.

sharward wrote:

The area along the ducting, towards the window and the electrical panel... Would you be willing to make a utility hallway (probably about 3 feet wide) along that wall? The reason I ask is that you might be able to construct a hallway out of that, which would allow you to maintain access to the electrical panel and to keep the window intact and operable. It may not be necessary -- I'm just asking if you'd be willing to lose that much square footage.

I'm not really willing to give up that space. It would make things easier.. but this is going to be a recording studio and i'm concerned about space already!!

sharward wrote:

How close are your neighbors?

They are about 20 feet away....I haven't met them yet so I don't know how pissy they'd be about noise. I don't think they will be an issue as much as the rest of my house. Since i'm underground, once I plug up the window, and add a wall... I really don't think they will be able to hear even a drum set. To the left of me, they have their garage on that side and no windows to the upstairs... to the right of me, they have no windows on that side.

sharward wrote:

If I understand this and the pictures, the square ducting runs perpendicular to the joists across the length of your basement, but there is at least one flex duct that connects to the top of it and runs parallel to and between the joists, across the basement to the room above. Correct?

That's basically correct... The insulated ducts run perpendicular to the joists (2 of them next to each other... 1 carries the heat, 1 returns the air). Then there are 3 flex ducts that run parallel between the joists. The one goes straight to the wall (above the concrete). The other two go to the vents I have pictured above. Those are my biggest concern but I like your idea.... and maybe since the isolation isn't great (just the flex duct) between the basement and upstairs, maybe it won't be a 3 leaf after all?

sharward wrote:

If so, and given your 7' 10" clearance (from the bottom of the joists I assume) with which to work, I think you'll have to do one of a couple of things... If you attach your ceiling to the existing joists, using a resilient channel (or hat channel on RSIC clips), you'll have to box in the "parallel" duct with several sheets of drywall, or maybe even MDF... Then have a "drop down" in your inner ceiling to accommodate the thickness of the bottom surface of the box.

This is what I was planning...though I would probably have to make the box big enough to fit some insulation and an air space equal to the walls?? I'm also thinking that drywall would be difficult to work with here...especially that inside corner. I've heard that it's quite difficult to make those corners (pointing in the room) look good. So maybe I can do something with the MDF instead... Why did you suggest MDF for this particular area?

sharward wrote:

Or maybe you can remove the duct and make the box serve [b]as a duct, covering its inner surfaces with insulating duct liner -- and perhaps you could attach the bottom surface of the box to 2x3 cleats on the inside of the joist, above the bottom of the joist by a few inches. Since this description is hard to follow, I posted an illustration below that hopefully clarifies this idea.

[/b] I like this idea... I will have to confirm with an HVAC expert though... Maybe I can keep the flex duct though? And just add the drywall beneath it? It can be pushed up a few inches...Since it probably doesn't isolate very well at all, maybe it would not actually be a 3 leaf?

sharward wrote:

It's up to you to verify that this will meet code in your area. Don't miss [url=http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4442 ]my "http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4442" thread[/url].

haven't missed it!!

sharward wrote:

You also need to be careful not to overload your joists. Chances are that you aren't able to add much weight to them at all -- builders are notorious for using "the least amount necessary" to get the job done, which often gives you very few options. Here's an excerpt from [url]my "Safety During Demolition, Construction" thread[/url]:[list]Be sure not to overload your joists. Adding just one layer of gypsum to your ceiling [b]could transform an otherwise safe ceiling to one that can kill. This span calculator (courtesy the American Wood Council) is helpful in determining the maximum span of a joist under a variety of weight parameters. For more information about loads and span tables, see Understanding Loads and Using Span Tables by Paul Fisette, as it appears on the American Wood Council Web site.

