Carsten's Nightsky Studio Thread

We finally stared to work in the shed where my little studio will be. You can find some pics on this site: http://www.nightsky-music.de/studio.htm I will try to find out how to post my pics direcly to this thread. C.

Wow! The photos are fabulous! 8) Inserting photos in this thread, when they are hosted on another server, is quite easy. Just do this: Caption can be placed here Caption can be placed here Caption can be placed here The photos are already an appropriate size, so it will be very easy! :mrgreen: I thought about doing it for you, but I thoght you would like to add your own captions. :)

Yes, thanks sharward! So this is how it works. This is the building: I made this drawing with aid of John. [url=http://www.nightsky-music.de/fotos,abbildungen/fotosstudio/Bauplan1.jpg] CLICK TO ENLARGE IMAGE[/url] Today we layed the concret floor inside. After another wall has been made we will start with the floating floor in about a week. Any ideas, suggestions, comments are welcome! cheers Carsten

Thanks for your help, Keith!!! ciao C.

Hallo Carsten, ich wünschte ich könnt hier so was bauen... Großartig! I would keep from using Laminat for the floors, because of static electricity loading. We had that in one room and had big problems because we allways got hit by the static electricity. Also it still is not clear how you can dump it when break it out later. In my next room i will use only osb on top or real wood. (ready made floor - Fertigparket). Harald

No Laminat? It's used everywhere around in this forum. f.e: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=285 What do others think? cheers C.

Carsten, Laminat has become very hip for the last years, but (for me) it is allways second choice, because it is chemical prepared wood (if there is any wood in it at all) and if you dump it its critical. It is easy to handle and cheap, but if you can use something else, think about it. Something from oekotest (in german): http://www.carechannel.de/cgi/ot/otgs.cgi?suchtext=laminat&doc=35462 http://www.carechannel.de/cgi/vb/vbgs.cgi?suchtext=laminat&frage=36077 What about Kork? Harald

Hi Harald! Thank you for your advice! Yesterday I talked to a friend who did a lot of building and he confirmed your statement. He worked a lot with Parador floors as they produce in a city nearby (Coesfeld). He had the idea to ask them to take some laminat out of the production before it gets the final finish. Maybe not a bad idea. He suggested cork too, but I want to make the floor reflective preventing the room from getting too "dry". cheers, C.

Hi Carsten, what about OSB (18 or 22 mm)? I want to use OSB plates for my controll room and then paint it or use oil/finish. (in german:) http://www.oekotest.de/cgi/ot/otgs.cgi?suchtext=osb&doc=27606 Harald

I'm planning to use OSB as the first layer on the floated woodbeam construction. As a finish I find it a little too rough. groetjes C.

Hi everybody! During the last two days the rearwall has been made. We left the big hole to have the option to build a relaxing room or another recording room later and to have some more space to work. It will probably be closed when we have finished the floor. With the new concrete floor and the wall in it the room begins to take shape. And we are more proud of the work beeing done every day. :D Today I received the neoprenpads. Do you think floor joists of 6,5x5cm are strong enough to carry the floor? If anyone has ideas, comments ...please let me know! What does Knightfly think? cheers Carsten

Wonderful photos! 8) It's like being there! :mrgreen:

I made a more detailed sketch of the inner construction: What do you think? Carsten

That looks like a pretty open, quiet site; what is your purpose for the floated floor? Steve

Guten Tag, Carsten! I have some questions. According to the illustration the neoprene pucks appear to be wider than the joists. While that does stabilize them somewhat and make them less likely to slip off, I believe that will have an adverse effect on their ability to deflect. You probably already know that you need to be extremely careful to calculate the weight of your structure so that you do not risk overloading or underloading your elastometers (pucks). I'm concerned that by putting pressure on only a portion of the puck, it will not have opportunity to squeeze out to the sides -- which, as I understand it, is critical in the performance of the puck. Perhaps I'm worrying too much... But I would hate to see all of this beautiful and difficult work be compromised by something that some careful calculations and trimming would have addressed. Steve (a.k.a. Knightfly), what are your thoughts on this? Finally, the "enlarged" version of that illustration is indeed very large -- 2626x2359! :shock: (The small one is quite nice though at 500x449. :) ) --Keith Nein, Ich kann nur ein Bisschen Deutsch sprechen... Ich habe für drei Jahre Deutsch in der Schüle gelernt!

