I wouldn't mind seeing those pictures... Sorry to hear about the expense of moving your breaker panel... wowTom, There is no way that drainage pipe runs under your house, unless some one really took there time to install it incorrectly. :roll: I’m in the middle of building a drainage system for one of my down spouts and hopefully I’ll finish today… I’ll take pics and if you ask I’ll post them, although this is completely off topic of studio build. Typically houses (at least in Florida & Halifax Canada) are not built with gutters; they are put on by the home owner after the fact. You can not install a rain gutter till the roof is up anyways 8) … Also typically a drain field from the bottom of down spout is not installed by gutter contractor. The black pipe attached to your rain gutter looks like a drainage pipe mostly used in a septic tank system for drainage after the tank. You should be able to see holes in it. If it was installed correctly it should be buried in the ground, surrounded top and bottom by cheap rock and lead away from your house for X amount of feet depending on your soil type. The only problem(s) you should ever have with it is if it gets clogged or over flows. Typically by tree debris such as leaves or pine needles or depending on you roof shingles little pebble like pieces of the shingle. You should check it once a year, maybe install a clean out (place to pull it apart) and check to see if someone put wire mesh of some sort at the top of down spout to stop debris from entering. Another cause of over flow would be if it was not installed correctly with enough rocks to let the thing drain. Only adverse sound effect I could think of is noise when it rains… but rain hitting your window should be louder then water gushing through your drain field that you probably won’t hear through a concrete wall and dirt. How ever so slightly is my down spout drain field related to my studio build… the job was sparked by removing sprinkler manifold from studio wall and a chain reaction has lead to landscape work all over my house. :twisted: And Tom, you should jump up and down about having spending $350 on you electric panel move… my upgrade and move is going to cost me $2,300. Marc
Basement studio thread.. time to start this thing
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 5359.
Steve, you deserve a standing ovation for that!
The only complaint I have is, so many pictures, yet we still don't know what you look like! (Although don't be surprised if at the next Do-It-Yourself Studio Builder Wannabe convention, you hear a lot of this: "Hey, I recognize that thumb -- Steeeeeve!!!!!" :lol:
Seriously... Awesome job with the pictoral. It kind of reminds me of what I did showing off my "sheet rack," but yours is way better! :-)
there was something weird about getting a peek "behind the curtain" into Steve's world ... even seeing a "Steve hand" :shock: :shock: :shock:
that rack of clamps told me more about Steve than all of his 10,000 other posts combined i think :)
somewhere else recently we saw a photo of Steve's home-made trusses. :!: :!:
what's up with the sudden Steve-related revelations i wonder. :?
Keith - ever watch Home Improvement? My last name's really WILSON... :wink:
Tom - here's what you need for hanging your duct frame "L's" -
http://www.pac-intl.com/rsic_cwb.html
And here's a couple of clarifications -
Your boomy floor - only thing I can think of ATM is to drill half-inch holes and mix up some concrete Fix-All or similar, and inject the stuff til it squirts back out the hole, then strike it off with a putty knife. I'm not sure if there's even one made, but I'd look for a "cake decorator" type tool you can fill with the goop and force it down the hole, like a large hypodermic needle.
Or, since what you need mainly is DAMPING, you might be able to use a couple tubes of acoustic caulk (large hole in caulk tube, and use a piece of vinyl tubing over the end of the caulk tube spout so you can get the stuff deep under the slab)
You could try one or two places like that, then re-test that area to see if it deadens the ringing enough. Other than that, no idea as yet... Steve
Awesome!! Things keep making more sense!
For that spacer board (for the I joists), Would I be able to use something like a 2X4 cut down to maybe 3/4 X 4? (or whatever it turns out to be)?
Will I need a table saw for that... my circular saw can't cut 4 inches deep :? I should be able to borrow one... That's gonna have to be an accurate cut.
Thanks for your help Wilson, what the heck would we do without you!?
The spacer board has to stick out AT LEAST as far as your lower part of joist; a bit further won't hurt, you'll just need longer screws.