[/b] They are engineered joists and supposedly can handle a lot of weight. I will probably have to contact the manufacturer.... I can't find any websites that actually talk about the actual amount of weight a 13' 3" span can take... Also.... I do plan on using green glue... at least on the ceiling since I fear that is my weakest link. I thought about springing for the extra expensive quiet drywall... it would be easier to hang. I wouldn't have to worry about shorting out the RC... it would save a bit of space. I could more easily screw "hangers" into the joists above to support acoustic traps above the drums and mix position. However, i'm not sure. It appears that 2 layers of drywall on RC with green glue would give better isolation AND cost less. SO maybe I should hire a drywall guy to do the ceiling... and stick with the RC/drywall - acoustic caulk/green glue/drywall - acoustic caulk.... What do you think??

TomM wrote:

They are about 20 feet away....I haven't met them yet so I don't know how pissy they'd be about noise.

Assume they will be pissy. Assume they will be totally unreasonable. Because even if they aren't -- even if they become your biggest fan! -- there's no guarantee they will be there forever. In fact, I believe Murphy's Law states that the most accommodating neighbor will move after you're finished building, and the "noise nazi" will move in. That's why I think it is so important to know your local noise ordinances like the back of your own hand, so that you know the legal target you are aiming for (and hopefully aim to exceed) and so that if there are any complaints in spite of your best efforts to comply, you can make sure the people who are dispatched to investigate the complaint (sometimes code enforcement officers, but more often than not, police officers) know the law that they're there to enforce. I had a conversation with one of my city's police officers recently. We were in line at an eatery and in conversation I asked how they handle noise complaints. To make a long story short, it became very clear to me that the officer did not know the law and would clearly advocate the complainer's position regardless of the facts. Bottom line: don't put the success of your project in the hands of your neighbor.

I don't think they will be an issue as much as the rest of my house. Since i'm underground, once I plug up the window, and add a wall... I really don't think they will be able to hear even a drum set.

Maybe, maybe not. But will your city allow you to simply "plug up the window"? I'm pretty certain the builder would not have put it there unless they were required to do so... So I'm going on record here doubting that they'll let you erase it like that.

To the left of me, they have their garage on that side and no windows to the upstairs... to the right of me, they have no windows on that side.

That may seem relevant, but in reality, the noise regulations probably call for the point of measurement to be the edge of your property line, not the inside of the neighbor's house. :roll:

Those are my biggest concern but I like your idea.... and maybe since the isolation isn't great (just the flex duct) between the basement and upstairs, maybe it won't be a 3 leaf after all?

The "three leaf" concern is sometimes overrated. Yes, you should do your best to avoid 3 leaf situations... But when you can't avoid it, you do your best to account for it, either by increasing the air gap, or increasing the mass, or both, or just "taking the hit."

This is what I was planning...though I would probably have to make the box big enough to fit some insulation and an air space equal to the walls??

Ideally, yes.

I'm also thinking that drywall would be difficult to work with here...especially that inside corner. I've heard that it's quite difficult to make those corners (pointing in the room) look good. So maybe I can do something with the MDF instead...

I don't know that I agree. MDF is heavy and must be cut with a saw. Drywall is also heavy but it can be cut and snapped with a utility knife. I had basically zero experience with drywall and I managed to beef up my outer leaf walls just fine. You'll get the hang of it. :)

Why did you suggest MDF for this particular area?

I dunno -- just stronger and more stable I think. :-) Others may have a different idea.

I like this idea... I will have to confirm with an HVAC expert though...

Yes, please do. In fact, don't take my word for anything! :lol: ;-)

Maybe I can keep the flex duct though? And just add the drywall beneath it? It can be pushed up a few inches...Since it probably doesn't isolate very well at all, maybe it would not actually be a 3 leaf?

I was thinking that if you eliminate the flex duct, you'll have the benefit of being able to reduce the overall height of the duct without reducing its capacity -- in fact, it may actually increase... Which may not be a good thing... So do the math to see what the equivalent volume should be. The other advantage is that it will be lined with insulation, which should cut down on the noise somewhat.

