Cyeazel's project studio...... planning and preparing

Sure, I got my laugh - not sure what the price differential is, but the one reason I could think of NOT to go with the kinetics rim system is no control over the air gap. At least with either pucks or uboats you can set 2x6's on edge on 'em, fill with insulation, and lower your m-a-m frequency quite a bit without increase in weight... Steve

OK, I'm with you on the RIM system not cutting it... Yeah, their compressed fiberglass "puck-like" blocks are engineered for specific loads? I'm proposing that he go with those instead of the U-boats. They're tested up the ying yang and there are very impressive stats on them. Cost? Of course they're more expensive. Non-crap usually is. ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

RIM system - about 1" air gap, much better if used with concrete, and the more the better (up to a point) - benefits are gained by the two masses, one preferably being "infinite". IIRC, Kinetics also rely on the air gap being sealed when doing their calculations. When you're limited to 27 PSF total INCLUDING walls, you need all the help you can get to lower MSM frequency - only way I'm aware of to do this is with a wider air gap, and maximizing upper mass to near the allowable maximum. So in THIS PARTICULAR CASE, even if Chris were to use Kinetics or Mason or whoever's products, he'd STILL have to find a way to increase the air gap/damping WITHOUT increasing the weight... Steve

The last few posts have given me some great info and help. Thanks for the insights. One other plus for the uboats is that I'm able to get them at cost price so I'd not be spending much more than if I were to go with pucks anyway. Still just working on sealing up the outer shell. Big pain but gotta get it done. Pretty boring stuff for posting any pics but it's giving me the chance to do lots of planning and research too. I haven't cut my hand off with the table saw yet so I guess that's a good thing. Peace BEARS, DITKA, BEARS, LOVEY, BEARS

Now that I'm not typing on a Treo, I can offer you a direct link to Kinetics™ Fiberglass Isolator Model KIP. Look at the "Model KIP Resources" documents to see what real, grown-up, take-me-seriously isolators are made of... Like the their Static Load-Deflection Curves document. 8) U-boats, eatcher heart out. :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

What are those charts and test results even telling me? I don't understand all the terminology? I understand what the basic concept of a spring is, but when I look at those test results, it may as well be in arabic.

Turns out that the acoustician that I've recently been talking too and met with really liked the fiberglass pads too. I'm gonna look into the 4 inch thick ones first. I need some sort of price estimate first so I'll be anticipating that very soon, most likely tonight. If they turn out to be reasonably affordable, then I'd like to go with those. We'll see!!!

The first time I saw charts like this, it was all over my head. However, eventually it came to me. On this document, look at the X axis (labels on left). That's the percentage of deflection. Let's assume you are aiming for 15% deflection. That's probably a good number, given you want there to be enough of a load to slightly compress, but not so much that it compromises its integrity over many years. You also want there to be some leeway for an unusually large number of people or especially heavy equipment once in a while. Now, follow that 15% line to the right, and you'll see all of the curved lines intersect at different weights (labels on bottom). For example, Type E will compress at about 2 pounds per square inch, whereas G is closer to 4, I at 7, L at around 12.5, Q at 60, and QR at around 150. You have to do a lot of math to determine the appropriate number of pads you'll need, based on placement and relative loads you expect on the floor. You'll need more and/or stiffer pads under walls and under areas where you expect a lot of weight. If you're getting the impression that this is not an easy task, you're absolutely right. It isn't. It's probably at least 50% of your total planning time investment -- and if not, it should be. This is not something you want to just throw some pucks (or... shuddering... :x U-boats :x) at and hope for the best. While we can't do this homework for you, I think you'll have some support from others once you come up with a placement plan. I don't profess to have the answers when it comes to this stuff... But you're welcome to look at my early attempt to do this very thing way back in March of 2005, back in the days that I had thought I was going to float a floor. I'm sure it's far from perfect, but you can at least get an idea of where I was trying to go and how I got to that point. --Keith :mrgreen:

If the cost is within your budget, I too would use the 4" system including double 3/4 ply, surface floor, and 2 layers of 5/8 drywall - initially, I think my other idea would perform close to the same but over time, the fiberglass kips would probably maintain their shape factor better. Plus, since Kinetics is in the biz of doing this they should be more than willing to help you with calculations based on your needs (don't forget you'll need extra kips under your walls) - That floor layer combo should come in at around 11 PSF including the RIM system... Steve Looking at the charts, this should put msm resonance at around 10 hZ with at least 40 dB TL @ 80 hZ, maybe even better - which should mean that the low end in the room would need to reach about 95-100 dB before becoming audible downstairs, if all ELSE is built as well...