My thoughts are first, whether there is any real need for floating the floor at all; after that, we can get into more detail... Steve

Guten Morgen, Steve und Keith! Danke für eure Antworten! (Thanks for your replies!) Steve wrote:

That looks like a pretty open, quiet site; what is your purpose for the floated floor?

The studio is a project of a good friend of mine (Martin) and me. We are building it on Martin's father's farm. He is an old man (seventyeight) who lives there with his other son who just recovers from a severe cancer operation. That is the reason why our first goal is NOT to disturb anyone in the slightes way. The living house lies behind another quite big barn some 30 meters away from our studio. There are other neighbours ca. 100 meters away. We will use it as a recording studio, rehearsal room with my funk-band, and as a room to practice. I am playing mostly acoustic Jazz and some Funk at moderate volumes, but we would like to have the option to record, let's say the garage-punkband from the next village. Here are a sketch and some more photos: Keith wrote:

According to the illustration the neoprene pucks appear to be wider than the joists. While that does stabilize them somewhat and make them less likely to slip off, I believe that will have an adverse effect on their ability to deflect. You probably already know that you need to be extremely careful to calculate the weight of your structure so that you do not risk overloading or underloading your elastometers (pucks). I'm concerned that by putting pressure on only a portion of the puck, it will not have opportunity to squeeze out to the sides -- which, as I understand it, is critical in the performance of the puck.

I understand your point! Indeed I read somewhere it would stabilize and prevent the joist from slipping off. To be honest, I did very little calculation jet, because I still had to figure out so many different factors like which materials to use etc.. Another point is that is difficult to get information about wheights of materials. I guess I've been too carless about that point. Is there a way to calculate how much weight can rest on a certain anount of pads?

Finally, the "enlarged" version of that illustration is indeed very large -- 2626x2359! (The small one is quite nice though at 500x449. )

Yes, I'll fix that! :oops: When I'm working on a new sketch I always want to see it as big as a football field :D Your help is really precious to me, Vielen Dank! Carsten

Guten Abend! Great photos and great explanations!

To be honest, I did very little calculation jet, because I still had to figure out so many different factors like which materials to use etc.. Another point is that is difficult to get information about wheights of materials. I guess I've been too carless about that point. Is there a way to calculate how much weight can rest on a certain anount of pads?

My project thread covers this subject quite a bit. I actually went to a machine shop and had them do some tests to determine weight:deflection ratios. Note that my floating floor plans are have changed a lot since then, but you can still benefit from the points about measurements and such. I know it's a long thread -- sorry!

Hi Keith! I read halfway through your thread now and I actually begin to ask myself if I should scrap my plans of building the studio during the upcomming six weeks. (My summer hollidays) You did a great job in reseraching, planning, calculating and including advice! I will definitly read the second half tomorrow. (I already had a short glimps at your plans to rip out the concret floor) Fortunately I found out one good point in reading your thread: I do not have to deal with any building department, building codes, inspectors and last but not least our project does not have to pass any "wife test". :) Í am curious what you and Nightfly think about the "to float or not to float" question! Could I achieve an acceptable sound reduction without floating the floor? Carsten

Hi everybody! Here are some more details and thoughts about my room: All outer walls are already a kind of mass-air-mass construction as the are being made out of two bricklayers with an insulation filled air gap. I think the weakest link in my room is the ceiling, which is from an acoustical point of view, not even existing. It only consists of one layer of hardfoam tiles (warmth insulation), connected to the trusses that carry the roof. Here is a sketch and some photos: After I read some threads in this forum and in the Acoustics Forum I came to the conclusion that my last inner construction sketch is absolutely worthless. :( What I understood from it is: 1. You need to have a mass-air-mass construction to achieve any useful transmission loss. (Which was not the case in my ceiling construction, being directly connected to the outer ceiling) 2. Floating floors can be the “extra mile to go” and in some cases where you have no direct neighbours, your room is freestanding and your concrete slab is on the ground (all this is the case in my room) they may not be necessary. 3. Floating floors have to be heavy otherwise it’s resonance frequency can be in the audible range (up to 300hz). I really took into consideration not to build a floating floor at all, as I also have to do with the height of my room. To build a heavy floating floor and a reasonable solution for the ceiling would leave me with a room height of probably 180 cm or less on the lower side of the building. Maybe something like this instead? All comments welcome! Ciao! C.