They are engineered joists and supposedly can handle a lot of weight. I will probably have to contact the manufacturer.... I can't find any websites that actually talk about the actual amount of weight a 13' 3" span can take...

Yes, hopefully the manufacturer can help you with that.

Also.... I do plan on using green glue... at least on the ceiling since I fear that is my weakest link. I thought about springing for the extra expensive quiet drywall... it would be easier to hang. I wouldn't have to worry about shorting out the RC... it would save a bit of space. I could more easily screw "hangers" into the joists above to support acoustic traps above the drums and mix position. However, i'm not sure. It appears that 2 layers of drywall on RC with green glue would give better isolation AND cost less. SO maybe I should hire a drywall guy to do the ceiling... and stick with the RC/drywall - acoustic caulk/green glue/drywall - acoustic caulk.... What do you think??

Have you priced the QuietRock stuff? It's a joke... Something like 20 times the cost of regular drywall. I would think making a Green Glue sandwich would be less costly and would offer the same theoretical benefits. Buying or renting a drywall lifter would make doing your ceiling a whole lot easier. Several on the forum have had great results with a drywall lifter. That's what I plan to do. That's all for now -- late for work! :shock: Anyone else have any thoughts? --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith! I've been reading that most prefer the clips to the resilient channel... I think I'm gonna tackle that myself. Do you know where I could get a good one that would work for the ceiling online? I see a post where Steve recommends http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... /clips.asp I'm just asking in case you've found something better since then... You're right about that stuff being rediculously priced....and I've also had a lot of trouble finding someone willing to sell it to me! About the window, i'll have to check with the right people... I've spoken to someone that deals with construction and code a lot (but for restaurants ...so this isn't anything official). But he said that the windows are there for ventilation should you need them... but they aren't a requirement. So i'll look into it, but hopefully they are right!

I'm a little unsure about how to box around those HVAC ducts... If I need sway braces to connect the frames to the ceiling joists...what about this "box"? Anyone?

Hey Tom I noticed in scrolling through your thread that your ceiling joist are just like mine. I had planned on "beefing up" my ceiling by adding 2 layers of 5/8" drywall to the subfloor along with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on RC hung from my joist. My joist are 24" OC, and are 11 & 7/8" in height I wanted to be sure about the weight so I had a Structural Engineer that came out today (BTW- that was, uh $175.00 big ones to give you an idea of the price) to give me an analysis of whether my joist could take the weight along with my subfloor and even my walls (beefing them up also). I figured, (as did he) that the walls would be no issue as I plan to glue the drywall (on my east wall...(wall that faces the outdoors) and secure it with some kind of timber along with caulking. Keep in mind, whatever he tells me was based on the structure of my house, the steel girder that runs through the basement, stress points on the level above (where the rooms are located on the floor above the studio) etc etc. He did say that even if I did use RC or put the drywall directly to the joist that there will be "some" bowing especially near the center of the room. He said that he felt the bowing would be at an acceptable degree. He said it would have been better if the joist were 16" OC instead of 24". (I'm figuring he meant if the joist were closer together that would make for stronger support of any additional weight to the joist) He said he would get back to me in a couple of days to give me his official written analysis. I had also talked with 1 other Structural Engineer last week. We talked for a good 30 min. I explained what I was doing etc etc. In the end he stated what he was going to tell me was not "official" but from all I told him he felt the joist could take the weight of the 2 pieces of 5/8" drywall on RC. (I didn't mention to HIM about the other pieces of drywall on the subfloor, but I did to the Engineer that came out today) If you like, I can let you know the results of the analysis.

Yes, I would love to hear the results of the analysis!! What is the span of your joists? Thanks!

They are 24" on center.

I mean from one wall to the next wall, how long are your joists?