I feel a happy ending coming on. 8)

Don't get any of that stuff on his KIPs, it may cause premature deterioration :lol: :twisted:

You are a dirty old man! :lol:

Had a loooonnnggg apprenticeship, but it was worth it :lol:

Steve, if I'm able to get that amount of low end TL with the 2 layers of plywood, would I achieve an even better (lower) MAM resonance with a 2" lightweight concrete slab? Keith, thanks for the links and timely advice. I appreciate it. By the way, I received an estimate last night for the RIM/KIP pad rollout flooring. They come in rolls of 200 square feet. I'd need about three rolls for my project which would come out to about 3,900$. Yeah, it's some cash but if I'm gonna spend a lot of money for one particular part of this project, I'd like to do it with the floor. I'm also looking into these http://kineticsnoise.com/arch/icw/index.html for a ceiling system. I was thinking I could put up 2x10 joists parallel to my existing ceiling trusses (firmly coupled to outer shell with joist hangers) and then hang a new ceiling with the kinetics hangers from the joists. This might free up some additional weight for my floor if it's possible. I don't know thought, I may be missing something here. What do you guys think?

cyeazel, If you reread Steve's and my posts, you'll see what we don't recommend their "roll-out" product, because the air gap is too small. We're recommending the 4" thick KIP pads. For simplicity's sake, if you can afford (weight-wise) to use KIP pads and firmly attach your ceiling to your walls without the hangers, I'd go that route. However, I'm not strongly advising against doing the hanger thing if the aggregate total poundage requires taking the weight of the ceiling off of the floor below. --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, sorry. I guess I'm not reading the product descriptions right. So what you and steve are suggesting is just the pads and not the RIM system. It looked like steve included the RIM system in his post: [quote] If the cost is within your budget, I too would use the 4" system including double 3/4 ply, surface floor, and 2 layers of 5/8 drywall - initially, I think my other idea would perform close to the same but over time, the fiberglass kips would probably maintain their shape factor better. Plus, since Kinetics is in the biz of doing this they should be more than willing to help you with calculations based on your needs (don't forget you'll need extra kips under your walls) - That floor layer combo should come in at around 11 PSF including the RIM system... Steve Looking at the charts, this should put msm resonance at around 10 hZ with at least 40 dB TL @ 80 hZ, maybe even better - which should mean that the low end in the room would need to reach about 95-100 dB before becoming audible downstairs, if all ELSE is built as well...[quote] From what I understand, the RIM system includes the KIP pads http://kineticsnoise.com/arch/rimconcrete.html

Perhaps I misunderstood Steve's post... By "system" I don't know if he referred to the "RIM System" or building your own system with 4" thick KIP pads ala carte. Steve? :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

It looks like you can control the airgap with the RIM system because it says at the bottom of the page " 1, 2, 3, or 4 inch airgaps can be achieved". It looks like you can choose what size KIP pads you want to use with the system. I could be wrong though.

Yeah, I saw that too. RIM is probably the easiest, although possibly the more expensive option. --Keith :mrgreen:

Well after all I've learned about this whole process, I might be willing to spend the extra money on peace of mind and ease of installation. By the way Keith, back on Steve's post where he made the MAM calculation with the RIM system, he said 2 layers of plywood, 2 layers of drywall etc, etc... Was he referring to the walls when he refrenced the 2 layers of drywall or was he saying the floor should consist of 2 layers of plywood and 2 layers of drywall?

I stumbled on that too -- I'm pretty sure he's referring to drywall on the walls and plywood on the floor.

I was hoping you'd say that because that's what I want it to mean. If I can get that low of a MAM resonance with the RIM/KIP system and 2 layers of plywood and only have it weigh 11 psf, then I'm all over that for sure. I wonder if Green Glue b/w the plywood layers was assumed as well. If not, then I'd be happy to use that too if it would offer any benefit to the floor system as a whole.

That weight was calculated using a FLOOR of (top to bottom) 3/8" finish floor, 3/4 ply, 2 layers 5/8 gypsum, 3/4 ply, RIM system (4" if it's actually a product, based on the following link) with added KIP's placed under any area where walls go. http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/rimwood.html (see the link on that page to Sound Test Data, under which this doc http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/tests/pdf/A15-b.pdf shows results for 2" thick RIM. 4", if it exists, would lower mam by approx. 1 octave. However, I'm still concerned about wall weight - and there is NO WAY you're gonna support a ceiling on those walls too; you'll seriously need to get your engineer back on that one, just the walls may kill the deal. The weights I listed for the walls are based on 2 layer 5/8 gyp and 2x4 frames 24" OC. Again, unless these can be placed over (or at least close to) lower floor support structures (load bearing walls) I don't think it's gonna fly... Steve

Well, good news. I just got off the phone with my engineer and I have the go ahead (with room to spare) to frame a new ceiling using 2x8's or 2x10's (whatever) between existing ceiling trusses. I can attach the new joists along the load bearing block wall and the upstairs steel beam parallel to the wall. 2 layers of 5/8" and insulation on top is extremely well within weight capacity for the wall and beam. This also means that my new ceiling will put no additional load on the floor enableing me to use the remaining weight for just new walls. Also, any newly framed walls will be practicaly directly above the support columns and beams below which is also where the perimeter of the new floated floor will be as well. Does this make any sort of sense. If not, I'm basicaly trying to say that I can safely build.

Sic 'em, Git 'em, Bite 'em, KILL... :lol: (In case you haven't noticed, that's my twisted way of saying "go get 'em, tiger", or similar) Now, you need to analyze all the various paths a sound can/will take to get into or out of your rooms, keeping in mind the 2-leaf rule - and if EITHER leaf between you and the rest of the world will be marginal, figure out which leaf(s) you can beef up (more layers) to compensate. There's little point in a 70 dB floor if you have a single layer of Celotex for a ceiling, etc... Steve