Studio Design for a 28' by 22' garage

hey mike, good to hear from you again! i'm not going to be much help but if i could give my 2 cents, i would say that yes, you need ventilation to get fresh air in. because if you have a lot of people in there it's going to get stuffy, and it's not going to seem very professional. i don't think air is going to circulate that well when there's only one door open to the outside, in that big a space with several rooms. plus you might just pass out and die during a long mixing session. i would not think about trying to extend your house a/c, because it is probably not large enough and your studio, especially the farther away rooms, are too far away. the existing system will not push the air that far or cool that volume of air. i have an undersized system for my house size and i can tell you it's not very good when it gets hot, it barely does anything. you're in stockton. when i lived in sacramento i ALSO had an undersized system (again, doh!) and on a hundred degree day the inside temp was still in the low 80s with the AC on constantly. for the same reason i would not try to upgrade the existing system but just get a different (appropriate sized) system for the studio. for another thing, you may have different needs in the studio and house as far as temperature. also, if you do it correctly you can have the a/c in your studio be pretty silent, so you don't have to turn it off while recording. i'm pretty sure of that. you just have to design it properly particularly have large ducts/ low air velocity. there are methods. i've seen many people on the forums describe a/c so quiet you can't even tell it's on unless you feel the air. other than my thougts on a/c, which are just the ramblings of a non-expert type person, i don't know anything more to contribute except when i put my wallboard up against my stucco im going to make sure it's VERY smooth with no voids. i'm going to probably do some of that this weekend so i'll post my observations an pix in my thread next week. one thing i think may help is to spread the plaster on the stucco AND on the wallboard fully, like buttering 2 slices of bread, and then pressing them together. this should make sure that there is plenty of plaster in there and that everything is sticking. we'll see ... dan

I like this plan best; space for the air handler in a small room you can isolate, and using the opposite side of that front section for a keyboard room works too... Steve

Thanx Steve for the response. Long time no talk, hope all is well. Well since I posted Ive had yet one more basic design revalation. The only problem I still had with my last "final" design was I had to get duct work from "upper nook" to CR and ISO over the LIVE ROOM, which Im trying to have as high as possible. I was also looking for cost shortcuts. Sooooo....I reversed the floor plan one more time and got this In this rendition Ive got all lower ceilings on one side to solve any duct space problems. I have coupled the iso (again) for 2 reasons. 1) cost effective? and simpler construction. I dont feel this needs to be "super" isolated from outside world, for it will be mostly keyboards,vox and the occasional gtr amp.(If it saves enough money) 2)To not have to use xtra door so iso has 2 door entrance or change the direction of outer door thats already installed. Questions: 1)should I use a dble frame(even if coupled to structure) on lower right wall for the air space? 2)Use RC? or ISOMAX? The only contradiction with your post steve is that you liked the plan with the L shaped HVAC room. In this design I dont think that will work so well...If I can use the plan with the HVAC room just on top... ...considering the space above CR and ISO, I think this would be enough. Also, I can put returns in ISO and for CR Ill put it in the new "closet" What do you think? I think I can live with lesser ISO if its financially benificial. Less doors in this design. Better "attic/duct space". Maybe venting "bottom half attic" with unvented above LIVE ROOM better now?..OR...Leave it unvented attic as planned and vent AC room. Ive found a product....http://www.ultivent.com/...where they vent fresh air into return only when AC is on and limit flow when AC is off.

Mike, are you OK with having to go through the live room to get to the control room? :?

ya im ok with that. every combonation has drawbacks and this is ok by me. (less interuptions hit CR)

Have you decided on a specific HVAC system, and can it be properly shock-mounted with your current plan? If so, and you've considered the need for larger ducting than normal (slower air velocity is much quieter) then it looks like you're almost there... Steve Oh, BTW things are fine; just trying to get some of my own "ducks" either lined up or shot :twisted:

i found this on google today. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/files ... en_266.pdf Is this a mini split with a return? Will it work? I know we talked about this steve, but remind if you can, do I need to AC (supply and return) the "unvented attic" above the rooms(between inner and outer leaves)? Will a temp and humidty guage in this "unvented attic" be a good idea to monitor it? De-humidifier? Will the AC room above "nook" need some sort of fresh air intake vent or just ventilate the room? Ive seen examples of unvented HVAC and many suggest a sealed room for AC, but where the new air comin from? So I think its a sealed room with a fresh air intake vent and an exhaust vent. Yay or nay? For the CR can i put the return in the closet/equip room if I dont seal the door crazy style. Vents blow air into CR, return sucks air from under door. Would this be quieter as well? How big is larger duct? RC the iso room? use coupled double wall frames for the airspace. Coupled to simplify construction and not interject another door to get in? I just dont know if the airspace is worth it or not if the wall is coupled? thanx mike-e-mike

mikeklooster wrote:

i found this on google today. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/files ... en_266.pdf Is this a mini split with a return? Will it work?