Does the flex duct shown in the pic Vent to Ceiling.jpg supply air from one of the metal ducts across your studio to the upstairs room as it appears? If so, does that upstairs room NOT extend far enough toward the metal ducting to be fed directly from the metal duct? I'm trying to find a way to eliminate that flex, because as shown you're right; there's no practical way to get a 2-leaf barrier between you and the upstairs otherwise. You would need to build a serpentine duct between your trusjoists by dividing the height of the joist cavity in two, putting heavy mass layers halfway down from the top, more heavy mass at the bottom, and forcing the air to do an "ess" curve on its way to/from the metal ducting. This would require that the upstairs register is NOT really close to your studio wall, which it appears to be :cry: - only other thing I can think of is if you do the double leaf thing as above, line with duct board ABOVE the upper mass (next to the register), insulate BETWEEN the two masses, run this construct at least 2/3 of the way across the studio, and THEN either adapt from the upper half of this plenum BACK to flex duct, or find a different, higher mass way to attach to whichever duct it feeds from. Something like this... Steve BTW, metal ducting will make things more noisy too; you'd be much better off re-building those ducts using duct liner board and a layer of MDF covered with at least one layer of 5/8 gypsum. I'm sorry, but I've had ZERO time (complicated by mild flu and getting stuck working two extra 12-hour night shifts) to work on the drawing you asked for; add to that the complexity of trying to work around your obstacles, and it's not lookin' too wunnerful. What I had in mind was to power ventilate BETWEEN your outer and inner walls, but this may not be necessary if your basement is as dry as you think it is - it would be simpler then to just NOT use anything resembling a vapor barrier, so any slight moisture could normalize thru the walls. I'd still keep a dehumidifier in the room running all the time you're not using the room, and try to maintain 40-42% in the room.

Cool! 8) A different angle of what I was pretty much proposing. :D I'm glad I wasn't off by 180 degrees, as is the case more often than I'd care to admit! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

Hey Tom The span from wall to wall is 13ft at present. (See the rough draft diagram I sent) This is the measurement from one "outer" frame wall to the other "outer frame". If I were to put up my ceiling now, these would be the measurements I would use. However, I haven't built my splayed walls (inner frame) yet. Once I do this, I will have the final inner diminsions of my ceiling. I can tell you based on the splayed angles (6 degrees for the east and west walls) I'll be somewhere between 11 & 12 feet from inner wall to inner wall in the REAR of the control room. See this link for a little better smartdraw diagram. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4845

knightfly wrote:

Does the flex duct shown in the pic Vent to Ceiling.jpg supply air from one of the metal ducts across your studio to the upstairs room as it appears? If so, does that upstairs room NOT extend far enough toward the metal ducting to be fed directly from the metal duct?

Yeah, it vents to the ceiling. There are 2 on either side. Then one in the middle actually goes all the way to wall above the foundation wall. I'm not sure where that feeds to, it is probably an air intake for ventilation. Maybe that one is of lesser concern? Hmmm... well I guess their still would be a a problem getting the two leaf for that corner even though it would be directly above the studio. The room directly above the entire studio is my family room and no other room. I don't know if there was a specific reason for running the flex duct. I'm thinking there was because you'd think it would be easier to run from the main duct. There are definately intake vents in the room above straight above the main ducts. I wonder if that's why the flex ducts run for supplying the room on the opposite end to help air flow and ventilation of that room. I don't know how important that is for one room.... but I would have to get an HVAC guy out to look at it.

knightfly wrote:

I'm trying to find a way to eliminate that flex, because as shown you're right; there's no practical way to get a 2-leaf barrier between you and the upstairs otherwise. You would need to build a serpentine duct between your trusjoists by dividing the height of the joist cavity in two, putting heavy mass layers halfway down from the top, more heavy mass at the bottom, and forcing the air to do an "ess" curve on its way to/from the metal ducting. This would require that the upstairs register is NOT really close to your studio wall, which it appears to be :cry: - only other thing I can think of is if you do the double leaf thing as above, line with duct board ABOVE the upper mass (next to the register), insulate BETWEEN the two masses, run this construct at least 2/3 of the way across the studio, and THEN either adapt from the upper half of this plenum BACK to flex duct, or find a different, higher mass way to attach to whichever duct it feeds from.