Or, you could use the setup I showed for cutting the length-wise half of your duct frames, only mount the 2x LENGTH-wise in the Workmate, set your long guide-board so the saw rips the 2x where you want it; set depth to maximum, make the cut, then flip the board end-for-end but do NOT switch sides, and cut again; using the guide, you should get exactly the same thickness both cuts, and the second one will finish full depth of the 2x4.
Just a thought; thicker than your bottom chord is OK so a piece of 2x lumber is fine... Steve
BTW, Keith - you saw my EYES, and just THAT part freaked you out; why would you wanna see MORE??!? :twisted:
(Yes, I'm kidding; my eyes are more bloodshot than that :wink: )
I'd like to propose this as your new avatar!Keith - ever watch Home Improvement? My last name's really WILSON... :wink:
Tom,
I updated my thread with pics of my drain feild for gutter down spout:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0807#40807
Dang, that looks like the dude at the gate in Lord Of The Rings when the good army makes it to the Gate of Sauron in the 3rd movie. The character with the crazy teeth. Pure evil looking :P MarcBTW, Keith - you saw my EYES, and just THAT part freaked you out; why would you wanna see MORE??!? (Yes, I'm kidding; my eyes are more bloodshot than that )
Evil Stevil, that's me :twisted:
BTW Tom, if you wanna rip 2x down per my first post this page, it's pix # 03 thru 05, except you clamp the board PARALLEL with the Workmate jaws instead of dangling down like that - however, I thought this thru and discovered that the second cut (on the other side of the board) will result in your clamping action working to BIND the blade; so forget it, easier to just use thicker wood than necessary... Steve
It is not a good idea to place loads off-center like this illustration depicts. It creates what is called an eccentric load that will try to twist the joist.
You should try to find a way to attach to the bottom of the joist so it hangs from the centerline.
Also, the web of this type of joist is very thin and therefore doesn't have a lot of holding power for screws or nails.
Maybe this one: http://www.pac-intl.com/rsic.htm
I have two ideas to handle this.... I would lose some heigth, but I could lower the clip and turn it around so that it goes under the bottom of the I joist... OR I could alternate the side that each is on.. So a row of clips to the left (since hat channel will run the same way no matter what), and the next row would be off to the right (so if you looked at one joist, it's clips would alternate left/right/left/right). If I do an even number of rows, the weight should be centered, right???? The only issue is the L frames over the duct would obviously be heavier than the remainder of the ceiling... Because they are engineered joists, they do not have anything inbetween them to prevent rolling...It is not a good idea to place loads off-center like this illustration depicts. It creates what is called an eccentric load that will try to twist the joist. You should try to find a way to attach to the bottom of the joist so it hangs from the centerline. Also, the web of this type of joist is very thin and therefore doesn't have a lot of holding power for screws or nails.
Why not use a clip designed for the task, i.e. to attach to the bottom of the joist. (Reference the link)I would lose some heigth, but I could lower the clip and turn it around so that it goes under the bottom of the I joist...
You would have a joist eccentrically loaded on alternating sides, kinda' like a snake... :cry:If I do an even number of rows, the weight should be centered, right????
Those clips will be fine for mounting the actual drywall, but they're designed to attach hat channel; for the "L" frames around the HVAC I don't see how they could work. Plus, if there's a way to set the isolators up into joist cavities a bit, you don't need the approximate 3/4" of space between hat channel and bottom of joists, especially where ceiling height is at a premium.
I agree that offset loads aren't good for the reasons sandersd mentions; maybe using 2x blocking between joists, toenailed thru the web - then use the CWB version hung from those blocks to support your "L" frames... Steve
OK... so use the regular clips for most of the ceiling...
For the L frame around the ducts...