I don't see the "return." Am I missing something? :?

I don't see the "return." Am I missing something?

It says there is an optional return

VERSATILE: An optional return air plenum (12,000 to 36,000 BTUH) provides low air face velocity for quiet operation. The 48,000 and 60,000 BTUH models are equipped with the return air plenum and 1 inch aluminum filter as standard.

page 3 0f 4 Check it out, and I saw your idea. Ive been staring at those ACs because theyre everywhere and cheap. I hadnt seen a 2 hose. I think I could use this but id have to buy 3. For the Control Room could I put it in the Equip /Closet room to lower noise? I dont have to "seal" that door so much?

mikeklooster wrote:

Check it out, and I saw your idea.

(The idea he speaks of is here in the "HVAC - What to use? Is DIY an option?" thread.)

Ive been staring at those ACs because theyre everywhere and cheap. I hadnt seen a 2 hose.

Yeah, the 2 house deal is the thing that really grabbed my attention! 8)

I think I could use this but id have to buy 3. For the Control Room could I put it in the Equip /Closet room to lower noise? I dont have to "seal" that door so much?

One option you may want to consider, assuming the unit doesn't get shot down on this forum ;), would be to continue with your "chiller room" idea, but use two or three of those Soleus units in the chiller room an run ducts to/from each room with fans (perhaps those "duct booster fans" Steve's mentioned a few times) and silencers cycling air between habitable rooms and the chiller area. :roll:

things are getting close, so Id like to review again. Heres a new plan, which is seeming pretty final. Also here is my "outer leaf" plan... This will be sealed and unvented. The top front will be the area for HVAC. 1)Do I vent the HVAC room a)Just vented(maybe a fan)? or b)Vent a fresh air intake and exhaust into ductwork? The process of "beef up" and seal of outer leaf is still up in the air, to me. Heres my method and questions from my last review...

Method: 1)Seal any holes in outer structure A) Im filling in an old door( on the back of garage) A window on left side of diagram, two upper vents on back wall, lower side wall vents, and upper side vents found where the rafters meet the wall top. There is a crevice between every joist filled with a 2x4 on side, and three crevices are filled with vent screens. B) The upper side vents and 2x4 filled crevices should all be refilled with new 2x4s. If the top of the 2x4 needs to be cut to match pitch of roof for tight fit then do so. Seal with cock. C) Since the wall is (out to in) Stucco, cement board, vapor seal, and then studs. I should 1)Repair any damaged vapor seal. 2) Attach 5/8" drywall in between studs to outer wall(vapor seal). Cock on out side of drywall (touching vapor seal). Leaving 1/8 to 1/4" gap between edge of drywall and stud for cock. 3) Lock in drywall by screwing wood edges into stud sideways pinching drywall flat on outer wall. Cocking all around 4) If any uneven surfaces, mud to smooth before attaching drywall. 5)Check and remove any nails coming through plywood in ceiling.(havent seen any yet). 6) Attach drywall between rafters just like walls 7) Be careful to seal where ceiling , upper side vent 2x4s and wall drywall meet. Questions: 1) its Ok to attach drywall to ceiling plywood? It wont rot? Use wood instead?(steve said drywall is cheaper and just as good) 2) When attaching drywall do I cock contact side?(I think i remember YES)Glue? Acoustic Glue?(probably to costly for performance) 3) how flat does the drywall have to lay to be part of outer leaf? When or how bad does it have to be to warrant mudding first? 4) Should I use dehumidifiers or any thermostat( or the one that reads humidity) to keep tabs on my structure?

