Cyeazel's project studio...... planning and preparing

Ooooh, great timing for you. 8)

Thanks for cross pollinating Keith!! This is one of the reasons I'm loving this board .. the first is, of course, the exceptional personalities.

Chris, http://www.silentsource.com/rsic_prods.html#RSICCWBxx Second and third items on that page, depending on whether the block walls are involved (see pix) - you'll want one of these per 4 feet, and for this particular construction I'd follow Keith's suggestion on drywall sequence, as shown here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=28924 Just use steps 1 thru 4 if you're using 2 layers. Without the sway bracing, your walls could flex enough to compromise caulking/sealing between inner walls/ceiling - also, that alternate joint method will give a tighter seal should there STILL be some slight movement (and there WILL be) HTH... Steve

Thanks a lot for that. Is there any particular reason that you recomend these sway braces vs. kinetics braces? ( Just wondering. Not trying to question your knowledge or anything :wink: )

Haven't seen a Kinetics part that seemed to fit your situation - their block wall-to-frame wall one could work too (in SOME of your locations), but the others are more flexible in their application mainly... Steve

Thanks again. I will go with the silent source braces then.

Second and third items on that page, depending on whether the block walls are involved (see pix) - you'll want one of these per 4 feet, and for this particular construction I'd follow Keith's suggestion on drywall sequence, as shown here

Steve, when you said every 4 ft, did you mean every 4ft (verticaly) between each stud or every 4 ft horizontally between the frames?

Horizontally, at the top; you'd only need more than one in each vertical location if you had really TALL walls... Steve

I've had this question for a while now but can't seem to get a definate answer. Is it recommended that I still go ahead and fully wrap (for damping) all sprinlker pipes that will be above the new 8 ft studio ceiling (2 layers 5/8" w/ green glue on Kinetics spring hangers) or will the new ceiling negate the need to wrap the pipes as long as the sprinlker head penatrations in the ceiling are properly sealed. I'd just like to get as much of this "grunt" work done before any new conctruction begins. I've been busy patching up my existing block walls and existing drywall etc. etc so if I can tackle this pipe issue I'd be thrilled. I've got the material to wrap the pipes but if it's not necessary than please stop me now.

I'm not sure. I would think it couldn't hurt though.

There are two reasons in my mind that tell me that I should still wrap the pipes fully. One being to help minimize flanking between rooms, and the other to help control structure borne noise from airplanes (sprinkler system is firmly attached to existing ceiling leaf). I realize the new ceiling suspended on the kinetics springs along with the 2 ft airgap b/w leafs and insulation will help with that but I just want to make sure that the pipes are as minimal an issue as possible.

Just went back in time to make sure; you're the guy with all the free butyl "rope" :mrgreen: Haven't changed my mind since the first answer, and you're right as far as the reasons... Steve

Alrighty then. I guess I will wrap up the pipes. Thanks guys for chiming in. Well, I just got a quote from kinetics. Right off the bat I can eliminate the soundmatt stuff which will save me 150.00 The ceiling hangers are pricey but I'm not to surprised. At 42.00 bucks each they quoted me for 48 total hangers which would come out to 2,016.00 The wall braces came out at over 3000.00 but I'm not going to use these anyways. I'm gonna go with the ones Steve recommended a few posts back. Seems like they reccomend using way to many wall braces anyways. They're saying I'll need 125 for my project. That seems a little high too me but I could be wrong. The 2 inch RIM system flooring totals out at 3,699.00 plus 510.00 for PIB and another 574.00 for extra KIP pads for walls etc. etc. There's also some sealant stuff in there and some spray adhesive but I can't find these indavidualy on their site. Another 2200.00 for 2 30"x80" doors plus 2880.00 for labor for a grand total of ......................................... $15,856.68 I should be able to knock a few thousand off of this because of wall braces and possibly reduced labor costs. This actually isn't as bad as I thought it would be from a place like Kinetics. I guess we'll just have to see how this pans out.

After reading an article on Green Glues's website, it's looking like it will turn out to be a waste of time to wrap the pipes after all. The article says that external damping methods are not very effective on stiff and rigid structures and are mainly used on thin sheet metal. For stiffer materials, constrained layer damping is a better approach :x

Could you kindly share a link/URL to the article?

