seeking guidance- studio/practice room

Hello, Great Forum! Thankyou all so much!!!! All though I have seen some of my questions posted I am still unclear on many aspects of my situation. I have a attatched a sorry attempt to show what I have going on. This project should begin in about 3 weeks. I am planning on a space that is: 1. Practice/Jam room for 3 piece rock band. 2. Recording room 3. Graphics/ Mixing room. I would like to have the space/s as sound proof as I can without spending an arm and a leg. We live in a country enviroment and have no problem with neighbors. The ceiling will have a 14' ft. peak in the practice/recording room and I can finish it with Teak or Sheetrock. For the little cpu/mixing room I am open to suggestions on the ceiling design. The smaller room (the room that has the door to the outside) is already in exisitance. Cinder block walls and cement floor. the sized of this room is 9'1" x 9'7" (the pratice/recording space will be 13' x 15') The main part of the construction will be cinder block walls, cement floors, Zinc (tin roof). I can use metal or wood studs and rafters for roofs and any inner walls if needed. I have access to 1/2 sheetrock and semi rigid fiberglass as well as a pro drywaller. The double windows dividing the cpu/mix room for the Practice room can be made by a company here that produces vacum sealed framed units for this purpose. The other windows and doors I am open to suggestions. I was thinking of some sort of removable insultation. Among many questions thatI should be asking... I am wondering about the cinder block.....should I fill the holes with sand? and then frame a wall on the inside with insulation and sheetrock? Also I was planning on investing in bass traps, clouds etc... later on down the road as needed. Sorry to be so scattered...I am excited and confussed. Basically want to end up with a nice place to jam and record. I do not want to waste time or money on techniques that will be useless because of weak places in the design. Thanks for any help you can give. John :D

I'm new to forums, If there is a certain format or way in which to ask for help or if my questions are to redundant just let me know. John :?:

Hey Copper, welcome to the forum. Sometimes the experts here get very busy with their careers and personal lives, so there can be delays of several days before you get a response to your questions... Especially when the post has as many questions and points as yours does. You are surrounded by fellow soon-to-be studio makers who can relate to your present state of confusion and excitement. :cool: Your thread is being viewed, and I'm sure it's inspiring ideas and interest. Since the advice posted here is usually free, we sometimes need to be patient in what can often be a long line of those before us, some of whom are actively building their studios and may require speedier responses. Also, note that knightfly is especially busy right now and has asked us to be a little more patient than usual. I'm assuming you've already read the "Before You Post" announcement, along with the "Reference Area" announcement that is linked from it. If so, it never hurts to read them again -- I think I pick up something every time I look at them. You are wise to come here for help before you begin construction. You'll be even wiser to make sure that you have all your plans down solid before you start to build. Starting in 3 weeks? Maybe. I used to have a "start date" in my mind, which kept moving back. Finally, I decided that "I'll start when I'm ready." I'm going to do it once, correctly. Hang in there, Copper... And get ready for an education! :mrgreen:

John, welcome to the board; if isolation isn't your main concern, then just filling the block with sand may be enough; that would leave you more room inside for acoustic treatment, which you'll definitely need with concrete walls. Tin for roof - is this corrugated, or flat with ridges every 200mm, or what? I'm asking because this may make it necessary to put more layers of drywall on the inside to combat the multi-leaf situation you're getting yourself into with the ceiling. If you want really good isolation between your Control Room (CPU room) and the live room, you'll need a double framed, well-insulated and caulked wall between them; a window makes it harder to get good isolation, but with heavy enough glass and a wide enough air space it can be done. A sketch of what you plan for a roof, starting with the tin and including every detail through the roof into the innermost ceiling layer, will be necessary to see if you're on the right track there. Hopefully we can help you get where you're going... Steve

BTW, Keith, getting closer to an end on the video project; burned a test DVD about 2 am, still need to tweak a couple of audio segments for level, re-caption 5-6 stills, cut one more small glitch out of one video clip, write/record something "modern corporate" for a music bed, and clip a flashy still from the video for cover art and the printable DVD - other than that, it's finished :roll: Steve

Heys, thanks for the welcome and the replies! Steve, the Tin is the corragated type. So far in my home it's: Corragated Tin(zinc) screwed into 2x2 wood nailers...the nailiers are nailed to 2x6 rafters. The sheet rock can be under the nailers and above the rafters or? Sometimes here we use Teak tongue & groove below the nailers and ontop of the rafters. I also have this insulation material that is about 3/8 maybe 1/4 in. thick foam like material...white on one side and aluminium (silver ) on the other side. The Rain and thunder can get quite heavy and loud here..and could possiblly effect a recording. As far as the Control room....As it stands it would be cinder block either filled with sand or pure cement....or left hollow and maybe attacth insulation and sheetrock to one side? I am definetly not a pro and most likely don't need the best separation but..if there are a few options within my grasp to make it decent then why not. I was also wandering about the cieling with the 14" peak? is that good or? Would there be any reason to make a drop ceiling (flat) that starts at 8 ft. and slopes up to 9 ft. so that it is not parallel to the floor. Again thanks so much!!! John

here are some other drawings.

ceiling from inside looking up.