its from an earlier post with lots of info and pics if you need to see it? I have bulging stucco on the inside of my walls. My neighbor suggested I use a spray foam insulation to level and then apply drywall beefup. Is this a good idea? The beef up is costly and time consuming. Is the effort worth it? If it is, can I skip either the ceiling or walls? Im just lazy and cheap and if there is a spot to skip to save time, money and effort, this would be the best.(nice dreamin, huh?) Also, Ive been digging for deals on parts, and Ive found a couple of deals, if I can use them. I can get OSB(not sure of the thickness yet) for $6 a sheet, and 1/2" drywall for cheap. Is there anywhere I can use this stuff.e.g.the second layer of the three layers of drywall(either OSB or 1/2" drywall). Or how about the less critical Iso booth. What would be better..Solid doors or hollow filled with sand? Thanx again all, mike

mikeklooster wrote:

I have bulging stucco on the inside of my walls. My neighbor suggested I use a spray foam insulation to level and then apply drywall beefup. Is this a good idea? The beef up is costly and time consuming. Is the effort worth it? If it is, can I skip either the ceiling or walls? Im just lazy and cheap and if there is a spot to skip to save time, money and effort, this would be the best.(nice dreamin, huh?)

As I mentioned in a PM just now, definitely get in touch with Dan and learn as much as you can about what he's been going through. You two are "brothers from another mother" in this regard. I'm certain that the "spray foam insulation" will not do anything in terms of isolation. I realize you're just trying to level out the surface though. I honestly don't know if that's wise from a moisture perspective. What I would like to know, for your sake, is whether or not you can get away with simply adding double the mass to your inner leaf instead of adding mass to your outer leaf. Since it will be much easier to add mass to the inner framing (since it's straight), I wonder if that would be sufficient. In other words, what if you did 4-layer inner leaf walls/ceilings and did not beef up your outer leaf at all? Good idea? :?:

What would be better..Solid doors or hollow filled with sand?

I vote for solid doors with the best seals you can get your hands on. We'll see what the "real" experts have to say about these things (and the other questions you raised). --Keith

What I would like to know, for your sake, is whether or not you can get away with simply adding double the mass to your inner leaf instead of adding mass to your outer leaf. Since it will be much easier to add mass to the inner framing (since it's straight), I wonder if that would be sufficient. In other words, what if you did 4-layer inner leaf walls/ceilings and did not beef up your outer leaf at all? Good idea?

"beef up" ceiling and only hang 3 layers, but do 4 on walls. hows that sound?(hopefully not at all) Also, Steve had suggested sistering rafters with 2x8's and adding collar ties to every new rafter.Since My roof only has to support the rec room ceiling, my contractor suggested just adding collar ties to the rafters that dont have them(its every other one now). This would be great, but will it hold 3 layers? Or could I meet it half way and just sister in rec room and still add the collar ties? Please say yes, and please mean it. Im lazy, Im a musician, and I hate work.

hi mike, ok here's a crazy idea. maybe you can have somebody come in and "spray on" some kind of concrete mix on the inside of your outer leaf, sort of like i've seen done against dirt as sort of a "spray on" retaining wall in road construction. also swimming pool construction uses a spray on stuff that will stick to vertical. how crazy is that. ok, stupid idea. i like keith's idea of just making a massive inside leaf, and leaving the outer leaf. the spray foam idea isn't that bad. what would you do, spray a section betwen the studs and then press some wallboard on top before it hardens? you'd need to be able to apply large amounts quickly and evenly though i bet. what kind of foam are you talking about? not just the kind in cans, that would be too hard i think. i wonder how adhesive that stuff is. would it bond the wallboard (or osb) to the stucco at all? dan

Mike, went looking for specs on your roof yesterday and ran out of time; can you re-post (or link) to the page I need? Just need rafter size, span, and what's on the outer roof - thanks... Steve (seems like I was concerned about span with the amount of weight, and the non-truss situation - don't remember exactly, sorry...)

This is my specs. its a 22 wide garage with a 12'x4' pitch at (at 11' wide is a little short of 4' high) I have a 2x8" center beam with 2x6" rafters every 24". The 2x10"collar ties are moved so the bottoms are about 2'(or halfway) up. The roof is top down...New roofing( standard sheets?), vapor barrier,old roofing,old vapor barrier(probably not toally sealed),plywood(1/2" to 3/4" sound right?). If you were refering to the unvented page it here... http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... Design.pdf and here... http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... efault.htm Also dan had a great idea of some kind of spray cement for a beef up. ive found some companies and will call but if anyone has an idea???