What about using 2 clips instead of 1 for the L frame? Keep the CWB sides facing just as they are in the picture. They would screw into the 2inch part of the 2X4.. It would probably be easier. Picture shows screws not screwed all the way in (that's just to show that they are screws! Don't worry, i won't quit my day job) :lol:
Problem with that is that it doubles the spring rate, lessening isolation. If you mount 2x6's as blocks perpendicular to your joists and fasten the CWB's to those, it won't twist the blocks because they're too short to have that much flex; and it won't even TRY to twist your joists. Also, that lets you adjust the height of the lower bracket however far up into the joist cavity you like (provided NONE of the "L" frame or the clips touch your main structure (joists) -
That way, your "L" frames can stick up high enough to make the corners between ceiling layers and HVAC box layers easy to alternate, caulk, mud and tape... STeve
OK... can you confirm that I am understanding correctly?? The 2X6 will run so that the 6 inches runs vertically in between the joists and the 2 inches is parallel to the direction the joists go? Then the RSIC clip will be attached inside the duct frame so that it's facing the duct. That way I have a good surface for attaching drywall. How will I get the 2X6 to fit so tightly in-between the ducts?Problem with that is that it doubles the spring rate, lessening isolation. If you mount 2x6's as blocks perpendicular to your joists and fasten the CWB's to those, it won't twist the blocks because they're too short to have that much flex; and it won't even TRY to twist your joists. Also, that lets you adjust the height of the lower bracket however far up into the joist cavity you like (provided NONE of the "L" frame or the clips touch your main structure (joists) - That way, your "L" frames can stick up high enough to make the corners between ceiling layers and HVAC box layers easy to alternate, caulk, mud and tape... STeve
Right; and the other answer is - very accurate cutting, and a fair-sized hammer :wink:
Seriously, you would mark the exact locations of your 2x6's on the web of each joist (keeping in mind that they will each be different, and should line up with each other but NOT with your outer side wall, because your duct is tapered)
Each span between joists may be slightly different, so you'd need to cut each block to size. one way to do this (if you don't have a Stanley folding ruler with the optional sliding bar for inside measurements) is to use two 12" rulers and a small clamp or two - put one end of one ruler up against one surface, and the other end of the other one up against the second surface, clamp the two together, rotate til they're free and use that as your measurement to cut THAT block. Repeat til done.
Snap a chalk line (across the bottoms of your joists) from one end of your tapered HVAC box to the other (assuming you're running a straight, angled line and NOT a "stepped" box, that is) and use that line as the center point for each block; then take a framing square, hold the short side parallel to each joist and slide it along the joist til first one chalk mark and then the other (on the neighboring joist) lines up with the square. The halfway point between the two marks on each joist will be where the OUTER edge of your 2x6 block goes for that cavity. Mark a straight vertical line on the web of the joist, put one end of your block on that line, and hold it tight while tapping the other end into place with the hammer.
If you mark both sides of each cavity it's easier to line up; otherwise you'll need to check with the square many times in the process.
Plan on putting each clip in the center of it's block (halfway between joists, that is) in order to maintain equal centers for finding the frames with your drywall screws.
I'm almost outa time for now, you've got the right idea but if necessary I can sketch out my instructions above if they're not clear enough... Steve
I've read through it a bunch of times and I'm a bit confused around the part where i'm supposed to be using a framing square to line up the 2X6 blocks...in-between the joists I would LOVE a sketch if possible!! :D I was planning on framing the duct parallel to the OUTER leaf (concrete wall). It would be much easier than doing a stepped box for attaching drywall. It probably isn't worth the effort :? So the duct frame will look like it's being swallowed up by the angled wall.Right; and the other answer is - very accurate cutting, and a fair-sized hammer :wink: Seriously, you would mark the exact locations of your 2x6's on the web of each joist (keeping in mind that they will each be different, and should line up with each other but NOT with your outer side wall, because your duct is tapered) Each span between joists may be slightly different, so you'd need to cut each block to size. one way to do this (if you don't have a Stanley folding ruler with the optional sliding bar for inside measurements) is to use two 12" rulers and a small clamp or two - put one end of one ruler up against one surface, and the other end of the other one up against the second surface, clamp the two together, rotate til they're free and use that as your measurement to cut THAT block. Repeat til done. Snap a chalk line (across the bottoms of your joists) from one end of your tapered HVAC box to the other (assuming you're running a straight, angled line and NOT a "stepped" box, that is) and use that line as the center point for each block; then take a framing square, hold the short side parallel to each joist and slide it along the joist til first one chalk mark and then the other (on the neighboring joist) lines up with the square. The halfway point between the two marks on each joist will be where the OUTER edge of your 2x6 block goes for that cavity. Mark a straight vertical line on the web of the joist, put one end of your block on that line, and hold it tight while tapping the other end into place with the hammer. If you mark both sides of each cavity it's easier to line up; otherwise you'll need to check with the square many times in the process. Plan on putting each clip in the center of it's block (halfway between joists, that is) in order to maintain equal centers for finding the frames with your drywall screws. I'm almost outa time for now, you've got the right idea but if necessary I can sketch out my instructions above if they're not clear enough... Steve
If you're doing the framing parallel to your outer wall, no sketch necessary; just pick the widest spot, leave room for at least an inch inside your "L" frame there, and mark all the joists the same distance from the wall.