I think I understand....except for the serpentine between truss joists part!? Because they are engineered joists, they don't have anything inbetween them. So there would really be a need to serpentine? The one that you see hanging down from the ceiling a bit is just a little loose. I can push it up. Actually, if this changes things, the 2 flex ducts that run on either side can be pushed up a few inches (i'll have to measure exactly how much... i'm gonna guess 5). The middle one, which I believe is an air intake, can't be pushed up as much because it goes into the inner most main duct and it's pretty tight. I could do probably 2 inches... which wouldn't be much of an air space...

knightfly wrote:

BTW, metal ducting will make things more noisy too; you'd be much better off re-building those ducts using duct liner board and a layer of MDF covered with at least one layer of 5/8 gypsum.

Well... I'm not sure, but I don't think they are metal. Unless i'm not understanding something HVAC related.. The outside is more like a very thin tin foil wrap... like the back of certain rigid fiberglass. So I'm not sure if it is metal?? Maybe it is duct board?

knightfly wrote:

I'm sorry, but I've had ZERO time (complicated by mild flu and getting stuck working two extra 12-hour night shifts) to work on the drawing you asked for; add to that the complexity of trying to work around your obstacles, and it's not lookin' too wunnerful.

No problem, i'm really thankful for the free help!!!

knightfly wrote:

What I had in mind was to power ventilate BETWEEN your outer and inner walls, but this may not be necessary if your basement is as dry as you think it is - it would be simpler then to just NOT use anything resembling a vapor barrier, so any slight moisture could normalize thru the walls. I'd still keep a dehumidifier in the room running all the time you're not using the room, and try to maintain 40-42% in the room.

OK... well I check daily for any type of moisture that I can feel... and I don't detect ANY moisture at all... not that my method here is great. I've also ran a dehumidifer for 24 hours--it's probably not the best dehumidifier in the world-- but it didn't get a single drop of water. It's also been raining a lot.... and my sump pump remains very low. (I still will put in a second one eventually just in case). I think the basement is dry. I do plan on getting a different larger dehumidifier, and running that once the studio is built. If I could avoid what you previously were planning, it would be nice! I have so many other things to worry about... it's quite discouraging not having gotten anywhere close to a finished room or even past the planning part. I sure miss recording. So just to be absolutely sure...since all the basement finishing books i've seen say to USE a vapor barrier (except that article in the reference section which advises against them). You are suggesting that I DO NOT use a vapor barrier? I was thinking no vapor barrier, and having the inner frames start an inch and a half away from the concrete filled with open faced insulation. Do you think that's a good plan? Is that far enough away from the concrete?

I have an electrician coming to my house today to give me an estimate on relocating the electric breaker distribution panel. He said on the phone that he'd basically would put a "junction box" where the current breaker panel is and then run everything from that to the new location. Then I could put a wall over the junction box and I'd still have access to everything wired to that at the newly located panel.. Then all new wiring would have to go to the new location. And he also recommended putting up all the wiring in the room above that I think I will need before building the studio... which is common sense. He said on the phone that it would probably be an expensive job..... so I'll find out exactly what that means today!

camistan wrote:

Hey Tom The span from wall to wall is 13ft at present. (See the rough draft diagram I sent) This is the measurement from one "outer" frame wall to the other "outer frame". If I were to put up my ceiling now, these would be the measurements I would use. However, I haven't built my splayed walls (inner frame) yet. Once I do this, I will have the final inner diminsions of my ceiling. I can tell you based on the splayed angles (6 degrees for the east and west walls) I'll be somewhere between 11 & 12 feet from inner wall to inner wall in the REAR of the control room. See this link for a little better smartdraw diagram. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4845

Cool...we're in a similiar situation... so i'd love to hear what the official analysis is on those joists...