Ive talked to a rep at Quickrete http://www.quikrete.com/diy/RestoringCo ... Walls.html about a product called Quikwall and he said I can just trowel it in between studs for my "beef up". Its available at lowes and orchard. He advised a adhesive agent first. I was a little confused about the vapor part. I thought the studs should not come in contact with cement without vapor barrier. It wont stick to it though so Id have to cut inbetween studs. It will contact the sides of the studs. Wil this rot? ANy Ideas? I think this would be rather easy. Also, for the last post, Id love to use 2x6 to sister 2x6 rafters,(steve recommended 2x8). Just my cheap, lazy side double checkin

mikeklooster wrote:

Ive talked to a rep at Quickrete http://www.quikrete.com/diy/RestoringCo ... Walls.html about a product called Quikwall and he said I can just trowel it in between studs for my "beef up".

That looks ideal, Mike! Dan, you seeing this?

I was a little confused about the vapor part. I thought the studs should not come in contact with cement without vapor barrier. It wont stick to it though so Id have to cut inbetween studs. It will contact the sides of the studs. Wil this rot?

I'm not the expert on this, but I think Dan's got the right idea with the way he cut his paper and allowed it to wrap around the studs. Perhaps you could do the same and staple the paper to the face of the stud (the thin edge closest to you as you're facing the inside of the wall). :roll:

Also, for the last post, Id love to use 2x6 to sister 2x6 rafters,(steve recommended 2x8). Just my cheap, lazy side double checkin

I would think you would not want to take any chances with the height of your joists. :? Go with 2x8s to be safe.

I'm not the expert on this, but I think Dan's got the right idea with the way he cut his paper and allowed it to wrap around the studs. Perhaps you could do the same and staple the paper to the face of the stud (the thin edge closest to you as you're facing the inside of the wall).

The man said it will not bond to the paper. Is bonding to the stucco enough, or even a good thing? Later he did suggest painting on an adhesive that they sell. If I paint vapor barrier as well, will it bond, does it need to? Heres a picture

Looks like a good plan to me, Mike. (me = a clueless dolt though ;-)) That's pretty much what I was describing -- cutting and folding the paper and wrapping the stud with it. However, I actually meant going further with the paper and stapling it on the edge closest to you, but as I think more about that, that would put the entire stud in a paper envelope and that wouldn't be very good I don't think... So I like your idea better (and I believe that's exactly what Dan is doing). I would think you'd be able to maybe go a little longer on it, though, almost to the edge, and then staple it numerous times so that it's held tight against the stud where the Quikwall stuff meets the paper. Seems like tedious work, but it looks like a winner. My gut tells me that it's probably better than the mortar plan that Dan started doing, simply because this stuff is formulated specifically to stick to stucco and concrete. Nice illustration -- continues to make this a really useful reference thread. :) --Keith

In my project thread, I described a plan to use the Fantech Heat Recovery Ventilator (model VHR 1404)...

Mike wrote:

Is this ventalation system quiter than an air handler. Since I have 3 rooms, and duct space, a more normal HVAC seems logical to me. I am worried about sound. If I vent my garage like you and use a multi zone split, would it be quiter, more efficient, cheaper or anything? I also read through Florians links and this one in particular http://www.chps.net/manual/documents/20 ... s/HVAC.pdf they describe two other HVAC methods that sound like possible options to me. 1.Hydronic Ceiling Panel System and 2.Evaporative Cooling System both have some interesting characterristics, what do yall think?

I grew up in a house with an evaporative cooling system (also known as a "swamp cooler") for the first 12 years of my life. They're pretty common in California because most of the warm climates here are dry. I don't think they would work well in your/our application for a number of reasons though. First, the ducts are huge. Second, they cool air by blowing it over cool water, which does cool the air somewhat but it adds humidity in the process. (This is why they're more common here, because we Californians can usually afford to add some humidity during the cooling process.) I would think that with airtight rooms, multiple warm bodies exhaling, and sensitive equipment, making the air more humid is the last thing you'd want to do. Finally, I don't think they can keep up with the heat we experience here in our part of California, where summer temperatures regularly exceed 100 degrees Fahrenheit. To top it off, I just don't like them. You can learn more about evaporative coolers on this cool page at the California Energy Commission's Consumer Energy Center. As for the hydronic, I really don't know. :? --Keith