(If you change your mind and want to be more masochistic, let me know and I'll take the time to draw what I talked about - but I'm not looking for any extra work ATM :wink: so I doubt I'll draw that just for fun...)
Aw, wot th' heck :roll:
Thanks for the drawing Steve!!
I need opinions on my concrete floor for what to put under there... The ringing sound problem. If I drill a couple holes in the problematic areas, I think getting concrete under there will be difficult.
Any thoughts on using exterior spray insulation foam (like Great Stuff), As long as it can take the weather conditions that it could be exposed to under the house, it should expand and fill around all of the open areas.
Other than that.... what about sand? that should fill in a small hole pretty easily?
Besides the concrete issue, I think I have enough information to start getting some work done.
Another thing I want to plan, since i'm angling my walls, is a closet at the widest section for my computer.... I also need access to that junction box from the relocation of my breaker panel.
I was thinking of builing a shelf in-between the frame (about 2 feet deep, probably wide enough to fit rack ears...which leaves space before my concrete wall). The shelf will be well supported from underneath. The back will have a ledge on the bottom (so I don't push the computer all the way back to the concrete wall) and then some black fabric/curtain to cover the back part (which can be lifted for access to the junction box). The cables will come underneath and go through a hole in the drywall (i think). On the sides I could probably add fans too..
The question is what to use for the door. I'd like to use glass or acrylic... but how thick to completely stop the sound of a G5 computer?
It should only be 1 leaf thick and preferably match the NR of 2 sheets of 5/8ths drywall so I don't ruin the isolation of my room!
I found a place to buy acrylic sheets HERE
Acrylic sheet (plexiglass) has about 1.8 times the mass of gypsum, so a single piece about 3/4" thick should do it. If you use glass, 3/8" is about the same weight... Steve
Question for Steve... In the picture you drew me, you show channel on the concrete wall and then clips connected to the channel and the frame...
What about NOT using channel, but just using these clips directly to the concrete: http://www.professionalacousticsco.com/rsic_dc04.html
Should they be used on every stud? (spaced 24" OC).
Also, do I need to worry about how the frames attach to each other? The inner wall of the main studio part will extend to be the inner wall of the isolation booth.. (the outter wall of the isolation booth will be in the basement). I may not have space to do a double frame wall... so I may just use resilient clips on the outside wall (they won't be used on the inside). The angled wall will angle in to a straight wall... so I'm not sure how to attach these two frames... and do I need to worry about that? I guess the drywall here would be separated by acoustic sealent... :?
And one last stupid question... what are some good framing screws?
Those clips will work fine, you'll need to drill the concrete for small lag sheilds to fasten them. One every 4 feet is plenty, you're just keeping the wall from trying to fall over between corners, where it'll be supported by the walls that meet it at an angle.
Frames of booth - I'm on a really slow connection ATM, so can't browse around quickly - do you have an ACCURATE drawing of how you intend to build this part? If so, please link to it - if not, try to draw EXACTLY how you will place each and every board, what connects to what, etc - from your description, you'll get flanking into your booth. Less so if you use RSIC's on all the wallboard, but that gets expensive and won't cure ALL flanking as well as separate surfaces/frames.
Framing screws - normally nails are used - 16d for most framing, 10d for toenailing if the plate is on concrete. The only reason I showed using screws (those were DECK screws, basically just LONG drywall type screws) is because those "L" framing subassemblies are cut thinner and need to be fastened close to the end - so I drilled countersunk pilot holes and used screws and construction adhesive for maximum strength.
I know those will work, but I'd not show them to an inspector if you can help it; I doubt they'd conform to code. And actually, as long as you were careful not to split out the boards, 16d nails would work just as well if you use construction adhesive too... Steve