Guten Morgen, Carsten! Sorry, I missed your post (directed to me) yesterday. I think I know exactly how you're feeling right now -- you put your heart and soul into what you think is a well researched design, only to learn after doing more research that it very well might need to be redone! :roll: I think you are wise to reconsider floating your floor, and are especially wise to "go back to the drawing board" regarding your roof/ceiling situation. It looks like you have reached the (correct) conclusion that, on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being best), if you have a "9" floor and "7" walls with a "3" roof, you basically have a "3.1385" room. :? (Bitte -- Ich vergesse: a "3,1385" room. ;) ) While you do not have some of the same constraints that I do (building department, "wife test," etc.), you do have very strict isolation requirements, given how close the building is to the house and the fact that peace and quiet within the house is very important. Your three points (your "What I understood from it" items) are 100% correct. The corregated roof you have is going to be, I think, your biggest challenge. It seems very similar to the roof on John's Costa Rica project. I suggest that you read that thread very carefully. Unfortunately, the thread is in a bit of a lull right now. Have you noticed that there are plenty of of started projects in this forum, but very few finished projects? :? Your situation of wanting to build during your summer holidays -- I can relate. I wanted to build mine before the summer, because it gets quite hot here (e.g., it hit 100F/38C yesterday). Obviously, I haven't started building yet. :roll: ...But I hope to begin soon. Just as soon as I determine whether or not I need to float my floor. :evil: As far as your latest "existing construction" drawing is concerned... :?: Why are you not allowed to rip out your hardfoam ceiling? :? I believe you will end up with a third leaf (because air does not pass through hardfoam). :shock: I need not tell you that is not good. :arrow: I think you already have a two-leaf outer wall -- is that correct? If so, then you may only need to add mass to the inside. I'm not the expert here though. Hang in there... You will get the help you need here to get your plans in order, but you may need to be patient. (I know... That's hard when the days going by when you want to be building. I sympathize. :roll:) --Keith

Hi Carsten, I think you are on the right track here. Although I'm not an expert so take this for what it's worth. Although this is a three leaf roof, what can you do about it? Not much. Three leafs are pretty common with roofs, it's hard to avoid. I'm going to have one, Keith's going to have one, etc. Although yours may be worse because it's a small airspace. then again it may be ok because it appears fairly light weight. All things considered, this particular third leaf may cause effects in a high frequency range which is better than if it were low. But i don't know for sure. Triple leaf systems are complex to figure out, and as i said i'm no expert. I have a similar situation with one of my planned double walls being up against a garage door. that will be a triple leaf. but i'm actually going to make the gap as small as possible in hope of keeping any resonaces out of bass range. But what i really wanted to point out is that your inner joists appear very "light" to carrry your new inner leaf ceiling. (not sure about the existing joists -- do you know if they can carry the extra weight?) maybe this is just that you didn't diagram your wood members accurately, but the inner leaf joists look like they are about 40mm thick. this is way too thin to carry two layers of gypsum. even if you use 55mm as in your walls you will not be able to span many of the distances in your plan safely. maybe you already realized this, but i wanted to make sure because it will also affect your finished ceiling height. also -- what is that brown line above the top yellow layer of insulation? there should be nothing solid there, not even paper or foil. and the airgap in my opinion should be completely filled with insulation, it makes a difference according to what i've read. dan

Keith, Dan, Thank you for your detailed help and your encouraging words! Keith wrote:

I think I know exactly how you're feeling right now -- you put your heart and soul into what you think is a well researched design, only to learn after doing more research that it very well might need to be redone!

Jep!

Have you noticed that there are plenty of of started projects in this forum, but very few finished projects?

I think a lot of people join this forum with the assumption that it will be easy to improve their acoustic situations with only a little information. (point 6. on the MMS (mere mortal scale :mrgreen: )). http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3521 I guess arriving at point 11. 80% of those people either give up or do just something they think might help. Not worrying “about every nook and cranny”. :cry: :arrow: Some good news about our project is that another friend joined our building team. His name is Rainer and he has a lot of experience in drywall-building. (He even ran his own company) He is excited about building a recording studio and has all the tools you can possibly dream of (screw guns, nail guns, saws …) Keith wrote:

Why are you not allowed to rip out your hardfoam ceiling?