John, can you do a cross-section drawing of your planned ceiling, starting at the roof tin and showing layer by layer til you reach your inner space? That will give us something to discuss. Thanks... Steve

Hi Steve, hope this helps :D John

Go on, Steve. Give it to him. You know, the "drawings of the year" award. That's OK. I can handle it. :cool:

Hi Steve, I do not want to come across to rude and i do realize this is on your time. Just about to order materials for this project and wanted to see if you could check in and see what ya think regarding the roof illustration? Thanks again! ps. If there is any thing i can do art-graphics wise for you let me know! http://www.coopwoodart.com

John, you are about as far from "rude" as anyone could get and still be alive, no need whatever for apology. I've been so tied up trying to make sure the opportunity of a lifetime doesn't get away from me, I've missed more than a few members' needs - hopefully I can stay up on this better now (at least for a while) - Your drawings, as Keith so jealously :wink: pointed out, are wonderful; they show everything needed, except an answer that will work for you :cry: By that, I mean that if you just put mass on the bottom of your roof rafters, and only have the light corrugated metal for the upper mass, then your mass-air-mass situation for the roof won't stop much of anything in the way of sound - Ventilation-wise, that's the way to build it - it allows the metal to breathe, and will therefore keep your framing from water/moisture/mold damage. Unfortunately, that's not what works for sound isolation - for that, you need as heavy a mass as can be supported, then an insulated air gap as wide as you can get, then ANOTHER mass, so that anywhere you don't want sound to go there is a mass-air-mass barrier in the way. The corrugated shape of the metal makes it nearly impossible to put MORE mass at that position, because the air spaces caused by the corrugations make almost all of the outer skin act as a THIRD LEAF of mass - this can (in a limited frequency band) make mids to high mid frequencies better isolated, but it raises hell with low frequency isolation by creating resonances which allow those frequencies to pass through the "barrier" too easily. IF this type of roof is necessary, the only way I know to "compensate" for its weak sound isolation is to put EVEN HEAVIER MASS right below the 2x2 stringers, using heavier framing for support, then insulate the cavities between these heavier rafters, then put another (preferably decoupled) heavy mass UNDER these heavier rafters - this gives still a 3-leaf construction, but the heavier masses will (somewhat) make up for the extra (corrugated) light leaf. I didn't mention air/vapor barriers in this explanation yet; I would need to know more about your climate and whether you heat the space or cool the space more of the time. If sound isolation is AT ALL important to you, please wait to build until we've covered this in more depth... Steve

Am I the only one who thinks that the roof should be ripped off entirely and replaced with one of a different material? :?

Nope - just not sure it's practical in that location :?: :?:

There is a spray material made specifically for metal roof deck that has excellent sound deadening properties.......... I located this for Wes once a few years back - give me a day or 3 and I should be able to locate it again. Rod

Thanks once again!! all of you! The climate is either fairly dry and dust for 1/2 the year and humid and muddy for the other half. (Dry tropical rainforest). In the dry season we can have wind gust up to 50 mph. and then some. I was planning on a mini split. Compressor outside. Also...I may be able to do a pored cement cieling and then a drop cieling under that? Depends on funds and some structual situations I need to look at. I am interested in the foam spray as well!!! Was actually wondering if there was some type of spray or fiberglass that i could compress and/or glue onto the bottom of the corragated zinc? john

John, guess Rod missed this in his busy schedule; wnat are you trying to accomplish with a foam spray - damping, air seal, or??!? Because foam has ZERO use for sound isolation, due to the nearly zero mass. Any further info on using concrete, structural, etc?? Steve

Hi Steve, I was thinking that by using some type of foam or fiber glass product bonded to the corrugated tin I could create 1 solid mass. Now I am pretty much set on actually pouring a cement cieling and then adding a drop cieling using 2 sheets of sheetrock. (going to adventually build my art/painting studio above). so... 13' x 15' cinderblock(filled w/sand) and a 4 in. cement ceiling with a drop ceiling ( gypsum) one foot below and slightly angled. any input on this? JC

I'm no expert here but 4" of concrete oughta do the trick for your outer leaf. Underneath the concrete ceiling you're gonna need to add you're inner leaf as you would on the walls so that you can add dampening between the 2 layers.

Agreed; that is a good plan for a mass-air-mass system, the deep air space should be at least half-filled with fiberglass insulation, NO BACKING of any kind, and preferably two layers of 15mm drywall (gypsum) for the inner drop ceiling. Be carefull NOT to put anything that can act as a vapor barrier, in any location other than required by your local codes; with your "half and half" climate, I'm not sure where your building people requre this but the MAIN thing is to NOT put TWO such barriers; the construction needs to be able to "breathe" to one side or the other... BTW, foam and the like is 99.9% WORTHLESS for soundproofing or insulation in this application; I'm glad you saved me the trouble of convincing you... :) Steve

[quote="knightfly"]Agreed; that is a good plan for a mass-air-mass system, the deep air space should be at least half-filled with fiberglass insulation, NO BACKING of any kind How Vital is it to have the space half filled or filled at all? Just economically and acousticly(spelling?) curious in a sound quallity way..not in a sound proofing way. Thanks, john

You need that cavity at least partially filled, besides improving isolation it will also damp the inner ceiling panels so they don't ring at their resonant frequency - probably 6-8 inches of fiberglass would be enough for that... Steve