mike, the sketch you made a few posts back is exactly what i'm doing. i am not planning to wrap the paper all the way around the studs either but i don't think there would be a problem with this because the paper breathes. i DO agree you don't want the mortar or quickwall in contact with the studs. the cement will keep the studs moist all the time i think. BAD. my plan is, after i finish my mortar layer, to trim the paper back to the mortar surface and caulk that joint. that way i'll get an airtight seal there. otherwise air/sound can leak around between the stud and the mortar. then my TENTATIVE plan is to paint the mortar with latex paint (breathable but somewhat water resistant). then finish to smoothness with drywall mud. then put up 2 layers asphalt paper. then 4 layers 1/2 inch drywall. i looked at the quickcrete link. here are my thoughts. it says it is waterproof, can actually be used in a cistern. this might be bad. because moisture that travels from inside to the interior of the wall may not be able to escape. although i don't know for sure if this is vapor proof or just water proof. maybe it can pass vapor while being waterproof :?: :?: i'm not convinced this is better than using mortar. neither mortar nor this product will stick to the asphalt paper, but both will stick to the old stucco. what's the difference? the Quickwall may stick more easily, but it may also be harder to mix properly. it doesn't seem like this stuff will magically apply itself 2" thick, it seems like it is applied in the same tedious way that mortar or stucco would be. so where's the benefit? although, it might certainly be worth getting a bag of it to try. what does it cost, a few dollars maybe. dan

but here's a thought. i'm not sure that i would do things the same way had i the chance to start over. because i think it is probably way easier to counteract the ill effects of small gaps between the stucco and the drywall with a couple more layers of drywall than to spend all this time smoothing out the stucco say you're planning 3 layers of drywall after smoothing out the stucco. why not NOT smooth out the stucco and just add 5 layers of drywall. which is better? which is easier? it's going to be WAY easier and faster to just add more layers of drywall than to smooth out this old stucco. i'm going to go ahead with it i guess, since i've already cut open my asphalt paper and all that ... basically i've gone too far down that road now to turn back. but i only have about 10 feet of wall to do, and Mike has, i don't know, 100 feet?? also, you don't have to worry about messing up your vapor retarder paper at all and that's a good thing. you leave the original system intact. and that's worth something. what i should have done, which i recommend mike do, is a thorough evaluation of how detrimental his wavy stucco is, what the cost is, versus what the effort is to fix it. and the potential problem of having a less complete moisture barrier. dan

Good points, Dan. My question remains open though, posted back on August 11:

I wrote:

What I would like to know, for your sake, is whether or not you can get away with simply adding double the mass to your inner leaf instead of adding mass to your outer leaf. Since it will be much easier to add mass to the inner framing (since it's straight), I wonder if that would be sufficient. In other words, what if you did 4-layer inner leaf walls/ceilings and did not beef up your outer leaf at all? Good idea? :?:

Point being, rather than risk gaps and "little third leaf effects," why not just add a whole lot more mass to the inner leaf walls?? :?: I think the answer might be: outer leaf resonance frequency would be too high. (Right? :?) If so, then here's another thought just to twist your minds around some more... Why not hire a stucco contractor to simply add another good thick layer of stucco on the outside walls?? :?: :?: :?: (besides cost, obviously... :roll:) Sorry, Mike -- this is all probably very mind numbing... But we are thinking of you, buddy! ;) --Keith

sharward wrote:

rather than risk gaps and "little third leaf effects," why not just add a whole lot more mass to the inner leaf walls?? :?:

i think this is putting too much weight on the third leaf thing and missing the big picture. i think the general principle is that you want two substantial leaves separated by an airspace. true, having little gaps between layers in the outer leaf is going to hurt performance. but it's going to perform a HECK of a lot better than not beefing up at all. sometimes this gets confusing, because we talk about resonant spaces amplifying. the performance will not be as good as it could have been given the materials used in adding layers. but it will be better than it would have been had you done nothing. which brings to mind an old saying: "Better to have beefed up, and created resonant cavities compromising optimal performance, than never to have beefed up at all."

sharward wrote:

I think the answer might be: outer leaf resonance frequency would be too high. (Right? :?)

leaves by themselves don't have resonance frequencies ... only mass-air-mass systems do. if you mean that the outer leaf would suck, then i agree. one layer of stucco isn't the worst thing in the world, but i think adding a few layers of drywall would be much better. dan