According to "Choosing Electrical Junction Boxes" on the Better Homes & Gardens Web site:

Electrical codes require that all wire connections or cable splices be inside an approved metal or plastic box. And every box must be accessible -- you cannot bury it inside a wall. This protects your home from the danger of fire and makes it easier to inspect and upgrade your wiring in the future.

I don't think your electrical panel relocation idea is going to fly. You may be better off making a closet in that rear corner where the electrical panel and window are... Basically a 4' x 4' square or square-"ish" room with walls and ceiling that firmly attach to the outer leaf, and a door that opens into the closet. Then your studio walls would get close to but not actually touch that closet, with a door that opens into the studio. That would solve your electrical panel issue and your window leakage issue. And with all the money you save by not moving the electrical panel, y could get a heat recovery ventilator system and house it inside the "utility closet -- reconfigure the window to allow the ventilation ducts to penetrate it, add some beefy silencers like I've got going in my project, and you'd be set! :D All pending approval of your building officials though, of course... :roll: What do you think?

Well it's just a matter of making the space sacrifice. I do need space for racks of gear...monitors...desk with computer... drums, amps... (though they can be relocated when not in use). My whole goal is to get an isolated room where I can still have a very good mixing enviornment. I'm worried about the acoustic affects and space limitations of this room.. Thanks for looking in to that... I have 2 thoughts from that... I could do the closet idea... and work on acoustic treatment... I'd have to figure out a way to have my mixing side on the opposite side of this box (I think). Maybe this should be for the acoustic design forum. OR What you have about access to junction boxes.... well access could be very small "shutter" type of thing... or doors just to the box that would give me "access"... of course I'd have to make sure this is acceptable. But it wouldn't be a big deal at all. The main problem with access to the distribution panel is if I need to do wiring in the future. I'm worried it would be a project that would mean tearing apart some of my studio in order to wire a simple outlet to the upstairs! So I can further consider this closet idea... how do you think it should be designed so that I could still use that window as a window when the closet is opened? How would I get 2 leaves? I would have to do 2 doors? That might get pretty expensive anyway?

TomM wrote:

What you have about access to junction boxes.... well access could be very small "shutter" type of thing... or doors just to the box that would give me "access"... of course I'd have to make sure this is acceptable. But it wouldn't be a big deal at all. The main problem with access to the distribution panel is if I need to do wiring in the future. I'm worried it would be a project that would mean tearing apart some of my studio in order to wire a simple outlet to the upstairs!

Yes, exactly -- those are some of the drawbacks of the "relocate breaker panel and replace it with a huge junction box" idea, and is one of the reasons I think it's a non-starter. Even if it were "free," it would still not be an attractive option.

So I can further consider this closet idea... how do you think it should be designed so that I could still use that window as a window when the closet is opened?

I hadn't thought of keeping the window actually operable... Although it might be doable. What I had in mind was the HRV living in the closet, with its fresh air and exhaust air ducts going through the window hole to the outside world -- one aimed right, the other aimed left. Imagine that the closet already exists in the corner, with its door opening into the closet. Everything's firmly connected. Now imagine designing/building a studio with that constraint already in place, with your new studio walls being parallel with the closet walls, with the studio door in that corner opening into the studio.

How would I get 2 leaves? I would have to do 2 doors? That might get pretty expensive anyway?