Sure. (The link is for the article with illustrations too. Otherwise you can read the article directy below as I copied the text from their site.) http://www.greengluecompany.com/understandingDamping.php Part 2 - What Are Viscoelastic Materials? So damping is energy dissipation, but how to we improve damping? To raise the damping of some structure, we have to treat it with a material that has intrinsically high damping - an intrinsically high rate of energy dissipation. Once this material is applied to the structure, it can transfer some of its energy dissipation abilities to the structure, and damping is raised. Essentially all high-damping materials in use today are viscoelastic damping material. A viscoelastic material exhibits traits in between elastic (springy, like a super ball), and viscous (like peanut butter). Viscoelastic materials come in two basic flavors: Extensional Damping In an extensional damping system, the damping material is placed on top. Like a coating (paint) or damping pad on the sheet metal of a car door. Damping occurs when the damping material is bent/flexed - compression and extension. When bent, the material is stretched (Extension) and compressed (Compression), and this allows it to convert some of the energy that it took to stretch and compress it into heat. Extensional damping is not effective on stiff structures, and as a result is almost solely found in applications where thin sheet metal is to be damped. Constrained Layer Damping In a constrained layer damping system, sometimes referred to as CLD, a damping material is sandwiched between two other (usually stiff/rigid) materials. An example is Green Glue sandwiched between two layers of drywall. Damping occurs when the viscoelastic center of the "sandwich" is sheared. When bent, shear forces pull and stretch on the damping material, allowing the damping materials to dissipate energy. Constrained layer damping is effective on even the thickest/stiffest structures, giving it an enormous advantage over extensional damping in many applications.

Get a hammer - bang on one of your pipes, do it several times with a SLM reading the sound level (fast response, C weighted) - then, wrap some of your "magic rope" around the pipe in a spiral, making sure to NOT keep the distance between wraps constant, and re-do the test - if it's not quieter (assuming similar hammer swings) then I wouldn't bother. But I think it will be... Steve

Interesting. I'll do that and see how it works. I always assumed that I should leave no space between wraps making a solid "skin" over the pipe. Thanks for the tip. Just out of curiosity, why should you not keep the distances between wraps constant?

It's possible (though probably not very likely) that you could turn your pipes into a tuned resonator by having all the spirals of butyl the same distance apart; by spacing some of the spirals closer together or further apart, you'll NOT have any one section of pipe able to resonate at the same frequency between spirals of butyl rope. Think of your pipe as a large guitar string - now, consider what you do when you're playing open harmonics at different points along the fretboard, and picture what the STRING is doing at the different nodes/antinodes along its length - finally, consider whether that same string could make as much noise if you arbitrarily MOVED a couple of its nodes down the length of the string by some random amount... Steve

Can anyone point me to a product that would be affective in decoupling steel pipes (sprinkler) and drywall where the pipe penatrates thru the drywall ceiling.

Welcome back, bro! Mason Industries sells special Neoprene decoupling sleeves. --Keith :mrgreen:

What's up Keith. It's been a while. I've had a lot of things going on over the past few months but have still been slowly working on the studio. Just had a baby girl in fact. Thanks for the info on those sleeves. I'm interested in this model http://209.200.80.33/html/sws_pipe_seal.htm Are these the ones you were refering too?

That's the one! 8) I'm glad you were able to locate it. I was posting from my Smartphone so I didn't have the opportunity to locate it for you. Congrats on the baby arrival, Daddy-O! --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith. I'm gonna go with those sleeves then. Yeah, being a dad is awesome and kind of scary at times. I just know that I love the little thing every time I see her and am with her. Oh, and sorry to everyone for having a really slow, boring thread. As soon as progress is made, I'll post some pictures.

Any chance you can leave the existing sprinklers in place, then run new lines to the studio interior with exposed pipe? Mason Industries makes pipe penetration resilient seals - fire rated too as I recall.

Keith, after re-reading this post from a while back, I now realize I didn't read it correctly the first time. Anyway, the mason sleeves are what I plan to use now. So, after jumping around between thoughts and ideas throughout this thread, I've finally got some news to report as well as some feedback on my design I've attached a sketch of a design plan that I've come up with based on the limitations that I have. The limitations include available space, budget, and additional floor loading. The areas colored in yellow represent where the RIM flooring and new wall frames will be. (The areas in yellow are also where there is additional floor dead load capacity). The new inner leaf ceiling mass will not be an issue with regards to floor weight as it will be supported by the I-beam and load bearing block walls (engineer approved). The new ceiling will be hung on kinetics ICW ceiling hangers. Questions: 1) How do things look in terms of correct angles and room size? 2) Am I better off building rectangular control and live rooms and then treating with proper acoustic products or is angling the framing (as drawn in the sketch) the more efficient way to go in terms of preventing the need for certain types of acoustic treatment?

John, or anyone else who sees this, what do you think of the control room layout in the drawing in the previous post?