I don’t know what farmers are like in the US but here they can be - let’s say a little obstinate (I hope that is the word I was looking for). He helped us with a lot of things and had no problem with the idea of having some freaked out musicians as his new neighbours. I know that a third leaf is not good, but no way we could convince him that it could be necessary to remove that hardfoam ceiling! :evil:

I think you already have a two-leaf outer wall -- is that correct?

Yes, 30 cm thick with a 5cm insulated airgap. Dan wrote:

(not sure about the existing joists -- do you know if they can carry the extra weight

Yes, I think so. They are 17,5 x 7,5 cm and in perfect condition.

maybe this is just that you didn't diagram your wood members accurately, but the inner leaf joists look like they are about 40mm thick. this is way too thin to carry two layers of gypsum. even if you use 55mm as in your walls you will not be able to span many of the distances in your plan safely.

You are right. They are 6,5 cm thick in the drawing but the longest joist has to be longer than 6 meters! Yesterday we had the idea to strengthen them with a metal tube (Which Rainer has done sometimes before).

also -- what is that brown line above the top yellow layer of insulation? there should be nothing solid there, not even paper or foil. and the airgap in my opinion should be completely filled with insulation, it makes a difference according to what i've read.

The brown line is the inner joist. It appears only because the insulation between it is 1,5 cm thinner. I fixed that one in the new sketch. (No chance on the “drawing of the year” price, I guess.) I worked on the last two sketches and included another idea we had yesterday (B). I’m really not sure about that one because the hardfoam is completely airtight and serves IMO not as an “air” in an M-A-M construction. What do you think? I hope I will reach point 18. on the MMS soon 8) . Thanks again for all your help! Carsten

DanFanCazy wrote:

:arrow: Some good news about our project is that another friend joined our building team. His name is Rainer and he has a lot of experience in drywall-building. (He even ran his own company) He is excited about building a recording studio and has all the tools you can possibly dream of (screw guns, nail guns, saws …)

This is good news! But, I must administer a warning. While it is good that your friend is excited about building a studio, your friend will need to be extremely careful -- maybe much more careful than he thinks he has to. Plus, with all due respect to him, he may make mistakes without even realizing he's making them. :shock: Please see these drywall contractor horror stories:

aschatzb's "DryWall Contractor Screwed Me" Thread Bob's "Suggestions needed to quiet kitchen floor above apartment" thread (on recording.org)

Keith wrote:

Why are you not allowed to rip out your hardfoam ceiling?

I don’t know what farmers are like in the US but here they can be - let’s say a little obstinate (I hope that is the word I was looking for). He helped us with a lot of things and had no problem with the idea of having some freaked out musicians as his new neighbours. I know that a third leaf is not good, but no way we could convince him that it could be necessary to remove that hardfoam ceiling! :evil:

Wow. (Yes, "obstinate" is the word alright! :? ) That's really unfortunate. The guy seems really supportive in many ways, but his insistance on keeping that hardfoam insulation seems to be based on emotion and ignorance. You're probably also afraid to press the issue out of fear that he may withdraw his support on the project altogether! :shock: Does he understand that it may very well be in his best interest (in terms of isolation) that the hardfoam be removed?

I think you already have a two-leaf outer wall -- is that correct?

Yes, 30 cm thick with a 5cm insulated airgap.

Well, then, I'm concerned about the latest drawings, because you now have three leaves for your walls: rick-air-brick-air-gypsum. :roll: I'm not expert enough to know how this will hurt your isolation.

They are 6,5 cm thick in the drawing but the longest joist has to be longer than 6 meters! Yesterday we had the idea to strengthen them with a metal tube (Which Rainer has done sometimes before).

:shock: No way. :shock: 6 1/2 centimeters is only 2.5 inches -- there is no way you could hang anything on that! :shock: Maybe 16.5 cm -- and you don't want a "maybe" as an answer.

I worked on the last two sketches and included another idea we had yesterday (B). I’m really not sure about that one because the hardfoam is completely airtight and serves IMO not as an “air” in an M-A-M construction. What do you think?

Sorry, I don't see how that is possible. I see an air gap in both A and B -- although the air gap in B is smaller, but that is not necessarily a good thing. We'll need some more expert advice here. I'll be interested in seeing that myself!

Carsten - I'd treat your double brick wall as one skin and I'd dismiss your tin roof as a skin. I'd do it like this cheers john