Yes, exactly... With good seals too. Nobody said this stuff was cheap. ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Well I got the estimate for relocating the breaker panel and the entire thing will only cost me $380. The electrician said that it's really not that bad because most of the wiring going to my breaker panel comes from the direction that I want to move it to. So that would go with the panel. I'm pretty pleased with that price for being able to avoid building a closet that would allow me to wire to the panel pretty easily (which still would probably be difficult to wire). I think I can keep access to the junction box pretty easily. He said that they don't stick out from the wall as far as breaker panels and they are much smaller. Even if I have to build a "closet" to meet code, it could really be small...more like a cabinet than a closet. I think this would save me a lot of headaches... What do you think? Also, i've read the threads about sealing up a window... how would you recommend doing that for a single leaf? (the second leaf will be my inner wall). I think the pane is thin enough to not create the 3 leaf. I hope to match the concrete for STC. But I was thinking 3 or 4 layers of MDF (painted black on the side that faces out of the window) and then have backer rod around the window (should I glue this or just stuff it in around the edges?) Then use acoustic caulk. Then more backer rod, then more acoustic caulk...

That sounds very reasonable for moving the panel. where would it get reolcated, to a different room? Window - is this the window next to the electrical panel, and is it operable or fixed? BTW, even a thin paper on insulation, if placed AWAY from the gypsum, can cause SOME 3-leaf effects. Also, you do NOT want to put MDF right against that window, it will sweat and rot the boards (or worse) - let me know more about the window (maybe a couple of close-up pix as well) and I'll think about it - As to vapor barriers, etc, I still need more info before I can be sure - is the surface we see in the pix your raw concrete, or is there already something else added? Paint, sealant, what? It's not clear to me from the pix. I need to know your complete basement wall structure from the dirt outside to what we see in the pix, including any known drainage devices outside, gravel, everything you can tell me.... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Window - is this the window next to the electrical panel, and is it operable or fixed? BTW, even a thin paper on insulation, if placed AWAY from the gypsum, can cause SOME 3-leaf effects. Also, you do NOT want to put MDF right against that window, it will sweat and rot the boards (or worse) - let me know more about the window (maybe a couple of close-up pix as well) and I'll think about it

This picture shows the window pretty well: It appears to be operable -- which would make sense if it's for ventilation on demand.

Yeah, looked closer and finally saw the latch in the center bar; damn... Steve

Damn?? that doesn't sound good.. Around the outside is dirt. There is a window well around the window so the window is only about 2 inches visible if you would look on plane with the top point of the well. Grass goes right up to the house. There appears to be some kind of drainage from underground to the street (comes out of the side walk). I plan on regrading in the spring to help move the water away from the house (just in case). But like I said before, the basement seems pretty dry. The concrete is poured concrete and the walls inside the basement have nothing on them... no paint or anything. It's raw concrete. The window can be slid open. It's one of two in the entire basement. It also pops out quite easily. I think it's probably an extremely easy way to break in my house :? My home inspector recommended that I put a window bubble cover over it (if that makes any difference). The electric panel would be relocated around the bend beneath the stairs to the basement. The studio walls would be close to it, but it falls just outside of where i want to build. I also notice something interesting and worrying... if I take the heel of my foot and hit the concrete floor around the edges of the room, I hear a very low bass resonance..like a soft subwoofer. In the middle of the room, it's just like hitting a huge slab of concrete, i don't hear anything except my foot... no bass resonances.... Is that a problem? Or is that normal?? :?

NOT normal, YES problem... :cry: Sounds like they poured your basement floor on un-compacted earth and it settled afterward, or else there WAS water problems and part of the earth under the slab was washed away. Either way, not good. Another possibility is that you're exciting your walls, and THEY are doing the ringing; but not likely if those are your outside walls, since the dirt would be against them for damping. I'd buy a rubber hammer (the kind with a head that's about 3" diameter and 4-1/2" long) - these are easier on the body than kicking or thumping concrete with body parts - and go all around the floor checking for resonances, as well as several places inward from the walls - make a sort of "map" so you can see where the resonant points are. If there aren't too many places, you may be able to "drill and fill" - otherwise, it may be "thinking cap" time. Don't worry too much about my "damn" on the window, I was just hoping it was NOT operable - maybe you can post a pic of that outside well, and a closeup of the inside too? We don't wanna do anything that's going to promote mold here... Steve